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There were actually more ways to exploit restarting. For example, there are some screens where the game ist noch enough to respawn you Beat the first danger, rather than letting you waste a few seconds running back from the start of the screen. The logical cause of action would have been to abuse that goodwill. But I am not Interested im speedrunning, so my opinion ist somewhat biased.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:26
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cant cook creole bream posted:I mean, it's all just a matter of persistence. If you manage to get through a screen one in 4 times and there are 16 screens you only need to stick to it for about 2^32 times. If you can so each screen individually, you can technically do everything flawlessly. It's not really likely to manage it in a human lifetime if those are the odds, though. Yeah but 2^32 tries at 1 second per try is still over a year of playtime, so the chance of success in (say) a few weeks of playing at even 10 hours per day is pretty drat low. The more likely explanation is that the people doing this are actually very good, and their chances of making it through any given screen are much higher than 1 in 4. That said, I think even a 1 in 4 chance at making through a B-side screen qualifies as "pretty drat good" at this game. The B-sides are hard.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:46
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cant cook creole bream posted:There were actually more ways to exploit restarting. For example, there are some screens where the game ist noch enough to respawn you Beat the first danger, rather than letting you waste a few seconds running back from the start of the screen. The logical cause of action would have been to abuse that goodwill. Some of those are still in use because they're faster. The problem isn't that dying is faster. It's that prior to the patch dying was faster only by a quirk of the in game clock but in reality was incredibly slow. Dying to go fast is fine, dying to go slow but technically faster is dumb as heck. Restarts work as intended, it was the timer behavior that needed alteration.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:53
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Finally finished the story last week and holy poo poo no game does dopamine dumps into your brain like this one. Between the last few levels and the b-sides I've had dozens of "holy poo poo gently caress yeah I'm so good at video games!!!!" moments. I'm on the Chapter 6 b-side right now though and yikes. I'm not sure I can handle C-sides.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:57
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Fedule posted:I don't know if it is gameable for advantage (eg pausing repeatedly to advance a demanding jump slowly). I believe it is not. It is, which kind of renders the whole argument moot because the entire point of the thing explicitly labelled the "Speedrun Timer" is to facilitate speedruns. If its gameable, then the feature isn't serving its intended function. Pause buffering sucks. Fedule posted:Finally, all of the above apply only to in-game-timed runs of individual levels. If you want to do a 0 to credits speedrun, you've got two choices; time it externally in strict 100% realtime, or submit a time that's just the sum of your in-game times for the first seven chapters. We actually just used the File Timer for this, which has always behaved like the new level timer does where it doesn't stop for any reason. The discrepancy between the two kinds of timers is important because it largely led to Individual Level runs being totally ignored because the IL timer didn't bear a passing resemblance to how the game is actually played. Fedule posted:Crucially, the game no longer pauses during respawning, to address the exploit. Fine. Unfortunately, this materially affects the validity of any saved time that is not a zero-death run, so those are wiped. Sad, but still fine. Here's the problem; every death is now a quicktime event. Hit any button in between dying and when the pretty lights fade, and you will save up to like half a second from your respawn time. This is bad. I don't really know how to respond this without sounding like a dick but yes, if you do the thing that saves half a second, you should save half a second than someone who didn't do that thing. I don't get it. That's not even good or bad, that's just how time itself works. Fedule posted:Cutscenes are now also a quicktime event. This is bad. I used to joke about my ability to do frame perfect cutscene skips on that one room in Mirror Temple where Badeline stops to talk at you like four times. It was funny. We laughed. I didn't always do it and it didn't matter. Now the game demands that of me, and everyone, always. That just sucks. I'm kind of confused by your characterisation of any in-game action that isn't platforming as a "quick-time event", it's a series of inputs that has to be executed with the right timing to produce the desired result, it's no different from timing your dashes well in that regard. It's also kind of nothing either way because it's not even an especially complex action. It's also funny you use that example specifically because skipping that cutscene frame-perfectly will result in your keeping your momentum after the cutscene and will likely just cause you to fly into a pit and die. Skipping that one frame-perfectly is actually bad, if you're doing it right, you're actually slightly late. Also, Celeste's cutscenes have a funny quirk about them which makes this no good either, which is that your position and status will carry into a cutscene and after you've skipped it, so cutscenes are still effectively gameplay in this regard because they can effect the state of the game after it. They have to count, or they will be abused by people trying to eke out every single frame. That's not good, you don't want that. Fedule posted:Having to stop for any reason is now a severe time penalty. This is bad. Stopping during a speedrun should be a time penalty. You're doing a speedrun. I can't cop to this argument at all. hell you can take breaks on the menu and that's sorta dumb on its own but eh whatever every speedrun has its jank Fedule posted:If you are doing live realtime runs or races, all of these things are already the case, and on top of that the respawn trick was of no use to you anyway. You already didn't care about any of the concessions the game made to other players. Now, the game forces realtime rules on everyone, all the time... but still doesn't actually equate fully with the live context because it still doesn't time you in menus or loading screens. So live and in-game are still firmly two seperate categories, and the latter is still by necessity faster than the former on an identically played run. "Live realtime runs" are not really a thing for Celeste. Not every speedrun works using real time. Speedruns are a very broad thing and there is no hard ruling for how they're timed and you seem to be coming from a position of assuming that all speedruns are always conducted using real time. They're not. There is no "separate category" for real time. It doesn't exist, that's not a thing anyone actually does. We clock our poo poo with the in-game timer, we very much care about how it works because load times suck for fair competition and we don't want them. These were not ever "concessions" made to other players, they were issues that needed to be ironed out, flaws in the original implementation. The purpose of the timer was to facilitate speedruns, that is why it's an optional feature buried in the menu under Speedrun Timer. At the point where the timer can be abused and messed with to produce goofy results, the timer is broken and is failing at its purpose and requires fixing. Fedule posted:They could have just disabled retrying during screen transitions. You can't. You can't even pause during screen transitions. The exploit in question was Retrying as soon as you gained control for minimal IGT gain to massive RTA loss. Making it so you could only Retry once a certain amount of time has passed or some other such band-aid would actually suck worse and have much dumber reaching implications for the runs because the cycles for any given room actually change on a respawn, meaning sometimes this so called "death cycle" is actually an ideal position and leads to a faster strategy, so Retrying quickly is actually good. Fundamentally, doing a good In Game Timer is extremely simple conceptually, in that it should basically just resemble Real Time Minus Loads about as closely as it physically can. Hat in Time did this and it worked totally awesome and became a standard for that game's speedrun community. Sonic Mania, for example, didn't do this and that IGT is basically totally useless to that community and might as well not exist, making it totally unfit for purpose. Celeste had a File Timer that always worked like this and people liked it, but the Individual Level Timer had quirks and as a result there wasn't a whole lot of interest among the speedrunners in actually doing Individual Level runs, clearly this is a problem when the purpose of the feature is to facilitate speedruns. Then, the change happened and now players are starting to take ILs a little more seriously and are pushing the boundaries of what can be done with them, this is a way better outcome than leaving it busted.
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Mar 20, 2018 01:04
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i mean really they should have just implemented a "speedrun settings" menu and then everyone can have their cake and eat it
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Mar 20, 2018 04:15
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alf_pogs posted:i mean really they should have just implemented a "speedrun settings" menu and then everyone can have their cake and eat it I don't know about that, if you're intending people to compete against each other, which Celeste clearly is due to its very blatant effort to court that crowd, you really ought to have the timer working the same way for everyone who plays it. I know Celeste's philosophy is generally one of minding its own business when it comes to how people wish to play, but speedrunniing can't really function without a shared understanding of how the thing is timed.
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Mar 20, 2018 08:14
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So essentially, your argument is that people who want to semi-casually do IL speedruns should just forget about it and either be a 'real' speedrunner or go gently caress off. IL timers in most games are more lenient than real time for a reason. That reason is to allow people to try to beat their times without having to have bladders of steel and be incredibly rude to their housemates.
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Mar 20, 2018 10:08
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Keiya posted:So essentially, your argument is that people who want to semi-casually do IL speedruns should just forget about it and either be a 'real' speedrunner or go gently caress off. No? Man, gently caress off with this. My point was that the timer is now accurate to how you'd actually play the game as a speedrun rather than it being full of weird caveats and pitfalls that make it not particularly good at its stated purpose. If you want to semi-casually do ILs, you still can. This doesn't stop you doing that at all, just more things actually count now. I don't see how this stops anyone from still doing it semi-casually. Does "semi-casual" involve wanting random things to not count against your time just because you don't like them? That's not "semi-casual" that's just wanting to ignore how time works? If you're doing it "semi-casually" what do you even care that much about ten seconds here and there from pausing to scratch your nose or something? If you care a whole lot about how cutscene-skipping a frame or two later now counts against you, if you're paying attention to your time that loving closely, that's not even remotely "semi-casual", that's full-blown speedrunning. It also strikes me as excessive because I have pretty good times in this game and I barely even think about cutscene skipping, of all the things in the game that one could theoretically lose time to, that is not really one of them. Keiya posted:That reason is to allow people to try to beat their times without having to have bladders of steel and be incredibly rude to their housemates. The levels are like ten minutes long on average. I'm pretty sure being able to go ten minutes without needing a whizz doesn't constitute a bladder of steel. And the timers aren't "lenient" so much as just bad at tracking time properly. SuccinctAndPunchy fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Mar 20, 2018 |
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Mar 20, 2018 14:40
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I'm with succinctandpunchy on this, speedrunning now is hyper competitive and competitive things need a competent, standardized set of rules, period. If you aren't up to task or not interested in competing against these times then just take the time loss on pausing /put your console in rest mode / quit to the main menu if you need a break. The argument against the changes on deaths puzzle me. To me, the solution is just practice more and don't die?? That said I went through the game after 100%ing it cause it's fun and I just breezed through 1a-8a in about 2 hours avoiding strawberries and getting all the blue hearts and I think I had like 400 deaths total, it ruled 
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Mar 20, 2018 14:54
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beep by grandpa posted:The argument against the changes on deaths puzzle me. To me, the solution is just practice more and don't die?? It's worth bearing in mind as well deaths not counting was the entire catalyst for the change in general, because it was hugely hugely abusable and resulted in IL speedruns being a hilarious joke where you died on every screen for TIMER OPTIMIZATION. Which is lame and not a single person would like that, "semi-casual" or otherwise. If you "semi-casual" for long enough, you'll hit a point where you'll realize doing that is the best way to optimize further and then you'll probably go "well that's fuckin lame", and quit. Unfortunately what's being characterized as "leniency" in the timer basically just translates to "extremely abusable" when being used by people who are actively trying to get the best result. It's also not even really intentional leniency so much as just a flaw in how the original timer worked, I don't buy for a second it was considered accessibility choice so much as just "we'll just time whenever you're in direct control of the character and that'll be fine". And then oops, it's not actually fine.
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Mar 20, 2018 15:06
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Celeste is the only game in years I can think of where I immediately went back to start a new game & keep playing for fun after achieving the platinum trophy besides Sonic Mania and Bloodborne
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Mar 20, 2018 15:22
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there's a whole thread to argue about speedrunning bullshit in
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Mar 20, 2018 15:41
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precision posted:there's a whole thread to argue about speedrunning bullshit in sadly said thread is garbage
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Mar 20, 2018 15:53
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precision posted:there's a whole thread to argue about speedrunning bullshit in SuccinctAndPunchy posted:sadly said thread is garbage There's a lesson here.
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Mar 20, 2018 17:16
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:Does "semi-casual" involve wanting random things to not count against your time just because you don't like them? That's not "semi-casual" that's just wanting to ignore how time works? I don't see how the PAUSE function PAUSEing things is ignoring how time works. And cutscenes are supposed to be chance to take a breather and grab a drink. The change to the death and screen transition rules are fine, but those two are dumb. Edit: In essence, I want it to count how long I played the level, not how long it was from going into the level to going out of it. =
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Mar 20, 2018 20:38
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Keiya posted:I don't see how the PAUSE function PAUSEing things is ignoring how time works. And cutscenes are supposed to be chance to take a breather and grab a drink. The change to the death and screen transition rules are fine, but those two are dumb. It sounds like you are more in favor of just streaming a play through and not busting your rear end at repeating the same route for hours until you get it to be flawless, and continue that through the entire game until you can do it all together in a single run to race for a world record. Understandable, I doubt I could ever do a speedrun of this game, either!
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Mar 20, 2018 21:23
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Homies, it kinda feels like you're arguing for different things. The doesn't-stop-on-pause timer is RTA, the does-stop-on-pause timer was a hybrid between single-segment/multi-segment (not really multi-segment because that implies you saved in the middle and can do each segment over). Yeah, RTA is all the rage these days, but that doesn't make non-RTA "not a speedrun".
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Mar 20, 2018 21:30
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Yeah part of the glory of the in-game timer is that the game dev gets to decide what you are actually tested on, ie, what the game is asking of you. It's perfectly thematic and appropriate for cutscenes to not count towards that and it's a drat shame that changed. I think it's pretty fun to try and go fast but that change makes it strictly less fun regardless of what the speedrun community(lmao) thinks.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:36
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onesixtwo posted:It sounds like you are more in favor of just streaming a play through and not busting your rear end at repeating the same route for hours until you get it to be flawless, and continue that through the entire game until you can do it all together in a single run to race for a world record. Understandable, I doubt I could ever do a speedrun of this game, either! Not quite... for an example, let's take Sonic Adventure. It saves your fastest in-game time through each action stage. Picking one of those and doing it as fast as I can after a dozen tries where I work out tricks and timing is fun, and so is beating my best time. But I'm not really interested in competing against record holders, just myself. Individual levels with an in-game timer are perfect for that, and IMO should be tuned for that use. Hardcore runners are probably going to want to compete on a whole-game basis anyway.
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Mar 20, 2018 22:58
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Speedruns should not be judged by loving cutscene skips, it sucks and is bad.
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Mar 20, 2018 23:45
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Keiya posted:Hardcore runners are probably going to want to compete on a whole-game basis anyway. You say that, but ILs are a thing and even have their own leaderboards. Lots of level-based games have them because they're useful for optimizing runs (they even have links to the video of the runs), although for whole-game runs you'll probably take less risky strats than the ones used by the IL record. But anyway, ultimately, it's the community that decides what it considers official. Which, naturally leads to fun things like Sonic 2 speedruns not counting the end-of-level countdown because it screws over people who actually go fast through levels.
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Mar 21, 2018 00:36
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There should be an option to turn cutscenes off and just have a hard cut to the next segment when you reach one.
jetpackhewy fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Mar 21, 2018 |
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Mar 21, 2018 00:37
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Or better yet, just push a different button to skip without going into the menu.
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Mar 21, 2018 02:39
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Hello. I don't play very many precision platformers. Is this game keyboard friendly or is that suicide?
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Mar 21, 2018 07:14
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Bad Seafood posted:Hello. I think the answer to that depends on how well you can hit diagonals + dash. If you have no problems hitting those 3 keys at once in various ways repeatedly, I'd say you can do it.
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Mar 21, 2018 07:25
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Bad Seafood posted:Hello. If you have little to no experience with platforming on keyboard in general, it can be quite an obstacle to adjust to. That is about it. Nothing else about a keyboard is inherently better or worse for platforming than a controller. jetpackhewy fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Mar 21, 2018 |
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Mar 21, 2018 08:05
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jetpackhewy posted:If you have little to no experience with platforming on keyboard in general, it can be quite an obstacle to adjust to. That is about it. Nothing else about a keyboard is inherently better or worse for platforming than a controller. i'd argue that it's just plain slower to activate keypresses than hitting buttons, like from the moment your finger starts acting, but yeah this game is dpad city so it should work in theory if you're used to it just can't imagine speedrunners using one offhand 
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Mar 21, 2018 08:18
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Just wanted to say I booted up the game and turned on cheating baby mode full power and while it is hilariously stupid there's something funny about playing as a rocket powered unkillable jet engine. The screenshake just goes out of control and it's like you're doing a raging demon on the stage itself.
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Mar 21, 2018 08:33
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I 100%ed the game using just a keyboard You probably need a keyboard that doesn't have issues pressing multiple keys simultaneously (ghosting issues)
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Mar 21, 2018 08:33
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comedyblissoption posted:I 100%ed the game using just a keyboard it sort of amazes me that this is still a problem in TYOOL 2018
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Mar 21, 2018 08:38
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I think it's cheaper to make lovely rear end keyboards with ghosting issues than good keyboards blame capitalism
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Mar 21, 2018 08:46
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i started out playing with the d-pad on PS4 but surprisingly i got gud a lot quicker using the analog stick and used it exclusively starting in chapter 4
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Mar 21, 2018 09:21
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The amount of vibration this game has killed so many ps4 controllers faster than any game I've ever played...you know, I think if I could change one thing about the entire game I'd remove the very small intentional delay/screen freeze when you touch one of those dash reset crystals. That hosed me up so many times I was gonna lose my mind in some of the later b and c sides cause it always threw off my timing on the really tight multi-jumps. Did This give anyone else problems?
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Mar 21, 2018 13:51
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It's just hitstop. As a fightgames player I was ready for it and did not have that problem. If you don't play as many fightgames maybe it's more disorienting?
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Mar 21, 2018 14:00
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Bad Seafood posted:Hello. Ciaphas posted:just can't imagine speedrunners using one offhand comedyblissoption posted:I 100%ed the game using just a keyboard
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Mar 21, 2018 14:46
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Bad Seafood posted:Hello. comedyblissoption posted:I think it's cheaper to make lovely rear end keyboards with ghosting issues than good keyboards
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Mar 21, 2018 15:24
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IIRC Dustforce speedrunning is evenly split between KB/M and controller users, I wouldn't be surprised if Celeste ends up the same way (if PC is the preferred platform)
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Mar 21, 2018 15:54
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Just got my golden strawberry in 3A. Took close to 50 tries. Then tried to get the golden strawberry in 4A right afterwards. First try. gently caress world 3, is what I'm saying
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Mar 21, 2018 16:05
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This game really shows what an abomination the D pad on the Switch Pro Controller is.
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Mar 22, 2018 01:55
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