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Cojawfee posted:I liked when they got there and just assumed they'd get to keep their ship as if they were some A-Team special forces whatever out to save the solar system. Not enough people say "You're just a bunch of lovely rock hoppers who lucked into a fancy ship." I feel like that's going to come up now that they don't have much in the way of weapons left anymore. They stole a cop car and now it's out of gas and they don't want to go back to normal. But... they're not? They're an inordinately skilled and capable crew and are imbued with the most important attribute you can possibly have in a war, which is a wealth of good fortune. Taking the ship away as a punitive measure makes sense. Taking it away because they're dangerous as gently caress about stirring the pot makes sense. Taking it away and giving it to someone else because they're incompetents doesn't.
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Apr 22, 2018 23:20
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NTRabbit posted:I didn't say they were super rare, just that her class was the newest one in the fleet, which is why it's fielded in the big roles, while Bulk and Skull on belter Steady on, I wasn't saying they weren't. Like Crazycryodude said, they are force projection for MCRN's flagship class of battleships. The Tachi is top of the range. Wasn't the MCRN ship that atmosphere dropped in Venus also a Tachi type frigate(destroyer?).
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Apr 22, 2018 23:21
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Tachi/Roci/Penis was a cutting edge ship when she was built, but the Martian Navy is built on pushing the envelope and the Tachi is almost certainly no longer at that edge. She is also the smallest class ship in the MCRN. In any event, the most cutting edge patrol boat is still just a patrol boat. Tachi is the Martian equivalent to one of the small boarding vessels modern navies use to do inspections or boarding actions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visit,_board,_search,_and_seizure
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Apr 22, 2018 23:46
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Collateral posted:Steady on, I wasn't saying they weren't. Like Crazycryodude said, they are force projection for MCRN's flagship class of battleships. The Tachi is top of the range. Wasn't the MCRN ship that atmosphere dropped in Venus also a Tachi type frigate(destroyer?). The Tachi/Rocinante isn't a frigate or a destroyer, its a corvette and one of the smaller sized ships in Mar's fleet. Also 'force projection' of a big rear end space battleship is a funny idea. I mean if Mars has a battleship sitting on your asteroid or whatever, they already are Mar's projection of force. You think they bust out the Tachi so they can really show they mean business?
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Apr 22, 2018 23:52
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There would also be the need for picket ships as well, something to deal with smaller threats as well. Carrier groups exist for a reason. Though it kind of makes me wonder if there is any fighter craft in the Expanse setting. I guess the Tachi style ships can fulfill that role though.
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Apr 23, 2018 00:07
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twistedmentat posted:There would also be the need for picket ships as well, something to deal with smaller threats as well. Carrier groups exist for a reason. They were used as escorts and torpedo bombers. Carrier groups do indeed exist for a reason, only I doubt the crew of the Donnager got as much soap mixed into their food as I did because some marine doesn't know how to wash dishes.
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Apr 23, 2018 00:14
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twistedmentat posted:There would also be the need for picket ships as well, something to deal with smaller threats as well. Carrier groups exist for a reason. Not fighters, but drones. They used one in S1 to explore the Anubis!
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Apr 23, 2018 00:57
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twistedmentat posted:Though it kind of makes me wonder if there is any fighter craft in the Expanse setting. I guess the Tachi style ships can fulfill that role though. They are never mentioned in the books which makes sense as The Expanse is more hard sci-fi. A one-two man fighter craft would be at a massive disadvantage to ships like the Roci since she can already accelerate more then fast enough to kill her crew and the Epstein drive makes things like operational range a non-issue. A fighter would be less heavily armed and armored and would be worse at the sort of long range operations they would normally do for earth bound navies.
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Apr 23, 2018 01:06
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Carry far fewer missiles, CIWS ammo and I donno how big the in-universe railguns are but I got the impression that they're fairly large so they probably couldn't carry one at all.
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Apr 23, 2018 01:27
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Yea, you'd need magic wand tech to have fighters work like they do in other settings.
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Apr 23, 2018 01:45
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Not fighters, but drones. They used one in S1 to explore the Anubis! And to investigate Space Vice News.
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Apr 23, 2018 02:01
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Milo and POTUS posted:Carry far fewer missiles, CIWS ammo and I donno how big the in-universe railguns are but I got the impression that they're fairly large so they probably couldn't carry one at all. Railguns are indeed fairly large. The Roci doesn't have one, nor do most ships her size.
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Apr 23, 2018 02:03
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Toast Museum posted:Railguns are indeed fairly large. The Roci doesn't have one, nor do most ships her size. One might add one tho.
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Apr 23, 2018 02:10
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Turn the Roci into an A-10 and put a big ol fuckin rail gun right on the front.
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Apr 23, 2018 02:42
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ekeog posted:I think the show just hasn't progressed far enough for all fans to realize that every person in power thinks Holden is at best a naive do-gooder idiot, but the good news is that Chrisjen has just come aboard the ship. I mean, I totally get that, it's part of why he's so amusing. I'm totally looking forward to Chrisjen's reaction to waking up and seeing him, given that she knows more about why he is the way he is than anyone in space, including all of his crew members, it's going to be amaaazing.
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Apr 23, 2018 02:54
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EimiYoshikawa posted:I mean, I totally get that, it's part of why he's so amusing. I'm totally looking forward to Chrisjen's reaction to waking up and seeing him, given that she knows more about why he is the way he is than anyone in space, including all of his crew members, it's going to be amaaazing. Hell she had a heart to heart with his mom. “I’ll tell your moms what you’ve been up to. Now as to the DETAILS I share are up to you” has got to be a hell of a negotiating position.
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Apr 23, 2018 03:29
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I was literally thinking about how different it was that there were no dedicated space fighters in the expanse after waking up like either this morning or yesterday and the reasons for it. Since the epstein drive seems to actually need fuel, there's less fuel capacity in a 1/2 seat fighter. Less air supply and probably less air scrubbing capacity or redundancy. Less food and water supply. No place to poo poo in peace. No superluminal drives at all so you can't do the star wars thing of having escorts travel with their hosts. They might have some value as like a AWACS radar picket/patrol role, if you didn't want to dedicate a multi-billion dollar destroyer equivalent to the same.
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Apr 23, 2018 03:51
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They probably don't need pickets or scouts or anything. The point of a picket is to find out if the enemy is marching towards you. Carrier groups have planes in the air to see if there are other ships coming towards them. if you're in space, you can see literally forever. Anything a scout can see will be just as easily seen by the main ship.
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Apr 23, 2018 03:56
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Milo and POTUS posted:I was literally thinking about how different it was that there were no dedicated space fighters in the expanse after waking up like either this morning or yesterday and the reasons for it. Since the epstein drive seems to actually need fuel, there's less fuel capacity in a 1/2 seat fighter. Less air supply and probably less air scrubbing capacity or redundancy. Less food and water supply. No place to poo poo in peace. No superluminal drives at all so you can't do the star wars thing of having escorts travel with their hosts. They might have some value as like a AWACS radar picket/patrol role, if you didn't want to dedicate a multi-billion dollar destroyer equivalent to the same. As stated above it makes way more sense in this setting for drones and guided missiles to fit the "fighter" role. I bet you could find beltaloda crazy enough to hitch a ride on a drone though.
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Apr 23, 2018 03:58
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Cojawfee posted:They probably don't need pickets or scouts or anything. The point of a picket is to find out if the enemy is marching towards you. Carrier groups have planes in the air to see if there are other ships coming towards them. if you're in space, you can see literally forever. Anything a scout can see will be just as easily seen by the main ship. Yeah but there's rocks and poo poo. Planets and moons. Still be easier/safer/cheaper to do with automated satellites or drones or something. I'm not knocking the lack of fighters either. In fact I can see why they don't exist
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Apr 23, 2018 04:09
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Yeah the fundamental thing about manned spacefighters in just about any universe is that logically, a drone could do the same thing except better, faster, cheaper, and without the need to breathe/eat/sleep. It's nice that the Expanse universe actually acknowledges that.
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Apr 23, 2018 04:26
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yeah, unmanned drone swarms are more useful than manned star wars style fighter ships. easier to throw a hundred unmanned potentially dangerous drones at them than same number of manned vessels containing people who have to be trained.
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Apr 23, 2018 04:35
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uber_stoat posted:yeah, unmanned drone swarms are more useful than manned star wars style fighter ships. easier to throw a hundred unmanned potentially dangerous drones at them than same number of manned vessels containing people who have to be trained. This was well exampled by the missile swarm protecting the Razorback!
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Apr 23, 2018 04:39
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I've made my peace with not seeing my precious space dogfights, but I really want to see a proper missile spam exchange with literally 100 missiles coming from each side, minimum.
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Apr 23, 2018 06:30
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NowonSA posted:I've made my peace with not seeing my precious space dogfights, but I really want to see a proper missile spam exchange with literally 100 missiles coming from each side, minimum. There's actually a name for that: the Itano Circus
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Apr 23, 2018 07:52
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In some sense it speaks well of this series that I'm annoyed by the fact they don't have AI controlling all combat manoeuvres: it means many of the dumber things scifi tropes are avoided.
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Apr 23, 2018 09:01
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NowonSA posted:I've made my peace with not seeing my precious space dogfights, but I really want to see a proper missile spam exchange with literally 100 missiles coming from each side, minimum. you got half of one, with the nukes launched at Eros in season 2.
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Apr 23, 2018 10:43
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Cojawfee posted:I liked when they got there and just assumed they'd get to keep their ship as if they were some A-Team special forces whatever out to save the solar system. Not enough people say "You're just a bunch of lovely rock hoppers who lucked into a fancy ship." I feel like that's going to come up now that they don't have much in the way of weapons left anymore. They stole a cop car and now it's out of gas and they don't want to go back to normal. I think they've mentioned it more than once in the show, but the Tachi is legitimately theirs by salvage law. They were the only survivors of the attack on the Donnager, the Tachi would have been floating derelict, and they commandeered it to escape a legitimate emergency. There's probably all sorts of legal bullshit Mars could drop on them (imagine if a bunch of random pirates grabbed a US Navy destroyer that was just floating around at sea) and when they were suspected of blowing up the Donneger then it would be piracy and theft, but Tycho Station certainly doesn't have any legal authority to seize it. And yeah, it's definitely one of the most powerful ships around for its size -- it's a brand new Martian military ship from the latest line of corvettes, I don't think they've created more anything more advanced than the Donneger or Tachi. It's more of a missile boat than a patrol boat, we've already seen how well-armed it is and how it can take down larger military ships like in this last episode, or in the fight with the stealth ship. I really like it! Most of the time the heroes of whatever show are creeping around in a ship like the Serenity that's not built for a fight and are always at a disadvantage when they get shot at. Even the Millenium Falcon was configured for running away rather than a stand-up fight. I like that the Roci is able to get into a scrap a couple times a season and credibly threaten even other military ships.
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Apr 23, 2018 14:59
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Legal right or no, taking a highly advanced gunship away from such a small group with no connections is a mighty big temptation. What are Holden and company gonna do? Sue them?
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Apr 23, 2018 15:10
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bloom posted:Legal right or no, taking a highly advanced gunship away from such a small group with no connections is a mighty big temptation. What are Holden and company gonna do? Sue them? Possibly? I think the bigger issue is, while you could impound the ship and maybe take components off it to use elsewhere, you can't just take the ship and use it since the ships computers are currently only accessible to Holden and his crew (the martian guy transferred it to Holden during the escape before dying) and as far as we know Mars military has some badass encryption. I don't think you could just put a new computer system in and it would place nice with the other Martian systems either. If a group did take it they are pretty much taking it apart.
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Apr 23, 2018 15:19
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I'm not saying it would be easy to take it off them(as we of course saw), just that it's such an obviously tempting option that the Roci crew should have given it more thought. Even if they couldn't use the ship, it's advanced enough that even in parts it would be extremely valuable.
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Apr 23, 2018 15:30
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And I think Fred Johnson's threatened to do just that! But it's not at all a good look when a station just seizes a visitor's ship without any legal authority to do so. You don't want businesses to worry about having their ships improperly seized on a whim when they show up with a hold full of cargo. The option is certainly there for the Rocinante, but it's a big enough abuse of power that they'd have to weigh the benefits very carefully. Not to mention the dirty looks they'd be getting from Mars (and the UN!) for taking control of Martian military tech to reverse engineer.
Phenotype fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Apr 23, 2018 |
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Apr 23, 2018 15:33
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...and then FJ later went on to seize the largest ship ever from the Mormons.
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Apr 23, 2018 15:47
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Slashrat posted:...and then FJ later went on to seize the largest ship ever from the Mormons. Who needs a corvette when you can get Drummer to jam guns all over the massive Mormon ship and create the most powerful auxiliary cruiser in history 
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Apr 23, 2018 16:00
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NTRabbit posted:Who needs a corvette when you can get Drummer to jam guns all over the massive Mormon ship and create the most powerful auxiliary cruiser in history Which actually pretty stupid thing to do since it wasn't designed to be a warship. Its a bit like putting a ton of guns on a yacht and thinking you could hold your own against a navy destroyer. EDIT: better yet a Carnival cruise ship for all its maneuverability. Blackchamber fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Apr 23, 2018 |
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Apr 23, 2018 16:12
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Blackchamber posted:Which actually pretty stupid thing to do since it wasn't designed to be a warship. Its a bit like putting a ton of guns on a yacht and thinking you could hold your own against a navy destroyer. Well Jervis Bay held it's own against a heavy cruiser for 4 hours, and the Kormorant mutually sank a light cruiser. The idea isn't completely without merit. Blackchamber posted:EDIT: better yet a Carnival cruise ship for all its maneuverability. You don't say
NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Apr 23, 2018 |
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Apr 23, 2018 16:17
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NTRabbit posted:Well Jervis Bay held it's own against a heavy cruiser for 4 hours, and the Kormorant mutually sank a light cruiser. The idea isn't completely without merit. Held its own has a very loose definition in your mind doesnt it? "Jervis Bay was hopelessly outgunned and outranged by the 28 cm (11 inch) guns of the German ship, but it attacked the larger ship with its guns, firing more to distract the German ship from the merchantmen than with hopes of doing any damage." and it was sunk.
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Apr 23, 2018 16:23
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NTRabbit posted:Well Jervis Bay held it's own against a heavy cruiser for 4 hours, and the Kormorant mutually sank a light cruiser. The idea isn't completely without merit. It should be noted that both of those ships were lost in combat when they faced actual, military opponents... 
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Apr 23, 2018 16:23
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Blackchamber posted:Held its own has a very loose definition in your mind doesnt it? It successfully engaged a heavy cruiser for 4 hours which allowed the convoy it was escorting to escape. Auxiliary cruisers were a real thing, I haven't just made them up. e: such killjoys NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Apr 23, 2018 |
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Apr 23, 2018 16:24
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has the nauvoo been accelerating away from tycho station this entire time? Because that might become unpleasant, especially for belters.
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Apr 23, 2018 16:32
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