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YOLOsubmarine posted:Bad for whom? Everyone that matters
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Feb 20, 2018 00:04
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MacheteZombie posted:Just lol if you aren't a cspam poster ready to join death crew Oh, I'm ready and willing, I'm just aware it's gonna be a cluster gently caress. 
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Feb 20, 2018 00:04
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Arist posted:If this movie was really as antirevolutionary as this thread was making it out to be it wouldn't put anywhere near the amount of work in as it does to make the audience connect with Erik. the vision quest portrays him as a literal child for holding the positions he does
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Feb 20, 2018 00:06
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A theory to how Wakanda will ultimately play a part in Infinity War just occurred to me, forgive me if someone has suggested this already. The Soul stone is still unaccounted for and I'm wondering if it's in Wakanda, or under it rather. I think it would make sense if the Soul stone is at the core of the vibranium meteorite. Perhaps the creators of the stones chose to encase it in the strongest metal in the universe to protect it.
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Feb 20, 2018 00:06
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Arist posted:If this movie was really as antirevolutionary as this thread was making it out to be it wouldn't put anywhere near the amount of work in as it does to make the audience connect with Erik. It also puts a lot of work into making him a lovely person.
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Feb 20, 2018 00:08
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It's possible to sympathize with his grievances and motivations while also drawing a line at "the sun will never set on the Wakandan Empire."
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Feb 20, 2018 00:12
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At the decisive moment, the colonialist bourgeoisie, which up till then has remained inactive, comes into the field. It introduces that new idea which is in proper parlance a creation of the colonial situation: non-violence. In its simplest form this non-violence signifies to the intellectual and economic elite of the colonized country that the bourgeoisie has the same interests as they and that it is therefore urgent and indispensable to come to terms for the public good. Non-violence is an attempt to settle the colonial problem around a green baize table, before any regrettable act has been performed or irreparable gesture made, before any blood has been shed. But if the masses, without waiting for the chairs to be arranged around the baize table, listen to their own voice and begin committing outrages and setting fire to buildings, the elite and the nationalist bourgeois parties will be seen rushing to the colonialists to exclaim, "This is very serious! We do not know how it will end; we must find a solution--some sort of compromise."
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Feb 20, 2018 00:18
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Arist posted:If this movie was really as antirevolutionary as this thread was making it out to be it wouldn't put anywhere near the amount of work in as it does to make the audience connect with Erik. It makes us empathize with his pain, sure, but it also infantilizes him and says the right thing to do is to join the liberal order, which is inherently anti-revolutionary. It doesn’t matter if Wakanda establishes aid centers all over the world — aid and welfare allow capitalism (and its oppression) to survive by keeping things juuuuust stable enough to avoid revolutionary politics aimed at eliminating systemic inequality. And, what goes unspoken is that Wakanda gets to pick and choose who gets access to vibranium, which will likely lead to some other power issues that a Marvel universe won’t explore.
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Feb 20, 2018 00:18
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Crisco Kid posted:It's possible to sympathize with his grievances and motivations while also drawing a line at "the sun will never set on the Wakandan Empire." I think that's what made Erik a more complicated villain, though. Like, he had some solid ideas as long as you interrupted him before he really went off the deep end. I really enjoyed Jordan's performance and by the end of the movie it didn't really feel as black-white/good-evil as so many other MCU plots. I mean, sure, Killmonger bad and all, but the character was totally human in his flaws and his motivations.
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Feb 20, 2018 00:18
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ungulateman posted:the vision quest portrays him as a literal child for holding the positions he does This is some 1+1=1 level analysis that not only completely ignores the actual way that scene interacts with the narrative, but also the specifics of the scene itself. Him regressing to a child is him becoming vulnerable, and he hates it so much that when he emerges from the dream he's screaming with rage. It's not connecting his ideas with childishness, because not only are they patently not childish ideas, he didn't think those things in that form. It's drawing a straight line between the tragedy he suffered and his current outlook. The important line in that scene is the last one, "Maybe your home is the one that's lost," which is said by adult Erik. It's the best scene in the movie.
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Feb 20, 2018 00:21
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MariusLecter posted:Oh, I'm ready and willing, I'm just aware it's gonna be a cluster gently caress.  
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Feb 20, 2018 00:34
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lifts cats over head posted:A theory to how Wakanda will ultimately play a part in Infinity War just occurred to me, forgive me if someone has suggested this already. The Soul stone is still unaccounted for and I'm wondering if it's in Wakanda, or under it rather. I think it would make sense if the Soul stone is at the core of the vibranium meteorite. Perhaps the creators of the stones chose to encase it in the strongest metal in the universe to protect it. I just want M'Baku to have it because I know him telling Thanos to eat poo poo would be a fun scene even if it has to end with My Giant Husbando getting wrecked. Xander B Coolridge posted:Genuinely curious about what the unsarcastic endpoint is in this worldview. Traditionally the answer is 'while violence is a difficult place to be at and no one should ENJOY it, sometimes a people who've spent generations being oppressed and dehumanized can only make a change that lasts if their oppressors fear that one day they could rise up against them and violently overthrow them'. Most violent revolutionaries don't actually enjoy it in some sense of "LOL WE WIN NOW" but more use violence as a tool to show a normally safe and coddled oppressor class that their concerns are life or death and thus something they're willing to die or kill for.
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Feb 20, 2018 00:42
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Crisco Kid posted:I've also read some interesting discussion about Nakia's approach being a refutation of the imperialist, toxic masculinity of Killmonger. Her character introduction shows her literally freeing kidnapped women, I also love that she intervened to show mercy to one of their captors, helping T'challa recognize that he was also just a victim of the hosed up cycle of violence. Contrast that with Kilmonger, who literally plans to not only kill the people he sees as oppressors, but to kill their children as well to mmake the price too high to ever stand against him.
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Feb 20, 2018 00:56
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Just saw it. I liked it, I thought the action was good, the character bits were good, the villain had a bit more development than most Marvel movies. Not quite sure how Wakanda got so rich though if they don't export their incredibly valuable metal or any of their technology. Like, isn't trade the basis for economic power? Or are they completely self-sufficient, and the metal helps them grow super-crops and have super-medical science and education, etc. etc.
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Feb 20, 2018 01:02
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My problem with the small steps taken at the end of the film is it seems that in the MCU you can have: super soldiers, alien invasions, super-speed, shrinking technology, a rage monster that gets mass from nowhere and returns it to the same place when calm, a secret society of super Nazis, flying aircraft carriers, real Norse gods, Ragnarok, full AI, a metal that breaks all the laws of physics, FTL, a talking tree and raccoon, and finally a super advanced African nation that has been hidden for centuries. The audience has no problem accepting all this. But an actual revolution and change in the status quo? Slow down sport, that's too much! Baby steps! Reminds me of something I first read on this forum, "It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism"
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Feb 20, 2018 01:02
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I am...a bit confused about the positive reception to this movie. I found it to be a fairly mediocre Marvel flick. Reading some of the thoughts in this thread have made me want to give it a second watch. I am also not from the USA, which maybe has something to do with it? I don't know.
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Feb 20, 2018 01:21
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lifts cats over head posted:A theory to how Wakanda will ultimately play a part in Infinity War just occurred to me, forgive me if someone has suggested this already. The Soul stone is still unaccounted for and I'm wondering if it's in Wakanda, or under it rather. I think it would make sense if the Soul stone is at the core of the vibranium meteorite. Perhaps the creators of the stones chose to encase it in the strongest metal in the universe to protect it. Everything in the first Infinity War trailer seems to indicate that your theory is probably right on the money.
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Feb 20, 2018 01:36
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Tsyni posted:I am...a bit confused about the positive reception to this movie. But its also a AAA High Profile film that unabashedly celebrates Afrocentrism. Black audiences usually have to settle for the latest Tyler Perry effort to see something marketed for them, so this is somewhat of an event film. (Yeah there's some problems with its implications of Black American Culture that critics have picked up on).
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Feb 20, 2018 01:53
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People like it because it's really good
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Feb 20, 2018 01:54
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I think that calling Nakia's worldview -- that of earnest international outreach, philanthropy, and activism through non-violent means -- some sort of "liberal order status quo" is ignoring the fact that...this is not our current status quo. We are not actually doing this! Can we look at Trump's America, or the UK, or any other dominant world power and say that they are building bridges instead of barriers, that they are providing the right resources that refugees and disaster victims require, that they are in fact enacting the sort of diligent foreign aid that dominant world powers should by all rights be capable of? That we are interacting with one another or even ourselves with anything other than veiled violence and sometimes direct violence? You think our current status quo reflects Nakia's goals? It doesn't. It reflects the "gently caress you, got mine" Wakanda of old. Sometimes it even reflects Killmonger's methods (because, as was pointed out, Killmonger literally learned it from us). When Nakia talks about Wakanda being able to do outreach better than other countries, it's kind of an understatement because other countries are doing this A) not at all and B) through actual half-measures without the full unified support required for macrocosmic results. Perhaps Wakanda will also fall into the same pratfalls and shortcomings that other countries fall into in regards to international relations. And perhaps they won't. And perhaps the sort of aid that Wakanda will provide will outstrip other countries' by so much that you can't even consider it the same sort of system anymore. And perhaps it won't. Either way, T'Challa's appeal to U.N. isn't for them to just keep on doing the exact same thing they've been doing and oh also Wakanda will start doing the exact thing you're all doing now. He's saying that everyone needs to step up their game to actually put their whole unbridled efforts into helping each other out, and that Wakanda will be doing their part to lead that charge. ungulateman posted:the vision quest portrays him as a literal child for holding the positions he does BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 02:05
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Really good stuff about this movie: 1. The costume work is astounding - only flaw here was that the main character's actual super hero suit was overshadowed by anything else anyone was wearing at any given time 2. Easily most compelling Marvel villain played by a super charismatic and talented actor 3. Humor was integrated better than the entire last phase, i.e. you didn't have dumb jokes undercutting serious moments 4. Fantastically realized supporting characters with an amazing cast Stuff that was good but could have been better: 5. Boseman is kind of overshadowed by the other characters; I think this is at least partially because he is trying to figure out how to be king and what his own stances are, while the other characters each have a well defined philosophy (because they are acting to pull him in various directions while he is still indecisive) 6. Okoye is the best but is in this category because the movie should have been about her and she should get a spin off but she won't. Her warrior garb is also the best super hero suit in live action history which ties back into 1. Bad stuff: 7. The CGI was garbo, they should have just constantly done the rotoscope thing during the final fight because I was board when the CG puppets were flopping into eachother 8. Action scenes in general were a little long and the least compelling part of the movie 9. Disneyfied plot is what has lead to all the debate in this thread; I feel like Coogler still did an excellent job but its obvious he had to make sure things were pretty black and white morally
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Feb 20, 2018 02:08
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Arist posted:People like it because it's really good But have you considered that movie studios are, like, corporations, man? BrianWilly posted:I think that calling Nakia's worldview -- that of earnest international outreach, philanthropy, and activism through non-violent means -- some sort of "liberal order status quo" is ignoring the fact that...this is not our current status quo. Also this. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 02:09
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Guy A. Person posted:3. Humor was integrated better than the entire last phase, i.e. you didn't have dumb jokes undercutting serious moments I still hate this complaint, there's only like one joke in Thor: Ragnarok that actually undercuts anything. Guy A. Person posted:he had to make sure things were pretty black and white morally Also, I find this to be incredibly reductive. They aren't, at all.
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Feb 20, 2018 02:11
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this movie looks extremely cool and good and it's also hilarious how much the magachuds hate it so in conclusion i will give them some of my money thanks for listening
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Feb 20, 2018 02:11
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lifts cats over head posted:A theory to how Wakanda will ultimately play a part in Infinity War just occurred to me, forgive me if someone has suggested this already. The Soul stone is still unaccounted for and I'm wondering if it's in Wakanda, or under it rather. I think it would make sense if the Soul stone is at the core of the vibranium meteorite. Perhaps the creators of the stones chose to encase it in the strongest metal in the universe to protect it. No worries, been accounting that for a long time. It's how T'Challa and the Kings of Wakanda, are able to commune with the dead. I wonder if they allow others to do it or if its a special privilege.
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Feb 20, 2018 02:14
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For all the revolution talk, Erik is proposing the same or similar bullshit. It's going to be an endless cycle of this poo poo throughout time. The revolution gives way to new overlords resulting in the same oppression of some people who will self identify but no new genuine revolutionary thinking that guides man and the world to a better place, to better themselves, and usher in a new who through the very fiber of their being are good natured and woke enough to grow, learn, achieve, accomplish, and guide their fellow man and animal and universe to new heights and grounds. He's already defeated himself right from the start. His revolution is pointless. He will be overthrown after he becomes the oppressor.
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Feb 20, 2018 02:20
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But seriously, reading the CD Marxist "vanguard" try to out-edgelord each other with how much blood they want to see flow in their imaginary revolution is genuinely comical. Do you really think you don't come across as privileged little shits who are about as convincingly proletarian as Paul Ryan at a county fair?
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Feb 20, 2018 02:27
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sean10mm posted:But seriously, reading the CD Marxist "vanguard" try to out-edgelord each other with how much blood they want to see flow in their imaginary revolution is genuinely comical. Do you really think you don't come across as privileged little shits who are about as convincingly proletarian as Paul Ryan at a county fair? this is counterrevolutionary
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Feb 20, 2018 02:30
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Arist posted:I still hate this complaint, there's only like one joke in Thor: Ragnarok that actually undercuts anything. oh ok sorry for my opinions lol!
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Feb 20, 2018 02:33
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Guy A. Person posted:oh ok sorry for my opinions lol! (eh, you're right, I should have posted something more substantive)
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Feb 20, 2018 02:40
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I'm wondering if Star Trek's universe during the TNG-DS9 era is the closest thing to a realistic "utopia" man can get. It's a Federation of civilizations that are working together, that nearly to an individual level are empowered to make decisions that affect time, space, reality, their worlds and universe through some degree of guiding principles but are often shot down if a moral case for the betterment of a living being or situation is made, know how to sacrifice for each other, can still work together as a unit, and share technologies, ideas, etc. with each member race and come to their defense if necessary. It's not perfect, there's a ton of bullshit to get through, but in the end there's something working together for a greater growth and helping each other along and its not an empire or traditional dominance-manifest destiny to spread itself. There's ebb and flow, flexibility in their growth while other empires struggle to hang onto their power or grow it through force. In TNG its about man growing beyond his constraints to work together for the good of them all, in DS9 there's a more realistic bent that some kind of currency is needed, especially to interact with other civilizations, but the people still work together for a greater purpose.
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Feb 20, 2018 02:42
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What I was trying to get across there is 1. that I don't think comedy necessarily undercuts drama (and Thor: Ragnarok is honestly pretty good about this), and the one notable example where it does in that movie, the destruction of Asgard, fails less for that reason and more because the "punchline" is redundant, as the moment itself is successfully framed as both horrifying and comedic, so Korg's line immediately following actually kills the joke and the drama. It's just a bit too much. As for 2., I think that the discussions already had in this thread show that it's not really a black-and-white portrayal at all. Arist fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 02:49
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Arist posted:
I mean, yeah, that's what I was trying to get at and why I didn't respond more in depth, thank you for seeing that, I appreciate it. To answer more substantively: I liked Thor a lot but the "one" undercutting joke happens in the literal finale when the title character and his brother are watching their home planet being destroyed, unsure if the decision they made was even worth it and what they are going to do from here so its a pretty big spot to just have a CG character firing off awkward jokes (even if they were funny). Also there was the infamous Dr. Strange cape scene which was similar, and both GotGs pulling similar stunts, and even The Last Jedi getting flack for awkward and out of place jokes. It just seems like this has become a signature Disney/Marvel thing, everything gets a really similar tone and characters have a really similar "voice" (kind of sarcastic, "quippy", irreverent). I should have mentioned but tying into that it was refreshing that T'Challa himself wasn't wisecracking, and they left that aspect to his comic relief. And as for the morality I think that's a larger discussion already happening in the thread, and my overall point was that some of the edges had been sanded off by it being a Disney/Marvel super hero movie. Black and white probably was reductive tho, I'll cop to that. I just saw you beat me to this but it looks like we're back on the same page.
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Feb 20, 2018 02:55
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Gatts posted:I'm wondering if Star Trek's universe during the TNG-DS9 era is the closest thing to a realistic "utopia" man can get. It's a Federation of civilizations that are working together, that nearly to an individual level are empowered to make decisions that affect time, space, reality, their worlds and universe through some degree of guiding principles but are often shot down if a moral case for the betterment of a living being or situation is made, know how to sacrifice for each other, can still work together as a unit, and share technologies, ideas, etc. with each member race and come to their defense if necessary. It's not perfect, there's a ton of bullshit to get through, but in the end there's something working together for a greater growth and helping each other along and its not an empire or traditional dominance-manifest destiny to spread itself. There's ebb and flow, flexibility in their growth while other empires struggle to hang onto their power or grow it through force. In TNG its about man growing beyond his constraints to work together for the good of them all, in DS9 there's a more realistic bent that some kind of currency is needed, especially to interact with other civilizations, but the people still work together for a greater purpose. Iain M. Banks used to say he did his Culture novels as his idea of the best possible human society that didn't require fundamentally changing human nature (in this case, a bunch of hedonists looked after by benevolent god-AI and occasionally meddling in less-advanced civilizations and wondering whether their good intentions really made things better).
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Feb 20, 2018 03:10
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sean10mm posted:But seriously, reading the CD Marxist "vanguard" try to out-edgelord each other with how much blood they want to see flow in their imaginary revolution is genuinely comical. Do you really think you don't come across as privileged little shits who are about as convincingly proletarian as Paul Ryan at a county fair? Are you saying that we’re all part of an elite conspiracy?
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Feb 20, 2018 03:46
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Are you saying that we’re all part of an elite conspiracy? I'm just assuming you all are paid by the russians tbh
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Feb 20, 2018 03:52
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BrianWilly posted:I think that calling Nakia's worldview -- that of earnest international outreach, philanthropy, and activism through non-violent means -- some sort of "liberal order status quo" is ignoring the fact that...this is not our current status quo. We are not actually doing this! Can we look at Trump's America, or the UK, or any other dominant world power and say that they are building bridges instead of barriers, that they are providing the right resources that refugees and disaster victims require, that they are in fact enacting the sort of diligent foreign aid that dominant world powers should by all rights be capable of? That we are interacting with one another or even ourselves with anything other than veiled violence and sometimes direct violence? You think our current status quo reflects Nakia's goals? It doesn't. It reflects the "gently caress you, got mine" Wakanda of old. [/spoiler]) Just wait til Trump sees the movie has the Rose Garden torched.
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Feb 20, 2018 03:59
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Rand Brittain posted:Iain M. Banks used to say he did his Culture novels as his idea of the best possible human society that didn't require fundamentally changing human nature (in this case, a bunch of hedonists looked after by benevolent god-AI and occasionally meddling in less-advanced civilizations and wondering whether their good intentions really made things better). This is also the sort of future hinted at in Terminator with the alternate ending that Skynet is somehow taking care of some survivors and trying to rebuild human civilization in a utopia and repenting. But Banks' future is the future of Wall-E and that's not the kind of future that's desired unless man works with God-AI rather than leaving it to him/her to facilitate and be hands off. Man has to have a hand in developing himself/herself and pushing forward and keeping himself/herself maintained and growing.
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Feb 20, 2018 04:06
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BrianWilly posted:I think that calling Nakia's worldview -- that of earnest international outreach, philanthropy, and activism through non-violent means -- some sort of "liberal order status quo" is ignoring the fact that...this is not our current status quo. We are not actually doing this! Can we look at Trump's America, or the UK, or any other dominant world power and say that they are building bridges instead of barriers, that they are providing the right resources that refugees and disaster victims require, that they are in fact enacting the sort of diligent foreign aid that dominant world powers should by all rights be capable of? This is again an issue of doing the same things, but better. Foreign aid, international outreach, etc are all things that have been going on for decades. The argument is that they are ineffective because it was not done correctly. So what does it mean to do it correctly? Is having good enough intentions sufficient? How long should people who are suffering wait for the developed world to figure it out? sean10mm posted:But seriously, reading the CD Marxist "vanguard" try to out-edgelord each other with how much blood they want to see flow in their imaginary revolution is genuinely comical. Do you really think you don't come across as privileged little shits who are about as convincingly proletarian as Paul Ryan at a county fair? Most people have simply pointed out that the movie is anti-revolutionary. Whether that’s good or bad depends on your point of view, but it’s undeniably true. 100 years of arguing about slavery didn’t end it in the US, but a whole lot of bloodshed did, at least for a time. And when the federal government lost its nerve and walked back reconstruction it roars right back in new forms.
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Feb 20, 2018 04:09
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So, who's your one pick for a potential Best Supporting Actress nomination in this movie?
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Feb 20, 2018 04:17
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