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Karia posted:You could say that about other engineering disciplines: ethics isn't really part of calculating beam bending or chemical yield. But we've recognized that there are so many potential externalities that it's immoral to start a design project without a full understanding of its potential consequences. Ethics isn't linked to engineering because the math is fundamentally tied to societal repurcussions: it's because we've tried keeping them separate and it ended badly. This works better. https://i.imgur.com/g8htRAM.mp4
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Mar 25, 2018 18:56
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Karia posted:ethics isn't really part of calculating beam bending or chemical yield. Beam bending is how ships hull stresses are modeled. Ethics very much does play into how much bending moments and sheer force limits are allowed to be exceeded. Over time the ethics are scrubbed out to cut corners to make more money.
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Mar 25, 2018 19:05
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withak posted:Edit: Whats the over/under on time until self-driving cars have killed more Americans than nuclear power? US commercial nuclear power has killed 0, so that point's already been reached.
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Mar 25, 2018 19:22
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Is this the same water slide that decapitated a 10 year old?
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Mar 25, 2018 19:42
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ryonguy posted:Called it?  Arsenic Lupin posted:Here's the thing. Any software you can build tools or software on top of has direct life safety consequences nowadays. Effing Excel is safety-critical by any reasonable standard because of the enormous number of spreadsheets being used to control (for instance) health decisions. Every compiler in the world. Every OS. Every framework. The entire drat stack is safety-critical, and nearly none of it is written or tested to those standards.  but at this point everyone has just sort of settled into putting up with lovely consumer software that kinda sorta does the job most of the time and accepting that it's just going to fail in unexpected ways, with all the costs, occasional deaths, etc. that implies. Rolling your own software and actually making it reliable to "normal" engineering standards is likely going to be extremely expensive and time consuming even in the best case scenario with no guarantee that it won't end up three times more expensive than planned after fifteen extra years of development hell in reality. I'd be surprised if anything short of space probe firmware and a small portion of military and medical stuff exists today that would meet the standard, and I'd be even more surprised if any of those things aren't command line-only stuff for neckbeards running on super well tested (i.e. outdated) hardware with a fraction of the computing power of an apple watch.
suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Mar 25, 2018 |
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Mar 25, 2018 20:52
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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lmao of course Rhesus Pieces posted:Is this the same water slide that decapitated a 10 year old? yup
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Mar 25, 2018 20:56
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undergraduate level physics is hard man
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Mar 25, 2018 20:57
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suck my woke dick posted:undergraduate level physics is hard man things don't always fall as fact as newton said they would
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Mar 25, 2018 21:05
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Effing Excel is safety-critical by any reasonable standard because of the enormous number of spreadsheets being used to control (for instance) health decisions. On that note: https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-016-1044-7
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Mar 25, 2018 21:18
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withak posted:Require a PE to be responsible for design of hardware or software that has direct life safety consequences like this does. Not every discipline has a PE, nor should it necessarily be a requirement. A PE license makes sense when one engineer is in charge of okaying something like a building, that is a one-off design where each structure is uniquely implemented and has to negotiate with differences in location and contractor quality. Software, hardware, and other things (I'm in medical devices, for instance, and we don't have an established PE system) that are designed, manufactured, and sold, go through a completely different process. The design is checked, tested, and submitted to regulatory bodies, and the manufacture is checked, tested, and submitted to regulatory bodies. Because they are manufactured and maintained at designated sites that are approved and inspected on a regular basis, there is no singular PE required to sign off on them (instead that's usually performed by teams of engineers and regulatory professionals).
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Mar 25, 2018 21:49
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So honest question: How is Facebook different from Google when it comes to user data and privacy? Just less scandal?
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Mar 25, 2018 22:10
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Mercury Ballistic posted:So honest question: How is Facebook different from Google when it comes to user data and privacy? Just less scandal? Pretty much. Google is however a lot more aware than Zuckerberg about the ramifications of loving up too much with these things.
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Mar 25, 2018 22:24
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These tube slides were always the biggest bitch to make in Rollercoaster Tycoon.
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Mar 25, 2018 22:34
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Karia posted:The reason that regulation works is because the PE, whether they work for the company or the local planning board or whoever, can just refuse to sign off. They've got the responsibility and they've got the power. No argument from me that expecting engineers to be the guardians of morality is not an optimal solution for many, many reasons, and that it's way too weak anyway. But right now it's the best we've got, given that even suggesting that companies should be mandated to consider societal impact makes you a social pariah in this lovely country and that our whistle-blower protections are constantly being degraded. Corporations are never going to give workers this kind of power over the bottom line period, much less because of gray area ethical concerns. No, it's not the workers responsibility to ensure the corporation is doing everything ethically and they will toss your rear end out and put someone in the chair who will if you start complaining in 98% of cases. I have no idea why you think expecting workers to take responsibility for corporate ethics would be any more realistic or popular than just regulating them.
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Mar 25, 2018 22:48
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TheNakedFantastic posted:Corporations are never going to give workers this kind of power over the bottom line period, much less because of gray area ethical concerns. No, it's not the workers responsibility to ensure the corporation is doing everything ethically and they will toss your rear end out and put someone in the chair who will if you start complaining in 98% of cases. Isn't requiring a PE to sign off on things a form of regulation? It's not like companies do this out of the kindness of their hearts.
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Mar 25, 2018 23:04
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TheNakedFantastic posted:Corporations are never going to give workers this kind of power over the bottom line period, much less because of gray area ethical concerns. No, it's not the workers responsibility to ensure the corporation is doing everything ethically and they will toss your rear end out and put someone in the chair who will if you start complaining in 98% of cases. This is an interesting line of conversation. I work in R&D, and my primary "job" as it pertains to the company bottom line, is to test our products and test them in such a way that they pass. That being said, between 3 and 5 engineers sign off at each point of testing (IQ/OQ/PQ/TMV/SWV just to establish the test (in addition to the actual test method itself) and a Protocol/Report for each actual test). We make sure that the product meets standards and will not fail, and we don't hesitate to bring problems back to the designers and tell them that there is an issue and that we are concerned about it. When it comes down to it, our job is to pass the product, but passing the product means weeding out failures in both the product and test methods (some test methods have unforseen problems) until we come up with something that works and is safe. Now, to be fair, I don't work in software; I work in hardware. I also work on devices that will kill people if they fail. We are also extremely heavily regulated (primarily by the FDA) and frequently audited, which means that corner-cutting ethics will put us out of business, so we are expected to raise our concerns and work to make a safe product. So yeah, regulate the poo poo out of the company and penalize them such that unsafe products cost more than they bring as a return, and, like magic, ethics will become the rule rather than the exception.
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Mar 25, 2018 23:04
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fishmech posted:US commercial nuclear power has killed 0, so that point's already been reached. This is correct.
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Mar 25, 2018 23:07
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Ironically enough I can't read this article without logging in via FB, which I'm in the process of deleting. It was quite disturbing when I downloaded my data to see who was targeting me - for example a behavioral health group, presumably because I mentioned going to therapy in a few posts many years ago.
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Mar 25, 2018 23:36
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fishmech posted:US commercial nuclear power has killed 0, so that point's already been reached. Love the necessary "commercial" modifier here.
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Mar 25, 2018 23:41
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ryonguy posted:Love the necessary "commercial" modifier here. If we remove the commercial moniker, self-driving cars have quite a few to go, even if we restrict to 1945. Wow this thread can get macabre.
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Mar 25, 2018 23:55
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Isn't requiring a PE to sign off on things a form of regulation? It's not like companies do this out of the kindness of their hearts. yes
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Mar 25, 2018 23:58
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Ynglaur posted:If we remove the commercial moniker, self-driving cars have quite a few to go, even if we restrict to 1945. I think Uber's engineers are up to the challenge though.
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Mar 26, 2018 00:02
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Feinne posted:I think Uber's engineers are up to the challenge though. Touche. I'd blame their leadership though. Bad ethics in an organization almost always comes down to bad leadership.
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Mar 26, 2018 00:25
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Ynglaur posted:If we remove the commercial moniker, self-driving cars have quite a few to go, even if we restrict to 1945. I don't know, if we just say self driving and not restrict it to cars, drones have gotten pretty automated, we'll be able to catch up in no time once the war with Iran starts.
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Mar 26, 2018 01:27
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What that gif doesn't depict is the tube originally that covered the upwards slope of the slide. That kid got his chin caught on one of the internal bars while he was flying causing his head to yanked off his body. The ride owners had no qualification and the boy's father is a GOP pol whose lax policies was what let the ride exist in the first place. He also managed to get 80 times the apparent limit on compensation because of loving course he could.
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Mar 26, 2018 02:09
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ryonguy posted:Love the necessary "commercial" modifier here. Military nuclear power kills people when it is working as intended though, so it seems unfair to ding it for that.
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Mar 26, 2018 03:17
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Triangle Shirt Factotum posted:Military nuclear power kills people when it is working as intended though, so it seems unfair to ding it for that. No, that's nuclear warheads. Reactors aren't meant to kill the people operating and maintaining them, and yet they did.
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Mar 26, 2018 03:38
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Absurd Alhazred posted:No, that's nuclear warheads. Reactors aren't meant to kill the people operating and maintaining them, and yet they did. Yeah, but outside of a handful of incidents early on none of those fatalities have anything to do with nuclear power. This is every accident with fatalities after 1964:
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Mar 26, 2018 03:48
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Paradoxish posted:Yeah, but outside of a handful of incidents early on none of those fatalities have anything to do with nuclear power. That's doing a lot of your work for you here. Self-driving cars still haven't had a handful of fatalities, so they're ahead. 
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Mar 26, 2018 03:51
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It seems a bit strange that one of the WhatsApp co-founders (Acton) is telling everyone to delete FB when they made him a billionaire (or something close)
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Mar 26, 2018 04:01
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No honour amongst thieves
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Mar 26, 2018 04:03
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Same with Sean Parker and this Chamath dude, although the latter seems to actually want to do some good with his money
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Mar 26, 2018 04:12
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That's doing a lot of your work for you here. Self-driving cars still haven't had a handful of fatalities, so they're ahead. Yes but self driving cars have the entire history of automotive safety to draw from. Early nuclear tests were literally called “tickling the dragon”.
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Mar 26, 2018 04:25
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Absurd Alhazred posted:No, that's nuclear warheads. Reactors aren't meant to kill the people operating and maintaining them, and yet they did. Just about any incident on that list is pretty much some sort of industrial accident that doesn't really have anything to do with nuclear power. except for the guy who died in a nuclear waste processing facility but that didn't actually involve a reactor, just gross mishandling of nuclear waste by the plant staff
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Mar 26, 2018 05:23
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Trevor Hale posted:Yes but self driving cars have the entire history of automotive safety to draw from. Early nuclear tests were literally called “tickling the dragon”. Okay so I'm going to use this screw driver to keep the two halves apart in order to prevent criticality and... D.. Did I just taste the color purple? That can't be good.
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Mar 26, 2018 05:36
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Trevor Hale posted:Yes but self driving cars have the entire history of automotive safety to draw from. Early nuclear tests were literally called “tickling the dragon”. How do you find out the exact limits for a critical nuclear reaction in a variety of conditions? You do a bunch of experiments near the theoretical edge of critical reactions. At that point, any slight mistake in protocol or theory can cause the core to go critical.
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Mar 26, 2018 07:09
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And if you're a smart person in the Greatest Country In Our Planet's History(tm)(pbuh), you do it in the middle of a populated area with little thought about what the consequences could be, because if anyone outside the room gets affected it's their own stupid fault for not finding out about the top-secret testing beforehand and evacuating themselves, the dumb peasants.
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Mar 26, 2018 07:13
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Inspector Gesicht posted:What that gif doesn't depict is the tube originally that covered the upwards slope of the slide. That kid got his chin caught on one of the internal bars while he was flying causing his head to yanked off his body.  Poor kid. But on the other hand, poetic justice.
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Mar 26, 2018 07:57
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actionjackson posted:It seems a bit strange that one of the WhatsApp co-founders (Acton) is telling everyone to delete FB when they made him a billionaire (or something close) People are allowed to regret their decisions and change their mind on things. If anything I think it has more gravity that he's saying it.
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Mar 26, 2018 14:26
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pr0zac posted:People are allowed to regret their decisions and change their mind on things. If anything I think it has more gravity that he's saying it. As much gravity as any politician "changing" their views when an issue swings to greater than 50% support in the population.
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Mar 26, 2018 14:49
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