Beet Wagon posted:

trucutru posted:

lol, you're getting downvoted by the shititzens in your own subreddit.

ColonoscopyExp posted:

I have kind of a bone to pick with some of you in this thread who actually feel bad for anyone that works there.

peter gabriel posted:

Beet Wagon posted:

Is this the part where I cry to reddit about brigading?

peter gabriel posted:

Hav posted:

I don't feel bad, but I understand the need for a job.

Is it that they're representing themselves falsely, and you don't think this is honest?

ColonoscopyExp posted:

I have kind of a bone to pick with some of you in this thread who actually feel bad for anyone that works there. CR and the management gang rightfully get the bulk of the scorn but I think some of you are missing a big part of the picture. This isn't Madoff and a few buds setting up some investment ponzi scheme, this is more akin to a large office building running phishing scams out of India/Florida. A lot of people are involved.

Even the lowliest dev knows what the score is. They know they can't deliver even 1/4 of what Cr promised. They probably justify it to themselves by thinking that they aren't the ones who made the promises.

But they are scum for multiple reasons (not every employee fits every one of these reasons but if you fall into even 1 you are morally culpable)

1. They stay at their job even though they know the game is unable to be delivered even remotely close to as promised. Their entire paycheck is derived from scam money gained under false pretenses. They are aware of this in 2018.
2. They stay at their job even though they are incapable of delivering what their bosses ask. (probably no one is with CRs insane demands but the point stands, its unethical to take money for a job you know you cant do)
3. Many show up on ATVs, streams, etc to perpetuate the scam.

To all the devs at CIG, get a real job. And if you whine that you can't get a job in the games industry, maybe it isn't for you. Because technically speaking you aren't in the games industry right now. You are in the scam/MLM industry. If you whine that you need the money. That doesn't give you the right to take it from others, often mentally ill, under false pretenses. You are scum. If you stayed for an additional 2 weeks after realizing it was a scam. You are scum.

I know it seems harsh but its 2018. Everyone is fully aware of what the score is. I'd love to get some feedback and a cogent explanation from someone in here on why the even lowly QA person at CIG is somehow not a scammer. Without all those employees Chris wouldn't have been able to scam even a small percentage of what was raised. The concept art, PU, etc is what brings in money for the scam on an ongoing basis. They are what makes this possible.

peter gabriel posted:

no john you are the bears

Twyst posted:

You sound like an rear end in a top hat.

ColonoscopyExp posted:

I am. But I am also correct.

ColonoscopyExp posted:

I am. But I am also correct.

ColonoscopyExp posted:

I have kind of a bone to pick with some of you in this thread who actually feel bad for anyone that works there.

ColonoscopyExp posted:

Basically yes. Their paycheck isn't derived from the profits of goods and services provided like most jobs, but from promises of those services that they know full well are undeliverable. I suppose you can feel bad for a mugger who needs money but that doesn't mean we allow him to mug people. Theres little moral difference between the two.

Twyst posted:

Having worked at lovely and non lovely games companies, I can tell you you're not. But what would I know, apparently I'm on the same moral level as a mugger because I knew a game I was working on wouldn't deliver but I wanted to make rent and eat.

Hav posted:

You don't actually stop a mugger mugging people, but you apply consequences to the act of mugging. You might even offer someone the ability to deter a mugger, but despite years of anti-mugging measures, it still occurs.

The moral arguments around crime and punishment are extremely deep, and bear some examination in their correct context, but you're mixing moral and financial arguments into a melange or pudding.

What you're actually doing is suggesting that you know the mental state and disposition of all the employees. This is not true. What you're suggesting is that each one of them knows that what they've been contracted to do is not going to reach fruition. This is not true. Apart from not actually seeing the contracts, there _are_ people engaged in producing a game, and they are _actually_ producing things, despite your thesis that they may as well be chair-jousting. You also seem to be suggesting that a conspiracy of ~300 people doesn't have one 20 year old that's a bit worried about 5-10 as accessory to wire fraud. This is, I feel, really loving far fetched.

See, we've done this _criminal_ dance a few times, and apart from the usual statutory instruments that kick in if there is a crime, there has to be a complaint. The complaint has to be taken up, and it actually has to hit the legal definitions for it to be a scam.

The problem with that is that as far as I can tell, they've been severing all business relationships with anyone that wants them, and removing the complaint surface whereever they can find it. It's details like that, that make this _bordering_ on a scam, but one of the things I really hate is this idea that everyone is engaged in malfeasance rather than just trying to work for a living. The people you should be looking to are the ones named in discovery, as those are the smoky room guys.

What was Erin walking away with? Millions?

peter gabriel posted:

A wise man once told me "being correct is not always the same as being right" and he was right and also correct, I picked up my stuff and left that place with a fresh outlook on life and a pocket full of sachets of mayonnaise, which I could never explain

XK posted:

The lower level employees don't necessarily have enough agency to throw themselves off the crippled ship. On top of that, a lot of them are even straight out of college and don't know any better.

ColonoscopyExp posted:

Pretty much yes you are on that level. What makes you think you aren't? Why do you think you have the moral right to continue taking that money if you think you can't deliver what people are paying you to do? Just because you need to make rent?

At least own that you are a thief.

Hav posted:

You don't actually stop a mugger mugging people, but you apply consequences to the act of mugging. You might even offer someone the ability to deter a mugger, but despite years of anti-mugging measures, it still occurs.

The moral arguments around crime and punishment are extremely deep, and bear some examination in their correct context, but you're mixing moral and financial arguments into a melange or pudding.

What you're actually doing is suggesting that you know the mental state and disposition of all the employees. This is not true. What you're suggesting is that each one of them knows that what they've been contracted to do is not going to reach fruition. This is not true. Apart from not actually seeing the contracts, there _are_ people engaged in producing a game, and they are _actually_ producing things, despite your thesis that they may as well be chair-jousting. You also seem to be suggesting that a conspiracy of ~300 people doesn't have one 20 year old that's a bit worried about 5-10 as accessory to wire fraud. This is, I feel, really loving far fetched.

See, we've done this _criminal_ dance a few times, and apart from the usual statutory instruments that kick in if there is a crime, there has to be a complaint. The complaint has to be taken up, and it actually has to hit the legal definitions for it to be a scam.

The problem with that is that as far as I can tell, they've been severing all business relationships with anyone that wants them, and removing the complaint surface whereever they can find it. It's details like that, that make this _bordering_ on a scam, but one of the things I really hate is this idea that everyone is engaged in malfeasance rather than just trying to work for a living. The people you should be looking to are the ones named in discovery, as those are the smoky room guys.

What was Erin walking away with? Millions?

Hav posted:

Someone told me that in marriage you can be right or you can be happy. Ten years later and my principles are still intact, even if my balls are in tatters.

Twyst posted:

Because I was getting paid to QA a game, which is what I was doing, lovely or not. Should everyone working on games that aren't going to deliver EXACTLY what has been pitched quit?

ColonoscopyExp posted:

Yes they should if they took money for it in advance. Most won't (lookin at you), but they should. The second you realize that its not possible is when you should be looking at leaving.

ColonoscopyExp posted:

Pretty much yes you are on that level. What makes you think you aren't? Why do you think you have the moral right to continue taking that money if you think you can't deliver what people are paying you to do? Just because you need to make rent?

At least own that you are a thief.

ColonoscopyExp posted:

They aren't working for a living. Working is providing goods and services in exchange for compensation, which has been warped here. Obviously the QA tester is not going to prison for fraud. I was speaking morally. And I didn't really want to get into crime and punishment, the mugger example was more to highlight and compare something most everyone believes is wrong, with what is going on at CIG.

peter gabriel posted:

I read that as your balls are in taters then and that's what we call potatoes around my way.

Twyst posted:

Because I was getting paid to QA a game, which is what I was doing, lovely or not. Should everyone working on games that aren't going to deliver EXACTLY what has been pitched quit?

ColonoscopyExp posted:

I can get behind ignorance. But I think at this point where CIG is even a fresh college grad knows the score.

Hav posted:

Tates are also testicles

peter gabriel posted:

By your logic though if I work at Burger King I should feel bad every time a Lesnick wobbles past, I mean I get your point but where do we draw the line? A guy plants a tree, tree gets cut down and made into paper, paper is used as a paper plane by some kid which is thrown into another kids eye causing the kid to stumble and fall landing on a shovel which does that comedy thing and whacks a dude in the gonads causing him to drop red hot coffee all over a nearby baby.
I mean, you gonna go after that tree planting dude for being a child abuser?