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ThatBasqueGuy posted:Same for locking automated survey behind a midish game tech, except that's horrible and wrist breaking Install this mod and never look back
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Mar 2, 2018 16:34
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Magil Zeal posted:The more I see the numbers being run on costs and how the mechanics play out in the game, the more I realize the 2% research penalty for each claimed system is bullshit. I'm honestly not sure why it's in the game, it seems very poorly thought-out. I need to figure out how to mod this crap out. Beta patch changed it to only 1% which is fairly minor for marginal gains but still provides a difference between wide and tall empires.
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Mar 2, 2018 16:38
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My current Megacorporation game (using the Grand Extrasolar Indemnity Company) is off to an amazing start. I made instant friends with everyone in my half of the galaxy. I am sandwiched between the strongest military power on this side of the galaxy and a hive mind who can ALMOST keep up with me, tech wise, and almost keep up with the other guy's military. I have defensive pacts with both. Any enemy would have to come through them to get to me. Now I've discovered that most of the east side of the galaxy is wide open. I was able to slip through the hive mind's space and start expanding up there, including a prime patch of size 19+ worlds, which I was really hurting for. My starting territory had one size 23 world (which was not compatible), one 16-size world, and the rest were all 12s or less. Gross. I now have at least five alien species within my empire, thanks to events and migration treaties. I'm able to settle every planet type thanks to Droids, plus one of my species is adaptive. My tech lead is huge and getting bigger. I'm going to consolidate, build a couple of science-focused planets to compensate for the expansion, then look into another round of expansion into the core-ward side of my new colonies. There's a patch of six size 22+ worlds there. So far the only hostile empire that I've found is a Devouring Swarm in the far galactic north, literally as far from my core worlds as they could possibly be.
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Mar 2, 2018 16:39
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axeil posted:Beta patch changed it to only 1% which is fairly minor for marginal gains but still provides a difference between wide and tall empires. 2.0.2 changed the Tradition cost penalty to 1%, not the research cost penalty. And this doesn't have anything to do with wide versus tall, don't bring that stupid poo poo in here.
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Mar 2, 2018 16:44
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Magil Zeal posted:And this doesn't have anything to do with wide versus tall, don't bring that stupid poo poo in here. Uh, what
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Mar 2, 2018 16:49
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GotLag posted:Uh, what Wide versus tall as divergent playstyles is a bullshit concept. The ideal empire is both wide and tall. It's about priorities, not two divergent paths. Do I spend my resources on constructing a building, or building a starbase to claim another system. That kind of decision. Not the decision between "well I will never expand" or "I will never build a building". In any case, the problem is the 2% research penalty, combined with energy maintenance, makes it so that a lot of stars will simply never pay back the cost you invest to expand into them. Many of them actively hurt your empire. That doesn't support either "wide" or "tall" play.
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Mar 2, 2018 16:52
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Apologies if it's been covered, but has 2.0 broken leviathans? I'm on my first playthrough of 2.0 on a medium map -- and absolutely 0 leviathans. Even found some curators, and cannot pay them the old 200 energy to locate a leviathan.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:03
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:Same for locking automated survey behind a midish game tech, except that's horrible and wrist breaking Automatic surveying is often the second tech I roll, it's far from midgame. Magil Zeal posted:Wide versus tall as divergent playstyles is a bullshit concept. The ideal empire is both wide and tall. It's about priorities, not two divergent paths. Do I spend my resources on constructing a building, or building a starbase to claim another system. That kind of decision. Not the decision between "well I will never expand" or "I will never build a building". They will pay back the cost in ships to shoot down the pirates that keep spawning in them, however. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 17:04
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Magil Zeal posted:Wide versus tall as divergent playstyles is a bullshit concept. The ideal empire is both wide and tall. It's about priorities, not two divergent paths. Do I spend my resources on constructing a building, or building a starbase to claim another system. That kind of decision. Not the decision between "well I will never expand" or "I will never build a building". Wide vs tall in stellaris is the choice between “wide, then tall” or “tall, then wide”. That absolutely is an important decision to make. It’s not like you can OCC to a cultural victory after all.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:04
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Is the Precursor event broken again? I'm at year 330 and i only found 2/6, I really like this event so it's sad to see it gone again. And anomaly survey for the science ships is sort of lackluster now. In the old version, i could just close border with everyone, and as i conquered, i could survey every single system myself, and find a billion anomalies  Now everything is surveyed in the first 20 years. and, this is the 2nd time i choose 5 fallen empires in my game, and i got 2 this game (1000 star game) and 3 last time. It's annoying when you play such a long game on a large map, to find out hours into the game, that your mid game challanges aren't there.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:04
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Magil Zeal posted:Wide versus tall as divergent playstyles is a bullshit concept. The ideal empire is both wide and tall. It's about priorities, not two divergent paths. Do I spend my resources on constructing a building, or building a starbase to claim another system. That kind of decision. Not the decision between "well I will never expand" or "I will never build a building". Not all territory should give material benefit and therefore measuring value purely in return on investment is a poor way to go about. Some territory should only be valuable for border security or strategic position. Some territory shouldn't be worth expanding into and holding at all. Empire management absolutely makes sense, the exact numbers may not be right, but getting rid of it entirely is both dumb and boring. e: Should probably turn off auto-complete on my cell phone as it messes up everything I try to type in english. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 17:07
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hobbesmaster posted:Wide vs tall in stellaris is the choice between “wide, then tall” or “tall, then wide”. That absolutely is an important decision to make. It’s not like you can OCC to a cultural victory after all. Not really. Pre-2.0, the whole "tall" thing was actually just "wide" by another name, as it still involved claiming vast swathes of territory to exploit the resources therein, just without colonizing planets. Post-2.0 it's just more of a novelty, intentionally handicapping yourself for a different kind of game. Which is fine, you knew what you were doing going into it after all. Again, that doesn't have anything to do with the 2% research penalty though. What that encourages is spreading out as much as you can, and then in the midgame, deleting starbases that hurt you more than help you. So you end up with a swiss cheese empire. Randarkman posted:Not all territory should give material benefit and therefore measuring value purely in return om investment is a poor way to go about. Some territory should only be valuable for border security or strategic position. Some territory shouldn't be worth expanding into and holding at all. Empire management absolutely makes sense, the exact numbers may not be right, but getting tid of it entirely is both dumb and boring. No. All space should be beneficial in some manner, or else why is it there at all? To be a trap option? Take a star that provides 2 physics research. What good is that when it will increase your tech cost so that 2 physics research never actually helps you, but instead hurts you? Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 17:11
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Magil Zeal posted:Not really. Pre-2.0, the whole "tall" thing was actually just "wide" by another name, as it still involved claiming vast swathes of territory to exploit the resources therein, just without colonizing planets. Post-2.0 it's just more of a novelty, intentionally handicapping yourself for a different kind of game. The "tall" thing was building up your capital and blitzing through the tech/unity tree. Then you build a science nexus, and then you explosively expand. Tall, then wide.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:13
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Descar posted:Is the Precursor event broken again? I'm at year 330 and i only found 2/6, I really like this event so it's sad to see it gone again. it works, but it might take a while for it to show up if you run out of scannable things in my 2.0 game, I found the last piece of the thing in an allied neighbour's museum 
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Mar 2, 2018 17:13
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Are you spawning the max number of possible AI empires? The game can't handle it even on a max sized map, which is why they dropped the cap in 1.8-ish. Basically to get max fallen empire and max marauders (I only keep marauders at one) with normal Leviathan spawns, the ideal seems to be in the low to mid 20s.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:14
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hobbesmaster posted:The "tall" thing was building up your capital and blitzing through the tech/unity tree. Then you build a science nexus, and then you explosively expand. Tall, then wide. You forgot the part where you claimed tons of systems with frontier outposts. Wide.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:14
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Descar posted:Is the Precursor event broken again? I'm at year 330 and i only found 2/6, I really like this event so it's sad to see it gone again. I had the same experience in my first 2.0 game, sorta. Got one artifact early, and it took until after 2400 to finally get the rest sent to me via the various events that are there to prevent the chain from never resolving.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:18
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Magil Zeal posted:No. All space should be beneficial in some manner, or else why is it there at all? To be a trap option? Some space will (and should I think) only be valuable in a sense relative to strategic position (for an example holding it can help you shut out a rival or establish a stronger defensive line) or for maintaining internal security (keeping down pirate spawns that is currently), and thus they will only be valuable given such a situation arises. I say don't expand into that space if it is not beneficial to you. End of story really. I agree that the numbers likely need tweaking and the in-game documentaton about the costs of expansion could be better, but I absolutely disagree with you that a territorially bigger empire should just be better in absolutely everything and keep snowballing forever (not that that isn't the case now, really, I have experienced little to indicate that bigger empires simply aren't more powerful than smaller ones, especially in a simple brute force kind of way).
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Mar 2, 2018 17:25
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Bedshaped posted:One thing I have no idea about is the whole War Fatigue, I feel like someone needs to post a comprehensive guide on it. I don't understand how I'm winning the war, taking over territories and defeating fleets but I have 100% exhaustion on the left-hand side, while theirs is only ~45%. "Mrs. Bleebleblok, I'm afraid to tell you that your child, Blikblattl, was among the casualties of the battle of Trappist. While the hippie protesters would tell you that over 75% of our forces died in that fight, let me tell you that Blikblattl died a hero alongside them. Though it may be of little comfort, let it be known that Blikblattl's sacrifice was not in vain, for the system was held." On the other side: "Today my brothers, we have scored many casualties in the daring raid against the heathens who rejected the light of Flokduk! Though there were losses of our own, each killed hundreds of the enemy as they crossed over to Draflnuf, the Hall of Honored Warriors. Let us feast to victory!"
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Mar 2, 2018 17:26
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Magil Zeal posted:You forgot the part where you claimed tons of systems with frontier outposts. Wide. If thats what you want to call it - everyone else that plays stellaris and posts on the internet calls an empire that looked like a thumbtack "tall".
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Mar 2, 2018 17:27
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Given that the game functionally requires you to claim systems to achieve victory I'm not sure "ah but you used the system claim function" necessarily counts as "playing wide".
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Mar 2, 2018 17:33
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Anyway, since you hate it so much. The file is "00_defines.txt" located in Stellaris/common/defines. Look for "TECH_COST_MULT_NUM_SYSTEMS" and set that one to "0". You're welcome.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:33
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Magil Zeal posted:2.0.2 changed the Tradition cost penalty to 1%, not the research cost penalty. Was research cost also scaling multiplicatively in 2.0 unintendedly, or was that just a problem for Unity?
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Mar 2, 2018 17:33
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Randarkman posted:Some space will (and should I think) only be valuable in a sense relative to strategic position (for an example holding it can help you shut out a rival or establish a stronger defensive line) or for maintaining internal security (keeping down pirate spawns that is currently), and thus they will only be valuable given such a situation arises. That space is determined by position rather than resources, so it still doesn't cover many situations. At best, you have a handful of systems that could be seen as strategically important, and they could well have lots of resources in them. It's an irrelevant issue here. I don't have a problem with space being strategically important or not, obviously, if that system that has nothing but 2 physics research in it is at a key chokepoint then it's worth claiming. That's not what I'm talking about though. Randarkman posted:I say don't expand into that space if it is not beneficial to you. End of story really. I agree that the numbers likely need tweaking and the in-game documentaton about the costs of expansion could be better, but I absolutely disagree with you that a territorially bigger empire should just be better in absolutely everything and keep snowballing forever. An empire with a lot of territory presumably had to invest a lot of resources to get to that point. If they're cutting corners, they're vulnerable. Those are the balancing factors. It's about investment and reward. Frankly I think the current system has it entirely backwards. Currently, that 2-3 research system will be fine early on because your research costs are low enough such that 2-3 extra research per month will benefit you. But tech costs increase, and the output of that station does not, so eventually it starts to hurt you. That is, in my mind, the opposite of how it should be. Instead, I believe it should hurt you early, but down the road be more powerful. Take Civ IV's model of expansion as an example. Cities had a scaling maintenance cost such that in the early game rapid expansion would bankrupt you. And even if it didn't bankrupt you, settling a city was always a drain in the short-term. It would always immediately be a negative. But as the game progressed and cities got more and more "free" trade routes it eventually got the point where a city would always pay for itself, even right after being settled. The tension was usually by then all the land was claimed by one empire or another, so you couldn't really delay your important expansion until that point. Stellaris does an okay job of this with planets, with the initial colonization phase but planets get better and better as you grow more pops, improve more buildings; the penalty for the planet stays pretty constant but the planet constantly gets better. Space stations are different and don't work like this at all, which is problematic. Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 17:34
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Oh btw, what are the requirements for the bonus civic technology now? I played up to 2400 and haven't got it for pick at all. Just bad rng? I did have the colonial thing.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:36
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Really Wish that non-assimilating non-exterminating robot empires had a way to deal with non-robot populations that doesn't involve turning them into batteries or making them space refugees. I guess I need to unlock vassalisation and then turn my xeno inhabity planets into a vassal state?
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Mar 2, 2018 17:41
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I really do have to reiterate that even if a system has no resources in it and no strategic value, it is still very much in your interest to claim it if it's within your empire because the cost of defending it against pirates far outweighs a 1% cost increase.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:41
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OwlFancier posted:I really do have to reiterate that even if a system has no resources in it and no strategic value, it is still very much in your interest to claim it if it's within your empire because the cost of defending it against pirates far outweighs a 1% cost increase. Pirates are a non-issue. If you have pirate problems I feel bad for you son, so far every time a pirate base has popped for me it's been a net positive. They haven't managed to kill a single one of my stations in my current game, and blowing up their stronghold is free resources. Just have a rapid-response fleet of quick-moving corvettes to slap down any pirates that pop, placed in key positions so they can be ready to react in just a few jumps.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:43
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Anyway. Just turn it off, dude. You just have to edit 1 number.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:45
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Magil Zeal posted:Pirates are a non-issue. If you have pirate problems I feel bad for you son, so far every time a pirate base has popped for me it's been a net positive. They haven't managed to kill a single one of my stations in my current game, and blowing up their stronghold is free resources. Just have a rapid-response fleet of quick-moving corvettes to slap down any pirates that pop, placed in key positions so they can be ready to react in just a few jumps. A rapid response fleet that you have to pay maintenence on and keep stationed there. They scale with your fleet power so if you're planning on prosecuting any wars you are going to have to devote a fair section of your army to patrolling these systems you don't want to claim. Those costs could be far better spent on literally anything else.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:46
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Magil Zeal posted:Pirates are a non-issue. If you have pirate problems I feel bad for you son, so far every time a pirate base has popped for me it's been a net positive. They haven't managed to kill a single one of my stations in my current game, and blowing up their stronghold is free resources. Just have a rapid-response fleet of quick-moving corvettes to slap down any pirates that pop, placed in key positions so they can be ready to react in just a few jumps. But that excludes the marginal maintenance of having that fleet out of the docks.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:46
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OwlFancier posted:A rapid response fleet that you have to pay maintenence on and keep stationed there. They scale with your fleet power so if you're planning on prosecuting any wars you are going to have to devote a fair section of your army to patrolling these systems you don't want to claim. Those costs could be far better spent on literally anything else. Pirates cap out around 4k at least.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:47
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Guilli I'm loving your mod and the planet infested by giant spiders is cool and suitably horrible but when they win and take over the planet, now they become space-going giant spiders cruising around the system they've just taken, and it's a little odd
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Mar 2, 2018 17:48
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hobbesmaster posted:Pirates cap out around 4k at least. I'm pretty sure my first game I ended up with at least 5k, it spawned a literal pirate galleon at one point.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:49
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OwlFancier posted:I'm pretty sure my first game I ended up with at least 5k, it spawned a literal pirate galleon at one point. I think thats where they top out? I only saw 1 galleon fleets in late game.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:50
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OwlFancier posted:A rapid response fleet that you have to pay maintenence on and keep stationed there. They scale with your fleet power so if you're planning on prosecuting any wars you are going to have to devote a fair section of your army to patrolling these systems you don't want to claim. Those costs could be far better spent on literally anything else. It's a fleet I have anyway for other purposes. It's not like I just never build ships, and pirates are going to appear at most points in the game anyway. I don't have the influence to claim literally every system even if I wanted to early on (I should want to, but I don't, which is part of the problem). So far I haven't had any problems waging war and defending my territory against pirates simultaneously. And if my other game is anything to go by, its not that big of a deal anyway. The pirates jump into one system, blow up the stations there, and go home. That's a loss certainly but usually one I can deal with, at that point. And it does not justify slowing my research for decades to come. crazypeltast52 posted:But that excludes the marginal maintenance of having that fleet out of the docks. Yes, it's a cost, but it's one I'm probably going to need to pay in some form anyway. You can get away with not having a fleet in some situations, but not many.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:52
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   The beta does some weird stuff with my save, but that last one is especially kind of annoying.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:53
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THE BAR posted:
I think the weirdest thing in my first 2.0 game is the Machine FE spawned with only the Alpha Refuge. I know they're supposed to have a few other systems, but they didn't. They only had a single system. The others were nowhere to be found.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:55
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You can trade a couple of research points for free use of an extra fleet and/or the cost of rebuilding stations and maintaining that fleet...
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Mar 2, 2018 17:55
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OwlFancier posted:You can trade a couple of research points for free use of an extra fleet and/or the cost of rebuilding stations and maintaining that fleet... Whazzat?
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Mar 2, 2018 17:58
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