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Willie Tomg posted:Additionally, things that do big bursts of chunky damage (1h axes, fireball staff, etc) suddenly have a bigger role when things like 2handers and falchions are no longer the best infinitely cleaving CC in addition to insanely damaging.
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Mar 28, 2018 06:09
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Internet Explorer posted:I was playing IB with 3 pubbies yesterday. They were all well meaning, but would not under any circumstance stick together. We managed to pull a run or two out from the jaws of defeat "Good run. Was a lot of fun, but it's important to stick together." Typical IB scenario, which is why I like the class so much. Also, ratling gunner's saved my rear end a few times now, though never to that extent.
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Mar 28, 2018 06:17
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Kanos posted:You can't begin to tweak and balance how cruel the AI director is allowed to be if the fundamental mechanics of player power are outright broken or functioning in a way that does not align with their internal builds. Didn't they say themselves they balance based off an internal build that works properly?
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Mar 28, 2018 06:24
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SuperKlaus posted:https://www.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/87g16s/critical_hit_and_headshot_damage_explained/ lmfao jesus christ glad to know I can mostly ignore +Crit Power %, although atleast it does work, kind of, unlike many other things. I also still don't understand how there are different Heavy Attacks. Like on the spreadsheet, it often shows heavy_attack_left and heavy_attack_right. Now I've noticed some things do have two heaby attacks, but is it just like a consecutive heavy attacking to do it or how does that work? Like on Axe/Shield, it seems the first heavy attack is always a horizontal stab with the shield, then the next heavy attack is the axe swing, but sometimes it seems like it's the axe swing first? I kind of just figurted it was cosmetic-poo poo and all mostly doing the same. Is there some more nuances I'm really missing with attacks? The only thing I'm aware of is if you're blocking, you can push, then do like a 'counter-attack' right after it. Xaris fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 06:28
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I really like it when the AI director throws everything at you. It's fun and separates the good teams from the bad
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Mar 28, 2018 06:28
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Taffer posted:I really like it when the AI director throws everything at you. It's fun and separates the good teams from the bad Everything, or everything everything? Cause the game can literally spawn more than a team of four is capable of taking down.
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Mar 28, 2018 06:34
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both! i think the most fun times are when theres a horde + boss+ 5 specials. It's hard as hell and most teams die but its the most intense and exciting part of playing games like this. That was the situation that was most fun in games like L4D as well.
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Mar 28, 2018 06:37
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Fuuka Ayase posted:Didn't they say themselves they balance based off an internal build that works properly? Right - what he's saying is that our feedback and experiences are largely valueless because of how severely broken the game is right now. Fixing it may very well leave it in an undesirable state from which it would need further tuning (these guys released Halescourge, after all), but you want to build those changes on a solid foundation. Taffer posted:both! i think the most fun times are when theres a horde + boss+ 5 specials. It's hard as hell and most teams die but its the most intense and exciting part of playing games like this. That was the situation that was most fun in games like L4D as well. This is one of the things they really hosed with by adding the progression system. Games like this are the most fun when they challenge you just up to the breaking point without simply dumping a 'rocks fall' scenario onto your heads. Because the power level of the party relative to the map can vary wildly, the game can't consistently provide this kind of experience. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 06:38
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Fuuka Ayase posted:Didn't they say themselves they balance based off an internal build that works properly? Exactly. They balance based off an internal build, which doesn't match what players are experiencing right now in the slightest, which means that in order for any of their internal balance changes to make sense and actually have their intended effects they need to bring the live version in line with the internal build that works properly, which means applying the "nerf" to everyone. As a hypothetical example, say in their internal build, the halberd only hits two or three targets with its sweeps, an intentional tradeoff for how fast and powerful it is. In live, the halberd hits as many targets as it loving wants, making it Kruber's best weapon almost without exception. Any tweaks they make to the halberd based around their internal build won't have the intended effect if the live halberd behaves massively differently. All of their current design and balancing is based around that internal build, so if they decided to accept the way it works in live as the new status quo they would need to rebalance the entire game. Kanos fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 06:41
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i'm in the "fix the loving director" camp because probably two thirds of the difficulty of any given mission currently just comes down to RNG and it's loving stupid that you can add +/- 2 to whatever difficulty you're playing on based on that like in spite of half of this game currently being broken I still manage to really enjoy it most of the time, but it is only going to take a streak of games with garbage spawns to make me put it on hold because they ruin my enjoyment of it faster than anything when they happen
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Mar 28, 2018 06:59
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Taffer posted:I really like it when the AI director throws everything at you. It's fun and separates the good teams from the bad Don't forget to subscribe to my epic true solo legendary twitch and youtube channels! 24 hour practice stream tomorrow 0300 ET! Part 397 of game mechanics video series upcoming! chesnok fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 07:00
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Okay but will making HP work as intended fix.. Spawns. Sliding enemies. Instant/Skipped animation attacks And much much more? Right now I view the inflated HP as a compensation for how broken everything is.
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Mar 28, 2018 07:02
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Fuuka Ayase posted:Okay but will making HP work as intended fix.. No, but you can't actually properly adjust or fix the director until everyone is playing on the intended playing field. How do you adjust how aggressively the director is allowed to spawn things if you don't know how powerful the players are going to be because of version differences? How do you adjust how dense hordes are allowed to spawn if you don't know how well the players can cleave/crowd control? How do you balance classes if a third of the talents are completely broken and some class passives(poor zealot) literally do nothing? The entire Chaos faction sliding around on rollerblades and buggy rear end 180 turn smashes from bosses and elites are entirely detached from this hero power thing, though, and are a serious problem that demands a look.
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Mar 28, 2018 07:14
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Fuuka Ayase posted:Okay but will making HP work as intended fix.. You can't expect them to holistically fix the entire game overnight, and a broken character progression system is not a wedge to 'compensate' for the other broken mechanics. Making the whole game substantially easier before they make it harder sounds like a roadmap to disaster too. It sucks but I'd rather have them pull off the band-aid now. If we're still talking about skating enemies in three months, I'll be pissed but I'd really rather they fix HP now so that they can actually see where the flaws in the game are.
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Mar 28, 2018 07:17
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Because they still have a, supposedly working, internal build to balance and eyeball things on. There is no possible way you can convince me there wasn't a way to release the game in a cleaner state. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a working start point. Currently we aren't even at a start point. Or a working point. Or any sort of point.
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Mar 28, 2018 07:19
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Fuuka Ayase posted:Because they still have a, supposedly working, internal build to balance and eyeball things on. There is no possible way you can convince me there wasn't a way to release the game in a cleaner state. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a working start point. Currently we aren't even at a start point. Or a working point. Or any sort of point. It's uh... what? I mean, I get the game is basically unplayable on Legendary, and yeah, that's dumb, but on Champion the game is fun and I feel like I've hit a pretty comfortable 80% or so win streak on Champion, and I'd put most losses down to obvious tactical or skill problems. 'Aren't even at a start point' seems like an exaggeration unless your position is that the game is literally unplayable without uncapped HP, which we don't even loving know what that would be like. "Don't touch my ability to win games until you've fixed literally everything" seems kind of like sour grapes my dude. EDIT: Also it seems pretty obvious that their 'internal testing' is mostly a light dusting of actual testing. They didn't even catch that their entire progression system is broken, I sincerely doubt their ability to find any of the bugs this community has already found for them. I like them as devs but they are either massively understaffed or focusing on the wrong things. Mendrian fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 07:26
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Losing is fine. Losing because the game has a 'kill the player' button at the ready at all times is unacceptable. How can I expect to improve if I can't tell when the game is cheating me or I made a mistake? How can I feel good about winning when I can't tell if I made no mistakes versus the game merely softballing me this time around? Harder and harder to tell the difference every single time. What should or shouldn't be there blend in, and you can't be aware of everything the game is doing at all times. Did I LET those enemies flank me, or did the game teleport them directly behind me? Did I try blocking too late, or did this normal enemy glitch through my block? Did I dodge improperly, was it netcode, or is the hitbox on the attack I tried to dodge the size of the grand canyon? Can I rely on improving a maneuvering based playstyle if I pay enough attention and don't dodge early, or do certain attacks just home in? Could I have dodged the sliding attack anyway or was it always going to hit? On and on and on. I cannot hone a skill or playstyle based on muddy and inconsistent information. When I can't tell if it was me or the game that failed, I get pissed off. I want to fail on my own merit and improve on my own merit. I didn't come for a turn on the Gashapon.
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Mar 28, 2018 07:41
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Fuuka Ayase posted:Losing is fine. Losing because the game has a 'kill the player' button at the ready at all times is unacceptable. How can I expect to improve if I can't tell when the game is cheating me or I made a mistake? How can I feel good about winning when I can't tell if I made no mistakes versus the game merely softballing me this time around? Harder and harder to tell the difference every single time. What should or shouldn't be there blend in, and you can't be aware of everything the game is doing at all times. Did I LET those enemies flank me, or did the game teleport them directly behind me? Did I try blocking too late, or did this normal enemy glitch through my block? Did I dodge improperly, was it netcode, or is the hitbox on the attack I tried to dodge the size of the grand canyon? Can I rely on improving a maneuvering based playstyle if I pay enough attention and don't dodge early, or do certain attacks just home in? Could I have dodged the sliding attack anyway or was it always going to hit? On and on and on. It's PvE not competitive PvP. It's okay if the game dumps on you sometimes, it's not the end of the world if you lose some rounds to bad RNG, nothing is lost except a little time and it helps you and your team get better. If it was competitive PvP it would of course be a different story Taffer fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 07:51
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And yet enjoying a game by trying to get better at it is a perfectly valid method of enjoying said game. Why is a defeatist mindset the solely allowed method of enjoyment in PvE but not PvP? For the unaware, VT1 was a skill based game, and it was theoretically possible to play without taking any damage.
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Mar 28, 2018 07:57
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Fuuka Ayase posted:Losing is fine. Losing because the game has a 'kill the player' button at the ready at all times is unacceptable. How can I expect to improve if I can't tell when the game is cheating me or I made a mistake? How can I feel good about winning when I can't tell if I made no mistakes versus the game merely softballing me this time around? Harder and harder to tell the difference every single time. What should or shouldn't be there blend in, and you can't be aware of everything the game is doing at all times. Did I LET those enemies flank me, or did the game teleport them directly behind me? Did I try blocking too late, or did this normal enemy glitch through my block? Did I dodge improperly, was it netcode, or is the hitbox on the attack I tried to dodge the size of the grand canyon? Can I rely on improving a maneuvering based playstyle if I pay enough attention and don't dodge early, or do certain attacks just home in? Could I have dodged the sliding attack anyway or was it always going to hit? On and on and on. Just to be clear, basically everyone who isn't a gimmick account agrees with you on everything that needs to be fixed. Taffer posted:It's PvE not competitive PvP. It's okay if the game dumps on you sometimes, it's not the end of the world if you lose some rounds to bad RNG, nothing is lost except a little time and it helps you and your team get better. The game is essentially Dungeon Master'ing us through an adventure. It's good for the DM to challenge the party and present them with scenarios where mistakes can result in defeat, but it's bad when the DM just drops rocks on their heads and kill everyone because they can. There are enough variables in the game that even a well-tuned system might periodically turn out an unwinnable scenario, but those are bad outcomes that should be minimized and it's incredibly obvious that the current director is missing some sanity checks that allow it to blatantly poo poo on the party.
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Mar 28, 2018 07:58
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To be clear, if I was truly epicly pissed off, I would simply leave. I don't put time in to things I don't find value in. I'm just not one to blunt my opinion. I highly look forward to when Fatshark finally fixes everything. I know they will because they stuck with VT1 despite how big of a flop it was after release. VT2 is not only popular.. but profitable. They'd be lunatics to cash in their chips now when they stuck through VT1 till it dragged it's player base back by the ears. edit: I even bought one of my friends the DLC maps when the game came back from the land of the dead and disowned. A thing I never thought I would do originally. The story of VT1's lifespan is impressive in a way. Fuuka Ayase fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 08:08
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Kanos posted:No, but you can't actually properly adjust or fix the director until everyone is playing on the intended playing field. How do you adjust how aggressively the director is allowed to spawn things if you don't know how powerful the players are going to be because of version differences? How do you adjust how dense hordes are allowed to spawn if you don't know how well the players can cleave/crowd control? How do you balance classes if a third of the talents are completely broken and some class passives(poor zealot) literally do nothing? I can deal with multiplayer videogame limitations like sliding enemies and tracking attacks, what I can't deal with is AI director deciding it's time to turbofuck you in the rear end by silently spawning 4 specials at once during a horde fight, all behind you. Legend runs are a series of dice rolls right now.
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Mar 28, 2018 08:09
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The sliding and tracking are not multiplayer things as they verifiably happen host side to the host.
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Mar 28, 2018 08:11
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Devs fixing their game and designers deciding on balance changes should be two independent processes anyway. This may have tripped up the designers badly temporarily but I doubt it's gonna slow down the bug fixing. Unless it is literally a skeleton crew then welp.
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Mar 28, 2018 08:17
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Fuuka Ayase posted:The sliding and tracking are not multiplayer things as they verifiably happen host side to the host. And they can be played around. You can't play around a silent chaos patrol dropping from a cliff during a boss fight, or two hookrats spawning 3 feet behind you.
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Mar 28, 2018 08:20
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Rascyc posted:
I don't want to live in a world where skeletons can code.
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Mar 28, 2018 08:22
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It can't be played around when GAS GAS GAS starts playing and the chaos warrior drifts 90 degrees around a blind corner. Having started and completed the attack while still out of sight.
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Mar 28, 2018 08:24
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sandball posted:I don't want to live in a world where skeletons can code. that is exactly the world i want to live in
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Mar 28, 2018 08:26
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chesnok posted:And they can be played around. You can't play around a silent chaos patrol dropping from a cliff during a boss fight, or two hookrats spawning 3 feet behind you. skating enemies can't be played around in a real manner because the skating is not consistent and you have no visual feedback for when it is happening. opportunities to do damage in melee come and go in under a second; right now you can't be sure what your enemy is doing and you can't discern if an opportunity is real or not. that's completely, 100% unacceptable. Taffer posted:It's PvE not competitive PvP. It's okay if the game dumps on you sometimes, it's not the end of the world if you lose some rounds to bad RNG, nothing is lost except a little time and it helps you and your team get better. If it was competitive PvP it would of course be a different story fwiw the bolded part is purest nonsense. you get better at a game when you are able to identify a mistake and can take action to address that mistake. skating enemies, phantom hits, and outright unfair spawns (i've had a chaos patrol spawn behind us, and path to our position, a stormvermin patrol spawn AHEAD of us, and head toward our position, and Stormy get spawned DIRECTLY ON TOP OF our position to bring a rousing end to a champ run of Righteous Stand - please tell me the improvement lesson i was to glean from THAT one) are all inconsistent behavior and provide nothing but frustration - which isn't a desirable experience in any game unless you're bennett foddy or something. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 08:27
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re: balance I agree that the sliding and attacks going through enemies etc is bullshit. They (and other bugs) are serious issues and need to be fixed. But the random behavior of the AI director is what makes this kind of game fun (same for L4D), it's utterly unpredictable and can be kind or cruel. The most fun games I have are when it's cruel - sure, usually that ends in a loss, but the chaos and excitement is what it's all about. You yell, smack rats, die, laugh about it and try to play in a way where that situation won't get you next time. I mean, personally I wish this game had PvP to augment its director a la L4D cause that will be an absolute blast, and that's where most of my opinions come from. I played the everloving poo poo out of L4D 1 and 2, almost entirely PvP because that's where the excitement is. An enemy trying as hard as possible to catch you at your most unprepared moment, when you're most overwhelmed. An AI director can't match that but it can least be super punishing. The fun isn't in winning, it's honing your playstyle and your teamwork to get better and better against overwhelming odds. Personally I prefer to play a game like this where surviving till the end is the exception, not the rule. Again, obviously I'm talking about issues separate from straight up bugs like sliding around corners, just the raw challenge. It's really boring that I can play champ with a team of people who aren't level 30, don't have nearly maxed items, and aren't used to playing together and yet can still get through a champ level with both grims and barely take damage. That's not fun, it's tedious. The entire purpose of legend is to be nearly impossible to win. It *should* be a massive achievement to make to the end with your whole team, and to do so with grims should be just barely doable by the most coordinated and prepared groups.
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Mar 28, 2018 08:37
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Taffer posted:I mean, personally I wish this game had PvP to augment its director a la L4D cause that will be an absolute blast yeah man i definitely don't get called enough racial slurs playing this game
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Mar 28, 2018 08:48
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You play with an elf, you absolutely do.
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Mar 28, 2018 08:50
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i need 5 other 13 year olds impugning my sexual orientation, alleged skin color, and religious affinity to really get it up at least 5
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Mar 28, 2018 08:51
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The randomness that is unwanted is in the occurrence of bugs or odd enemy behaviors. Not the randomness of spawns. So long as enemies spawn within reasonable limits, it's not really random. There's a fixed number of situations that can happen, and being prepared for whichever comes whenever is part of the deal. When I say within reasonable limits, I mean when the AI isn't spawning more enemy health (in the way of more bodies) than players can deal in DPS till they are simply crushed by the weight of it. Which currently is also an issue. Even the 'too easy' of Champion champion with everyone completely full on HP can end in seconds when the AI director decides things should just spawn and not stop.
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Mar 28, 2018 09:01
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Anyone have any tips on how to hold-kill with Axe/Shield? I feel like no matter how much I block, push, try to charge or spam light attacks, I always end up taking slight damage from rats and cant keep them constantly knocked back or kill fast enough to not have some inevitably hit me. Not much but it adds up. Also just played a level of Into The Nest with Grudge-raker and there was not a single god drat ammo box/pouch the entire map. Like, what the gently caress. I'm not touching that poo poo until I get a Legendary with some ammo-regen because that was extremely painful. Back to pistoling everything.
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Mar 28, 2018 09:20
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We did an Empire in Flames champion deed that had double specials and insta-death, and somehow we managed to do it without having a single person go down. Everything was sepia-toned as well (due to the insta-death), so the entire game looked like a 2000s era "realistic" gritty shooter. It was honestly the smoothest run I ever had and everyone was working together as a team really well. We then did a non-deed champion run of Against the Grain where we got turbofucked by two patrols, three blightstormers and a horde before we even left the original grain area.
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Mar 28, 2018 09:55
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The only "bullshit" spawns I feel are full chaos patrols with multiple warriors who spawn 5 feet away behind a corner, that poo poo should have a minimum distance it can show up and needs to always make noise when it does. Aside from that I say bring on the flood of rats, if anything there needs to be more rats, after every finale on a map there should be a endless stream of rats pouring in behind you and some specials trying to drag your teammates into them. Otherwise what's the point of the walk to the bridge of shadows if there aren't any threats on the way? just have a "message complete" pop up after the finale is finished if your just gonna blast intense music on a leisurely stroll to the exit. Ra Ra Rasputin fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 10:05
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It's happened a few times, I'm on the last leisurely stroll to the bridge of shadows which is in sight, then literally from both flanks and behind waves of ratmen come streaming in with loads of berzerkers accompanying them. It's quite exhilirating. I think the fact that it doesn't happen every time makes it better - you never quite feel safe even when you approach the bridge of shadows, as opposed to 'ok guys one more assault let's prep'. The AI director being a massive dickhead is a big plus in my opinion.
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Mar 28, 2018 10:25
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PureRok posted:But it is? The quote from the dev literally says there were two lines they forgot to edit. That's not a typo in a calculation, that's dev not getting merged into master  Mendrian posted:I mean, I get the game is basically unplayable on Legendary, It's perfectly playable on Legend though Fuuka Ayase posted:Losing is fine. Losing because the game has a 'kill the player' button at the ready at all times is unacceptable. How can I expect to improve if I can't tell when the game is cheating me or I made a mistake? How can I feel good about winning when I can't tell if I made no mistakes versus the game merely softballing me this time around? Harder and harder to tell the difference every single time. What should or shouldn't be there blend in, and you can't be aware of everything the game is doing at all times. Did I LET those enemies flank me, or did the game teleport them directly behind me? Did I try blocking too late, or did this normal enemy glitch through my block? Did I dodge improperly, was it netcode, or is the hitbox on the attack I tried to dodge the size of the grand canyon? Can I rely on improving a maneuvering based playstyle if I pay enough attention and don't dodge early, or do certain attacks just home in? Could I have dodged the sliding attack anyway or was it always going to hit? On and on and on. It's probably you. Record your gameplay and post it AggressivelyStupid fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 10:39
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Git Gud brigade to the rescue!
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Mar 28, 2018 10:56
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