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That episode was so stupid that I'm afraid If I started dissecting it I would become someone else, become something else. Dumb Favorite parts: Renee being hurt and Oliver trying to stop the fight, only for Renee to grab an axe and try to murder Oliver with it. A regular kick nearly kills him because he was fighting when he shouldn't have been and kept escalating the fight Oliver didn't want to have even though he knew he was hurt. This is Oliver's fault somehow. Curtis highroading Felicity when his team came to murder someone, started firing guns at unarmed civilians, shot felicity, tried to kill Oliver, assaulted Quentin, almost crippled Diggle by hacking his medical implant and caused the city to lose it's money.
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# ? Mar 4, 2018 21:49 |
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 03:50 |
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I would like to see them try a 13-episode season and it can share timeslots with Black Lightning.
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# ? Mar 4, 2018 22:20 |
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In fairness I'm not sure Quentin, Thea, and Felicity technically qualify as "civilians." But Its splitting hairs. As I said, I don't think we were meant to agree with the Outsiders. Everything up to that hospital scene showed that they were repeatedly crossing lines and knew it. They just ended up all self righteous because that's what they learned from Oliver.
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# ? Mar 4, 2018 23:52 |
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Well they all know that Thea has absolutely nothing to do with Team Arrow so attacking her is lovely.
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# ? Mar 5, 2018 00:12 |
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It absolutely was lovely. That's why I said it was splitting hairs. But like she's also a trained assassin/vigilante who has both Oliver and Merlyn's learning so could probably kick all the Outsiders' asses. Also she was part of the whole "protect the murdering psychopath" thing. So again... not quite "civilian" but "splitting hairs" Ultimate point is everyone's lost perspective.
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# ? Mar 5, 2018 00:19 |
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STAC Goat posted:I don't think the Outsiders were really meant to be presented in a more sympathetic light. Curtis clearly knew he was crossing a line with Diggle and the whole narrative was about both teams just crossing line after line with each other. I don't know, I think they were supposed to be sympathetic, which is stupid. They cross lines, but the only time they (and the show) even acknowledge it is the John thing. Stuff like bugging Oliver is (as written) supposed to be seen as a clever ploy, not as another betrayal of trust. Otherwise they just go "oooh that darn Oliver is so distrustful " while Rene and Curtis just kind of brush off Dinah's seething rage. It's just so goddamn stupid. That said even if it is corny, the one shining spot in this episode for me was Oliver going "I have failed this city".
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# ? Mar 5, 2018 03:52 |
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kay well that was stupid. Think I'm checking out until next season now.
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# ? Mar 5, 2018 06:39 |
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VictorianQueerLit posted:Curtis highroading Felicity when his team came to murder someone, started firing guns at unarmed civilians, shot felicity, tried to kill Oliver, assaulted Quentin, almost crippled Diggle by hacking his medical implant and caused the city to lose it's money. The highroading I found funny because if you would have talked to Wild Dog he would have just said some poo poo like "Hoss, we were fighting and poo poo happens next time maybe it'll be you in this bed this changes nothing"
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# ? Mar 5, 2018 06:52 |
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TwoPair posted:I don't know, I think they were supposed to be sympathetic, which is stupid. They cross lines, but the only time they (and the show) even acknowledge it is the John thing. Stuff like bugging Oliver is (as written) supposed to be seen as a clever ploy, not as another betrayal of trust. Otherwise they just go "oooh that darn Oliver is so distrustful " while Rene and Curtis just kind of brush off Dinah's seething rage. It's just so goddamn stupid. Well the bugging wasn't treated as a line to cross because Team Arrow already crossed that line. So from the Outsiders' perspective they were just matching. The Diggle thing was a new line being crossed for either team and was treated that way by both sides. I think we're supposed to sympathize with the Outsiders. Dinah is grieving and her anger at Laurel is justified, they're all right to be angry at Team Arrow for bugging them and not trusting them, and even Rene betraying Oliver was about his kid and Oliver acknowledged he might have done the same. And the episode ends with Rene hurt badly so it put them in the worse for wear position, which is how i think we end up getting them feeling the most wronged and Team Arrow backing off out of respect. But its kind of unquestionable that the point of the episode was that both teams were crossing lines and the big scene came with Curtis talking Dinah down from crossing another as their friends were all lying around hurt. The ending hospital scene just ends up being the last word said on the subject so makes it play like Outsiders having the high ground. But like, if we go by what we saw instead of what the Outsiders said I think we can all assume that they're still just as ethically challenged as they were mid episode.
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# ? Mar 5, 2018 16:17 |
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Sir Potato posted:I suppose I'm also in the minority in actually really appreciating how far off the deep end Quentin has gone with Laurel. It's super creepy and uncomfortable what he's doing, but as usual Blackthorne is pulling it off. TwoPair posted:I don't know, I think they were supposed to be sympathetic, which is stupid. They cross lines, but the only time they (and the show) even acknowledge it is the John thing. Stuff like bugging Oliver is (as written) supposed to be seen as a clever ploy, not as another betrayal of trust. Otherwise they just go "oooh that darn Oliver is so distrustful " while Rene and Curtis just kind of brush off Dinah's seething rage. It's just so goddamn stupid. You betrayed our trust by not trusting us! Rene betrayed us all by literally betraying us. Yours is worse somehow. You shouldn't murder Laurel, murder is bad! I'm definitely going to though. But what about the money we need? Well, maybe we can torture her first. But torture is also bad! I'm still going to do it. OK but you shouldn't kill her though. I already told you I'm going to do that. OK well let's go find her then! We're here to fight you and murder Laurel, even though two of us don't want to! I'm not going to let you murder anyone. Well you'd better not fight us when we attack you! I- what? *fight* I can't believe you fought us when we attacked you and stopped Dinah from murdering Laurel (even though we also didn't want her to do that)! We hate you even more now! STAC Goat posted:they're all right to be angry at Team Arrow for bugging them and not trusting them, and even Rene betraying Oliver was about his kid and Oliver acknowledged he might have done the same.
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# ? Mar 5, 2018 16:44 |
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Tiggum posted:
I think simplifying the Outsider breakup to the spying is missing the big picture. They were clearly angry that they were treated like second class members of the team and weren't trusted. And Dinah was worked up about all the Vigilante stuff. There were a lot of serious issues at play that all go back to Oliver's well worn character flaws, trust issues, and hypocrisy. And what really kind of made the divide was Felicity and Diggle being on board with him drawing a clear divide. Again, I'm not saying the Outsiders are in the right. Rene talking to the cops. Dinah protecting Vigilante and wanting to kill Black Siren at the cost of the city. Curtis hacking Diggle's arm. These are all clear lines they crossed and wrong actions. The show has said as much. But they split from Team Arrow because they all see each other as equals while they realized that Oliver, Felicity, and Diggle would never see them as partners on Team Arrow. I actually think that's a bigger hurdle to getting this team back together than all the line crossing stuff. Because like, no matter what happens going forward if Oliver says "yeah, it will be different this time" they'd be dumb to think he'll actually hold to that the next time he's tempted to keep a secret or divide lines of who he trusts.
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# ? Mar 5, 2018 16:54 |
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I thought Oliver was pretty open this season. He literally walked away from the group and let them run the show. He spied on a group of new guys when he found out there was a mole that compromised the entire team.
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# ? Mar 5, 2018 18:25 |
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Frankly the dumbest thing about the whole conflict is Curtis (and Felicity I guess) harping about them not sharing information. I mean no matter how you look at it, that is objectively bad for the city. Let them tackle problems differently if you want, but it is a Bad Thing© to let your crimefighting friends run around in the dark.
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# ? Mar 5, 2018 18:28 |
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I like how Joe Toy owns basically the entire City while the heroes are busy loving off with their personal issues. And I guess this episode answers a question I've had for a while; Rene's bullets I guess are non-lethal?
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# ? Mar 5, 2018 19:23 |
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twistedmentat posted:I like how Joe Toy owns basically the entire City while the heroes are busy loving off with their personal issues. Rene has always been a totally stupid member of the team, he has never brought anything other than "dual wields full auto pistols".
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# ? Mar 5, 2018 23:05 |
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My favorite part of the whole New Team Arrow vs. Old Team Arrow is that Echo Kellum (Curtis) tweeted after the episode aired to favorite for NTA and retweet for OTA and the ratio was overwhelmingly OTA. Like, I feel like everyone involved thinks they're producing some even-handed argument, but they're not. It's not even close.Mr Beens posted:Rene has always been a totally stupid member of the team, he has never brought anything other than "dual wields full auto pistols". Has it ever actually shown him hitting anything?
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# ? Mar 5, 2018 23:30 |
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TwoPair posted:Frankly the dumbest thing about the whole conflict is Curtis (and Felicity I guess) harping about them not sharing information. I mean no matter how you look at it, that is objectively bad for the city. Let them tackle problems differently if you want, but it is a Bad Thing© to let your crimefighting friends run around in the dark. This is the CW though so the 30 year old former Olympic athlete needs to have a Taylor Swift "We are never, ever, getting back together" moment. "Renee tried to kill someone that didn't want to fight him and got hurt when they defended themselves. No more information sharing, I don't even want to hear your name." *cue linkin park song*
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# ? Mar 6, 2018 00:57 |
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Stupid thing that I don't think was mentioned yet. They obviously wrote the storyline of the team team breaking up wanting to have an awesome Civil War fight between the two. Then when they actually write the episode, they cripple Diggle 30 seconds before the fight so it's just another Oliver vs a bunch of mooks fight, like in every other episode.
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# ? Mar 6, 2018 04:02 |
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Mr Beens posted:Rene has always been a totally stupid member of the team, he has never brought anything other than "dual wields full auto pistols". Yea, he's basically the #1 reason I keep thinking "why am I still watching this show?" because he ads nothing to the show other than just being the guy who always is giving pushback against what ever everyone else is doing. "I'm going to get some coffee" " I don't think that's a good idea Hoss, you should be drinking tea" Its pretty bad that Legends is ten times better than Arrow now.
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# ? Mar 6, 2018 05:48 |
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Legends is amazing though, so that ratio seems about right.
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# ? Mar 6, 2018 05:55 |
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I liked Rene before the split. His job working for Oliver showed his growth and maturation as a person, he provided some non Felicity snark and light sarcasm, and he was a more effective fighter in the field than t sphere throwing Curtis.
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# ? Mar 6, 2018 06:00 |
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twistedmentat posted:I like how Joe Toy owns basically the entire City while the heroes are busy loving off with their personal issues. Hitler gets one of these right across the windpipe, Roosevelt changes Thanksgiving to Joe Toye Day, pays me ten grand a year for the rest of my loving life.
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# ? Mar 6, 2018 11:09 |
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The contrast when they all got ready to fight and Digg starts pointing a gun at people and Rene starts blasting away made me think of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epVpOAWa0pE
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# ? Mar 6, 2018 11:29 |
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WhyteRyce posted:I liked Rene before the split. His job working for Oliver showed his growth and maturation as a person, he provided some non Felicity snark and light sarcasm, and he was a more effective fighter in the field than t sphere throwing Curtis. Yeah, and he was actually good at his job working for Oliver. Like he turned out to be a charismatic speaker.
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# ? Mar 6, 2018 16:39 |
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6 seasons in and the villain is loving..... Diaz. I'm assuming season 7's villain wont be darkseid.
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# ? Mar 8, 2018 18:40 |
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At this point, I’m just hate-loving this show. :/
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# ? Mar 8, 2018 21:14 |
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Is Diaz from something? Or was he introduced this season?
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# ? Mar 9, 2018 02:39 |
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This Lance plotline is still real bad. "I'm changing her." Oh good, more League of worthless assassins crap. bamhand posted:Is Diaz from something? Or was he introduced this season?
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# ? Mar 9, 2018 04:44 |
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I miss even the tiniest bit of explanation for a scene like the cops watching Roy going out for a burger, Thea jumping through a clearly Diggle-sized vent after suiting up for the first time in a year because the vents are too small, and then a SWAT team shows up for absolutely no reason. The writers just stopped caring, I guess.
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# ? Mar 9, 2018 06:17 |
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This season is neck-and-neck with the back half of Season 4 right now. That half was a poo poo show, but it was an INTERESTING poo poo show. Oliver fighting his way through a goddamn underground Stepford Wives Suburban Bunker kept me wide awake. This has not.
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# ? Mar 9, 2018 06:19 |
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:This Lance plotline is still real bad. "I'm changing her." No, he totally beat up that guy just now, and told him that karate matches aren't the same as people actually trying to kill you, so you know he's a badass. What more do you need?
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# ? Mar 9, 2018 06:29 |
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Maybe it's just that anything would be better than last week messing with my head, but I actually thought last night was pretty good.
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# ? Mar 9, 2018 13:46 |
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"Hey Dinah and Lance, let's talk about the corrupt police INSIDE the police building!" Yes, I know they turned the cameras off, but still, that was stupid.
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# ? Mar 9, 2018 16:07 |
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It was and they were in an interrogation room I believe so someone easily could be on the other side of the 2 way mirror. VVV I think there was? I'll rewwatch it later. Digital Jedi fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Mar 9, 2018 |
# ? Mar 9, 2018 16:43 |
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Was there even a mirror in that room? Honestly though, I'm glad they're already addressing the corruption rather than saving it for some almost-end-of-season twist. I mean they'll probably treat it as a big reveal when they find out the commissioner is dirty, but still, it feels like the show is course correcting after veering way into crazy town.
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# ? Mar 9, 2018 19:12 |
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The Diaz stuff might have been better if he hadn't been such a nothing character in the first half of the season. Also Roy sure got beefy while "on the run."
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# ? Mar 10, 2018 03:01 |
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Dig yanking an arrow out of a dude, shooting him, then stabbing another dude with the arrow was pretty boss.
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# ? Mar 10, 2018 03:48 |
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They've seemed to abandon all pretense of Oliver only shooting to wound. He shot that one dude full in the chest.
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# ? Mar 10, 2018 04:33 |
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I think the standard for quite awhile now has been "No assassinating dudes if it's avoidable but when in a gunfight with private armies equal force is ok." I mean, Diggle and Rene have been carrying around guns for awhile now. Oliver doesn't have a "don't kill" rule as much as an "exhibit self control and don't kill as a first resort" rule. That was basically the resolution of the Darkh, Ra's, and Prometheus stuff. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Mar 10, 2018 |
# ? Mar 10, 2018 06:11 |
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 03:50 |
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I want everyone on this show who's not Thea or Laurel to go away... which is ironic because I think Willa Holland doesn't want to be on this show anymore either
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# ? Mar 10, 2018 06:13 |