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I don't think there is anything special about Ross being CIA. The writers wanted somebody from the other MCU films to connect Black Panther to the wider MCU, and Ross being CIA made him convenient. They have a good pretext for inserting him: both Ross and T'Challa are after Klaue, which is what brings them together. I would have gone with Maria Hill or Hawkeye.
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Feb 27, 2018 19:15
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Black Panther has more screen time and presence in Civil War than Ross does. I bet most audiences don’t even know who he is. I barely even remembered what role he played in that movie.
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Feb 27, 2018 19:44
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i am the bird posted:Black Panther has more screen time and presence in Civil War than Ross does. I bet most audiences don’t even know who he is. I barely even remembered what role he played in that movie. He flew the plane that shot down the other planes.
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Feb 27, 2018 20:02
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Ross being CIA is ok until he explains how American soldiers infiltrate and destroy other nations and everyone is just cool with that and moves on
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Feb 27, 2018 20:09
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Kurzon posted:I don't think there is anything special about Ross being CIA. The writers wanted somebody from the other MCU films to connect Black Panther to the wider MCU, and Ross being CIA made him convenient. They have a good pretext for inserting him: both Ross and T'Challa are after Klaue, which is what brings them together. I would have gone with Maria Hill or Hawkeye. Ross is a character created when the black panther had it's first real black writer who was then forced to include a white audience stand in character so they made him a whiney baby that is named after ross from friends. He's in the movie because he's the guy from the comics.
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Feb 27, 2018 20:10
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Unmature posted:Ross being CIA is ok until he explains how American soldiers infiltrate and destroy other nations and everyone is just cool with that and moves on I mean the rulers of Wakanda know already.
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Feb 27, 2018 20:11
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Ross is a character created when the black panther had it's first real black writer who was then forced to include a white audience stand in character so they made him a whiney baby that is named after ross from friends. He's in the movie because he's the guy from the comics. Dennis Cowan was the first "real black" writer of Black Panther. Priest made the decision independently to make the POV character in his Black Panther run a clueless white guy.
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Feb 27, 2018 21:15
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Kurzon posted:I don't think there is anything special about Ross being CIA. The writers wanted somebody from the other MCU films to connect Black Panther to the wider MCU, and Ross being CIA made him convenient. They have a good pretext for inserting him: both Ross and T'Challa are after Klaue, which is what brings them together. I would have gone with Maria Hill or Hawkeye. You've got it backwards. Ross is there because he's a significant character in the most critically acclaimed run of Black Panther. He was in Civil War for the same reason T'Challa was; to establish the character for Black Panther.
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Feb 27, 2018 21:37
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Dexo posted:I guess if you think the drone thing that Shuri explicitly says she dumbed down into something he would understand is "advanced" And their advanced Vibranium weapons are just the same sharp poo poo we've been using for thousands of years, just more advanced. Also, are you honestly loving saying that a remote piloted fighter plane with a small enough delay that it could be used in a dogfight piloted from a holographic control panel built around sand that can form any shape and/or hardness isn't advanced? sean10mm posted:They were marginalizing the white dude with a task that was important on paper, but also clearly a sideshow disconnected from the main narrative that the important (black) characters all participated in. Yes, I often marginalise people by giving them the task that the whole thing depends on. See, they've got time to defeat Erik, but, as the film makes clear, it's a problem if the weapons get beyond the border. I don't know why that's such an important barrier, but they say it is, and it's their movie.They can kill Erik, but if the weapons get out, a lot of the consequences of his plan still happen even with him absent. Dexo posted:He didn't do anything but jump into the thing Shuri created. James Bond just uses the poo poo Q comes up with. He's also given the job because, in the words of the film, he is an excellent pilot. The only other pilot in the movie is the General, who's at the battle. Dexo posted:Yes it is. So, are you saying Suri is marginialised in that scene? Are we supposed to regard her as unimportant? Kurzon posted:I don't think there is anything special about Ross being CIA. You don't think there's anything special about Ross being CIA in a movie called Black Panther Dexo posted:I mean the rulers of Wakanda know already. Then why have him explain it? Were you unclear on what Erik was doing? Do you think anyone else was? gently caress, we are at the point where people are arguing that the massive, elaborate CGI chase scene, the one that actually stops the villain's plan, complete with booming soundtrack, is actually marginalising the character who does it. Are people this determined?
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Feb 27, 2018 23:15
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Snowman_McK posted:Are people this determined? Pot, kettle, lol
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Feb 27, 2018 23:23
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sean10mm posted:Pot, kettle, lol Fair point.
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Feb 27, 2018 23:26
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I would step away from the computer for a bit if the film is causing you this much distress.
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Feb 28, 2018 00:35
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is Ross related to General Ross & Betty Ross from Hulk?
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Feb 28, 2018 00:37
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Snowman_McK posted:See, they've got time to defeat Erik, but, as the film makes clear, it's a problem if the weapons get beyond the border. I don't know why that's such an important barrier, but they say it is, and it's their movie. So long as the ships are within Wakanda, they won't be detected because of the shield. If they get outside then even if the weapons don't make it to the agents, Wakanda's secret will be revealed. At the time T'challa wasn't willing to do that, so the ships had to be shot down.
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Feb 28, 2018 00:38
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Jedit posted:So long as the ships are within Wakanda, they won't be detected because of the shield. If they get outside then even if the weapons don't make it to the agents, Wakanda's secret will be revealed. At the time T'challa wasn't willing to do that, so the ships had to be shot down. The stealthy Wakandan ships that fly around constantly with impunity? Those will be detected instantly, the moment they cross the border that everyone in the film crosses repeatedly without anyone noticing? My point is that, while, if you think about it, there is no reason it actually matters whether they hit the border (maybe the drone piloting range, but they actually have ships that they could follow in) the film treats it as important, and saying that the scene marginalises Ross is a massive stretch based on nothing in the film. If you remove the shattering window, it works as a joke scene, a sort 'yes, you are totally helping' scene. I would have liked that. As it is, he's in danger, and he even refuses to abandon the position. I briefly thought they were going to make it a heroic sacrifice scene. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Feb 28, 2018 |
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Feb 28, 2018 01:15
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The ship thing is just uncomfortable because they killed Wakandans who were following orders from their rightful king when there were probably other options on the table. It might’ve been a more powerful scene to see Shuri concoct an on-the-fly (get it?) solution to disable the ships rather than kill her country folk. I’m not sure if there were actual casualties in the ground battle or if it was more like comic book incapacitation, but we know those ships kerploded. I think an air battle was more of an aesthetic choice, overall. This is more of a “the movie I wanted...” critique, though.
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Feb 28, 2018 01:52
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Isn't any criticism of a film 'the film I wanted' though?
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Feb 28, 2018 02:44
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Snowman_McK posted:Isn't any criticism of a film 'the film I wanted' though? I think that's more for when people want so much poo poo different that it's not even the same genre anymore. Like getting mad at how many people get shot in Hard Boiled.
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Feb 28, 2018 03:33
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McCloud posted:My question is, what is the goal of the outreach program he starrs in the US? Is it to better the lives of black kids? If so, isn't that increadibly ineffective? Like, the thing that's holding black folks down isn't a lack of education, it's a systemic and continuous effort made by society to hamstring and handicap black people. Starting a new school for black kids will not affect this systemic effort. The more I read this thread the more I get the impression that no one here has any idea what community organizing actually is or how change happens. Just giving services to black kids doesn't dismantle the system on its own, fair enough. But that's not the end game. Even Wakanda doesn't have the resources the bring down and rebuild the entire world's political and economic machine. You gotta get the community involved. But to do that you first gotta empower them Get them the things they need so they're not in a crisis - proper healthcare, legal aid, quality education, childcare. All of these things are the things that are available in a community center. And in the process of attaining those things, you must address the systemic and structural problems that are holding your community back. Get better representation in your government, your police force, change racist laws, get translators for ESL communities, all in the service of achieving concrete goals that will improve people's lives on a day to day level. It's an outreach center because the goal is to reach out into the community and get the entire committee to get engaged, the same way Erik changed T'Challa. Like the little kid at the end who was inspired by T'Challa on the playground. You need to totally change people's mindsets on what is possible. Once you have a large scale, unified movement, then you can start to get poo poo done. Is this blaming oppressed people for being oppressed? I argue that it's not - it's telling them that the story they have been told that they are powerless is a lie, and it's time to reclaim their power.
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Feb 28, 2018 03:48
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XboxPants posted:The more I read this thread the more I get the impression that no one here has any idea what community organizing actually is or how change happens. Then the film probably shouldn't have invoked a problem that it paid little more than lip service towards after killing one of its victims, rather than redeeming him. While working alongside a member of an organisation that has done more than its fair share to maintain that horrifying system. I mean, this is the film writing itself into a corner where they can't do nothing about the place Erik came from, but the film's energies are all directed towards stopping/killing him, and all the wonderful ideas about community organisation or pan-africanism get jammed into a two minute coda. sean10mm posted:I think that's more for when people want so much poo poo different that it's not even the same genre anymore. Like getting mad at how many people get shot in Hard Boiled. Do you think anyone's done this here? This isn't bait or anything. I'm not seeing it. I mean, I guess I'd sort of have to be to propose any solutions, because I think the film's messaging is fundamentally broken. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Feb 28, 2018 |
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Feb 28, 2018 04:58
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Snowman_McK posted:While working alongside a member of an organisation that has done more than its fair share to maintain that horrifying system. You know, a lot of the issues with the movie can be reconciled in one way or another, but... but, yeah. Yeah. I gotta agree with you on this. I just don't see how there's any reason they needed to have a CIA agent as one of the heroes. That alone throws such a wrench into any but the most cynical readings of the movie.
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Feb 28, 2018 05:09
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XboxPants posted:You know, a lot of the issues with the movie can be reconciled in one way or another, but... but, yeah. Yeah. I gotta agree with you on this. I just don't see how there's any reason they needed to have a CIA agent as one of the heroes. That alone throws such a wrench into any but the most cynical readings of the movie. I thought he'd be the villain, that Erik's whole thing would be his deep cover plan (it would also give that weird 'this is standard CIA operating procedure' line a reason to exist) and Erik would be redeemed at the end. But no. The CIA agent is a good guy and the wounded, tormented, angry young black guy gets stabbed in the heart. By his cousin.
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Feb 28, 2018 05:11
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Top Gun posted:is Ross related to General Ross & Betty Ross from Hulk? No, given that Martin Freeman is six years older than Liv Tyler, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for him to be a masculinized clone of Betty Ross. I don't think there's supposed to be a connection.
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Feb 28, 2018 05:38
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Yeah. The character's name, again, comes from Ross from Friends.
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Feb 28, 2018 05:44
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I think it really sums up the character of T'Challa that people will only discuss the principal antagonist and the "token white".
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Feb 28, 2018 06:39
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i am the bird posted:The ship thing is just uncomfortable because they killed Wakandans who were following orders from their rightful king when there were probably other options on the table. It might’ve been a more powerful scene to see Shuri concoct an on-the-fly (get it?) solution to disable the ships rather than kill her country folk. I’m not sure if there were actual casualties in the ground battle or if it was more like comic book incapacitation, but we know those ships kerploded. I think an air battle was more of an aesthetic choice, overall. If anyone would have a great escape system for an exploding plane it would be Wakanda. They all had Cobra parachutes.
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Feb 28, 2018 08:14
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There was a whole 'Q shows James Bond gadgets' sequence in this only it was about twice as boring as in the average James Bond film; pretty much sums up how inert the whole film felt really (one of the only good things, as I'm sure someone has already pointed out, was the swanky interior decor in Hanuman-land).
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Feb 28, 2018 09:48
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Rabelais D posted:There was a whole 'Q shows James Bond gadgets' sequence in this only it was about twice as boring as in the average James Bond film; pretty much sums up how inert the whole film felt really (one of the only good things, as I'm sure someone has already pointed out, was the swanky interior decor in Hanuman-land). That place actually gave me some ideas in the unlikely event my generation ever gets to buy a house.
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Feb 28, 2018 10:24
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XboxPants posted:The more I read this thread the more I get the impression that no one here has any idea what community organizing actually is or how change happens. I'm a gay white middle-class dude born and raised in a socialist wonderland,. You do the math on that one, chief. I don't know the meaning of the word "struggle", and everything I write has to be filtered through the lens of "privileged white boy", so if my posts betray ignorance, I apologize and can only say that I'm always trying to learn. Having said that, yes, I am aware that emancipation from oppression starts with self-empowerment and education, so they can fight for their liberation, and that's all well and good, but it seems to me that this puts the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the victims, without saying anything about the actual oppressors. To me it says that it's their responsibility to end the discrimination and oppression, while leaving the true source of their discrimination remains mostly unremarked. The movie makes a few token comments about how black people are oppressed, which the white audience members can sort of rationalize as "other people". Like, they picture the alt-right goons in Charlotseville when they hear that, they don't think of every-day law enforcement officers, judges, teachers etc. They should be picturing themselves when Erik and his father are talking about the oppressers of black men and women in the US, but the vague way the movie comments on the nature of that oppression allows them to rationalize it as "those racists who aren't as enlightened as me, the white moderate". We even had some dude come in here legit saying "black people don't face any systemic oppression", which isn't only wrong, it's from my understanding what most white people in the US actually believe. The fact that the movie even has the token white guy that the audience can relate work for the CIA, an organisation that historically has been pretty poo poo to minorities, is even more damning. I guess what I'm saying, in a round about way, is that yeah, outreach centers are a good start, but its kind of...I don't know, offensive? that the real source of the black folks plight remains so unremarked upon. Again, I'm a white man, so maybe I'm just talking out of my rear end, but that's my 2c.
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Feb 28, 2018 11:07
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I finally saw this. The plot felt a little bit jumpy. As in it jumped from plot line to plot line. Also t'challa is a dirty cheater. The morale of the story being its okay to cheat so long as you believe you are the Good guy? Guy playing Eric was great, t'challa was good. Favourite character was the generals partner / rhino herder/border guard. Was an OK movie for a marvel film.
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Feb 28, 2018 12:10
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Snowman_McK posted:Do you think anyone's done this here? Not really.
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Feb 28, 2018 14:19
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I think the most important thing about BP isn’t supposed to be any message in the movie itself - it’s just another by the numbers marvel movie. How it could matter is as a signal to hollywood that a “black” movie can have main stream appeal and make millions in the box office, so stop being so aftaid of showing some diversity when casting this stuff.
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Feb 28, 2018 14:54
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I need a making of the original score with Goransson. Like the one for Childish Gambino Redbone.
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Feb 28, 2018 14:56
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Avalerion posted:I think the most important thing about BP isn’t supposed to be any message in the movie itself... How it could matter is as a signal to hollywood This is the most nihilistic social activism.
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Feb 28, 2018 17:05
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Avalerion posted:I think the most important thing about BP isn’t supposed to be any message in the movie itself - it’s just another by the numbers marvel movie. How it could matter is as a signal to hollywood that a “black” movie can have main stream appeal and make millions in the box office, so stop being so aftaid of showing some diversity when casting this stuff.
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Feb 28, 2018 17:13
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I'm not familiar with Black Panther- even less so than most comic book characters like, I had no loving idea who Peter Quill was before GotG- so how did Wakanda get so futuristic? I get that they had lots of Vibrainium but how'd they make the leap from spears to hoverships exactly? Did the fruit back then make people much smarter or was it aliens interacting as well? If the answer is just that Vibrainium is magic and you really start to notice when you've got more than enough of the stuff to smooth over the Grand Canyon and build a mountain on top of it that'd be fine with me.
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Feb 28, 2018 19:06
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McCloud posted:
Think about it like an abusive relationship. The abuser should be the one who has to change; but you can't make them, and they're not going to. You can only change yourself. Yeah, it's unfair, but it's the only power you have available to make your life better. If you're waiting for them to racists to stop being racist and fix things for you you're gonna be waiting forever.
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Feb 28, 2018 19:08
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RareAcumen posted:I'm not familiar with Black Panther- even less so than most comic book characters like, I had no loving idea who Peter Quill was before GotG- so how did Wakanda get so futuristic? I get that they had lots of Vibrainium but how'd they make the leap from spears to hoverships exactly? Did the fruit back then make people much smarter or was it aliens interacting as well? If the answer is just that Vibrainium is magic and you really start to notice when you've got more than enough of the stuff to smooth over the Grand Canyon and build a mountain on top of it that'd be fine with me. Imagine Tony Stark but he shared wealth with America instead of his bank account. temple fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Feb 28, 2018 |
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Feb 28, 2018 19:12
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RareAcumen posted:I'm not familiar with Black Panther- even less so than most comic book characters like, I had no loving idea who Peter Quill was before GotG- so how did Wakanda get so futuristic? I get that they had lots of Vibrainium but how'd they make the leap from spears to hoverships exactly? Did the fruit back then make people much smarter or was it aliens interacting as well? If the answer is just that Vibrainium is magic and you really start to notice when you've got more than enough of the stuff to smooth over the Grand Canyon and build a mountain on top of it that'd be fine with me. Not being colonized by Europeans. e: In literal plot terms, the vibranium is very important, but it's really just representative of all the natural resources stolen from Africa when it was being colonized (and after that). sean10mm fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Feb 28, 2018 |
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Feb 28, 2018 19:24
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XboxPants posted:Think about it like an abusive relationship. The abuser should be the one who has to change; but you can't make them, and they're not going to. You can only change yourself. Yeah, it's unfair, but it's the only power you have available to make your life better. Well sure, I get that, but the thing is T'challa has the power to do more than just teaching the victim how to stand up for hirself. And even if we accept that that this is the best solution at hand, he can still confront the abuser and call him out for being a piece of poo poo, you know? That is to say, I want the movie to more strongly condemn the systemic racism, instead of merely paying lip service to that effect.
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Feb 28, 2018 19:27
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