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The brain is like, a computer
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Mar 8, 2018 05:11
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Is there any reason you're not talking about AI or computability, when your opponent is, and instead throw in another ad hominen dismissal of Stephen Pinker, which is a lot less relevant to the Westworld thread and doesn't belong here? Why you're doing so by pointing out that the outer psychology field largely isn't the biggest fan of computational theory of mind, when that doesn't contradict what I said: that famous psychologists like Pinker support it and the rest are wrong because, like you, they haven't put forward a good refutation to its points. And as a popular, accessible, and famous scientist he at least speaks to the level of those who believe pop science myths that brain science has done little this decade in the face of some big insurmountable mystery. I quoted that sentence because it's the one that made me  . I didn't realize I had to demonstrate familiarity with How the Mind Works before engaging. But for the record, I have read it. I've met Pinker; I'm familiar with his books and his academic work. In fact, it was How the Mind Works that inspired me to study cognitive science ~15 years ago. At some point, though, I was exposed to other approaches and now I tend to disagree with Pinker's theoretical perspective. It's still a valuable contribution. It was not my intention to dismiss Pinker. What I do want to dismiss is the idea that we've reached some kind of consensus behind his ideas and we can act that computational theory of mind is The One True Way. You're the only one being dismissive here.I don't know what you mean about "outer fields" and "my opponent". You expressed an extremely freshman-that-read-something-and-now-thinks-he-knows-everything attitude about my field and I felt like piling on  . It doesn't mean I disagree with you about computability or whatever. But hey, maybe we can make this educational. Let's talk about how the position you're staking out here is the weakest possible interpretation of computational theory of mind, so weak that it becomes trivial and anyone who disagrees is an idiot.The version of CTM that is most common, and is associated with Pinker, is (loosely speaking) the idea that the mind/brain is like a computer, and the best way to understand it is by trying to figure out what algorithm it's running. Meanwhile, the version of CTM that you seem to be arguing for is that the mind can be simulated on a computer. Which pretty much no serious scholar of any theoretical persuasion is going to argue against. It's more or less trivially true, unless you're a dualist I guess. If you ask "what kind of thing is a mind?" and you narrow it down to "it's the type of thing that can be simulated on a computer" then you haven't narrowed it down at all. The solar system can be simulated on a computer. The tectonic plates can be simulated on a computer. Nobody cares if something can be modeled on a computer or not; everything can. Pinker commits to much more than this. That the brain is computer-like, machine-like. That it can be understood by breaking it down into components. That the mind works by manipulating symbols. E.g. that we can see because the brain supplies missing information to resolve ambiguities and that we move by solving inverse kinematics and inverse dynamics (pp. 28-29 in my edition). What makes your posting particularly sophomoric is that this eye pulley research is a great example of the evidence that's been mounting against computational theory of mind. Maybe the brain isn't a control center, constantly calculating the correct forces to apply at any given moment. Similarly, the brain doesn't have to solve physics problems or make assumptions about the retinal array. These are the solutions that a mechanistic approach comes up with, but it has become pretty clear that that's not how the mind works after all. With one post you're touting computationalism as the consensus philosophy of mind; with the next you're touting research that helped break this consensus as an example of how much progress we're making. And if you really need me to take a position on the wider conversation, let's see... yes, the behavioral and brain sciences have made a lot of progress in the last couple of decades, but there are still a lot of outdated assumptions that are taking a long time to disappear, and a lot of bad science. No, we're not that close to Westworld-syle AI. That's not to say AI isn't making great strides. AI will probably revolutionize society many times over before we get anything like Westworld. That is, AI will exceed human capability in many domains but be comically deficient in others. This is because advances in AI will not be driven by advances in our understanding of the human mind. In fact, it is its potential dissimilarity to human cognition that makes AI so potentially powerful. We'll have to survive AI taking all our jobs before we have to worry about the humanity of AI. In the context of Westworld, I find it more plausible that an AI could run security or come up with narratives than that Maeve is an AI. All the stuff that human employees do around the park, we'll have AI doing those kinds of things before we have anything like the hosts. Finally, to get back to Pinker, I'll borrow one of your own rhetorical strategies and claim that the only reason you dismiss alternatives to CTM is that you aren't familiar with them. So, here's a book you might find interesting: Radical Embodied Cognitive Science by Tony Chemero. It lays out a solid, non-computational approach to mind and behavior. And if you're interested in anything more specific, particularly in perception or motor control (my own specialities) I can suggest a number of other sources (but we should probably take it off-thread). SurgicalOntologist fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 06:24
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Holy poo poo god drat when does the murder fuckbot show come back on the teevee
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Mar 8, 2018 06:39
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So it sounds like we agree on basically everything, except for the meaning of the specific phrase "Computational Theory of Mind" in psychology, which apparently has a strict definition. I guess my poor grasp of terminology in the field as an outsider makes me sophomoric. I instead took a meaning out of the term that most people here would - a concept a lot more relevant to the Westworld thread, which is the idea that a computer can replicate brain function by simulating it. Whatever you call that idea in the field, you personally agree with it. And it's the more important point to the discussion, which is about whether full AI is possible or not... it is, because minds are possible to simulate and a simulation of a mind is indistinguishable from a mind. I doubt anyone here is saying the show hinges on the details of how it'll eventually be done - whether it's something (unlikely) like a conventional CPU simulating ~50 brain suborgans each acting as though they're all single-threaded computers if that's what CTM really means (although surely that's not what Pinker really believes, given his writings about parallel fuzzy logic circuits), or if it (more likely) requires a simulation of a much more parallel brain to approximate the human mind. As you pointed out, approximating the human mind isn't even necessary if making an AI is the goal. Maybe non-bio-mimetic intelligences are possible that really don't have more than a few dozen threads, who knows. We'll find out. I'm going to check out that book although I have doubts about that use of the phrase "non-computational" versus how it's really used in computer science.
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Mar 8, 2018 06:52
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The mind is like a big truck.
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Mar 8, 2018 06:53
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Cojawfee posted:The mind is like a big gently caress. Next season on Westwood:
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Mar 8, 2018 09:44
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crazy cloud posted:Holy poo poo god drat when does the murder fuckbot show come back on the teevee seriously
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Mar 8, 2018 11:39
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You guys wanna talk about the guns some more?
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Mar 8, 2018 14:48
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Hunterhr posted:You guys wanna talk about the guns some more? No...but the bullets????
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Mar 8, 2018 14:49
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Hey but how would shogun world work if everyone wants to use hanzo steel katanas? Smart swords?
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Mar 8, 2018 14:51
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Billzasilver posted:Hey but how would shogun world work if everyone wants to use hanzo steel katanas? Smart swords? If your hosts are fast enough, it would make sense they could just kind of swing to the side at the last second. Best explanation I have is from one of the montages where Maeve was walking down the street. That dude everyone bumps into and gets into a gunfight with paused when the host saw the guest wasn't drawing as fast as he was to let the guest win. Assuming your hosts have fast enough reaction time, they could always miss, or hit the samurai armor the guests are wearing, or something similar. Or maybe there's just a better disclaimer "You might get cut here in ShogunWorld, we told you now you can't sue us."
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Mar 8, 2018 19:17
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The guests are actually all synths too, these parks are for robots by robots
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Mar 8, 2018 19:28
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Azhais posted:The guests are actually all synths too, these parks are for robots by robots So freed robots? The parks are just training ground for newer models to achieve sentience?
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Mar 8, 2018 20:13
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How do you deal with a real person slashing another real person? The guns won't actually injure a real person, but how does a sword do that.
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Mar 8, 2018 20:17
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If you have sci fi guns that can kill hosts and not a person, I don't see why you can't have swords do the same thing.
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Mar 8, 2018 20:23
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How though? The guns use whatever tech to detect a real person and either fire a blank or some sort of low powered shot. What would the swords do? Detect a human and then turn soft or soften the edge so it can't break skin?
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Mar 8, 2018 20:41
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Anyone interested in reading more about the nature of consciousness and how it is (probably) illusory (in so far as that has any inherentt meaning) would do well to read Douglas Hofstadter, particularly Godel, Escher, Bach and I Am a Strange Loop. I am absolutely certain that Johnathan Nolan has read them and used them as influences for Westworld. There are several subtle nods to Hofstadter's ideas in the series.
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Mar 8, 2018 20:55
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Cojawfee posted:How do you deal with a real person slashing another real person? The guns won't actually injure a real person, but how does a sword do that. It was shown that the Hosts can pretty easily stop a human with a blade when Teddy grabbed MiB's knife. SW would probably be some highly-vetted endgame poo poo: you can only go after you complete 70% of the quests in Pariah or something. Fewer guests and a more adult focus would make it easier to tailor and control (and charge a premium!). Give most of the Hosts blunted weapons and program them to not let the guests hurt each other in single combat.
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Mar 8, 2018 22:23
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Dumb Lowtax posted:I guess my poor grasp of terminology in the field as an outsider makes me sophomoric. ...thats why we call 2nd year students sophmores, yes.
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Mar 8, 2018 23:19
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My friend went to the SXSW Westworld interactive thing (full town with actors playing hosts) last night and posted this:quote:How they stay in character is beyond me
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Mar 9, 2018 18:45
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Cojawfee posted:How do you deal with a real person slashing another real person? The guns won't actually injure a real person, but how does a sword do that. It’s just a big naked sushi room. The robots have refrigerators installed in them so the sushi served on them never goes bad.
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Mar 9, 2018 20:30
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D-Pad posted:My friend went to the SXSW Westworld interactive thing (full town with actors playing hosts) last night and posted this: I got a ticket for tomorrow evening. Will report back. Anybody have any suggestions of things I should be looking out for? I know there are secret rooms and the like.
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Mar 10, 2018 17:03
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Just try to have sex with everything.
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Mar 10, 2018 17:27
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Ask them all if they know this Dolores woman
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Mar 10, 2018 17:35
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Just walk around demanding that everyone cease all motor functions like a normal goon
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Mar 10, 2018 17:35
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Yell “Andy’s coming!”
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Mar 10, 2018 17:38
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be the guy that just repeatedly stares blankly at things going "it doesn't look like anything to me" , "it doesn't look like anything to me" ,"it doesn't look like anything to me" just over and over at everything and everyone
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Mar 10, 2018 17:42
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jojoinnit posted:Just walk around demanding that everyone cease all motor functions like a normal goon yea try to troll and exploit maybe you'll find something
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Mar 10, 2018 17:49
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Scalp somebody to see if the map to The Maze is under their hair.
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Mar 10, 2018 18:04
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Keep loudly insisting that you were promised "violent delights" and demand to speak to the manager
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Mar 10, 2018 18:12
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Keep asking whether you’re going to get a chance to fight the white walkers.
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Mar 10, 2018 18:16
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crazy cloud posted:be the guy that just repeatedly stares blankly at things going "it doesn't look like anything to me" , "it doesn't look like anything to me" ,"it doesn't look like anything to me" just over and over at everything and everyone lol
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Mar 10, 2018 18:18
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It sounds like the cringiest cringefest full of nerds shouting catchphrases from the show while actors just try to get through the day to get their paycheck.
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Mar 10, 2018 21:08
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Cojawfee posted:It sounds like the cringiest cringefest full of nerds shouting catchphrases from the show while actors just try to get through the day to get their paycheck. It gets worse when you figure there are people who actually think The Dave posted:Just try to have sex with everything. is their goal.
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Mar 10, 2018 21:12
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I didn't want to go into it, but I hope no one gets sexually assaulted there because "hurr duur I'm in the west worlds cease all motor functions so I can gently caress you"
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Mar 10, 2018 21:16
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The prison of our own sins has broken through the fourth wall
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Mar 10, 2018 21:19
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I sort of don't get what it could be, to be honest. Like, one of my wife's friends is going to some creative anachronism thing and it seems super-involved and has a ton of rules, so something this casual seems like the best it could probably be is a casual meet and greet with the actors as they play someone in character.
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Mar 10, 2018 21:29
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:It was shown that the Hosts can pretty easily stop a human with a blade when Teddy grabbed MiB's knife. SW would probably be some highly-vetted endgame poo poo: you can only go after you complete 70% of the quests in Pariah or something. Fewer guests and a more adult focus would make it easier to tailor and control (and charge a premium!). Give most of the Hosts blunted weapons and program them to not let the guests hurt each other in single combat. Vistors to SW are not shameful enough to play on easy mode.
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Mar 10, 2018 22:10
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Bicyclops posted:I sort of don't get what it could be, to be honest. Like, one of my wife's friends is going to some creative anachronism thing and it seems super-involved and has a ton of rules, so something this casual seems like the best it could probably be is a casual meet and greet with the actors as they play someone in character. They have hired a ton of local actors and apparently have a 400+ page script. The story "resets" every 2 hours. Over 12 fully built buildings. You have a letter addressed to you at the post office that can be a number of things and is a clue that starts you on a story line you can follow by asking the right questions of the right people. There are also scripted events like gunfights in the street. Apparently there are even some secret rooms. One guy found a hidden button that opened a secret door that had techs behind it working on that weird white robot model from the season 2 trailer. So basically it's like a real life rpg village with a certain number of side quests and each npc has dialogue tree. You don't have to go back on the bus when the story resets so you can continue to explore if you don't feel like you have found everything. You can also get free food and drinks at the saloon. So yeah, there will probably be a lot of dumbasses (see my loving the corpse comment above) but it should still be pretty cool. Plus you get to keep your cowboy hat with the Westworld logo on the inside and my friend who went said it's actually a high quality hat not a gimmick. Probably sell it on eBay for a good amount if I wanted.
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Mar 10, 2018 22:59
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| # ? Apr 28, 2024 23:24 |
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D-Pad posted:They have hired a ton of local actors and apparently have a 400+ page script. The story "resets" every 2 hours. Over 12 fully built buildings. You have a letter addressed to you at the post office that can be a number of things and is a clue that starts you on a story line you can follow by asking the right questions of the right people. There are also scripted events like gunfights in the street. Apparently there are even some secret rooms. One guy found a hidden button that opened a secret door that had techs behind it working on that weird white robot model from the season 2 trailer. So basically it's like a real life rpg village with a certain number of side quests and each npc has dialogue tree. Ah okay, I guess that sounds pretty okay. It sounds sort of like Escape the Room combined with like... Sturbridge Villge or something? Vaguely video game-ish. It might be enjoyable as like a thing people can do on corporate retreats, maybe replace the the SAG rejects with some hyper-realistic robots, maybe make the whole thing into a theme park. If we could find a couple of AI experts and throw funding at them, I see this thing being a huge success.
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Mar 10, 2018 23:31
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