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U-DO Burger posted:lmao Someone in that thing went like Nazi sympathizers are sum and Isayama is horrible for it. To which someone pointed out that he is not a Nazi Sympathizer and they are clearly presented as the villains and being in the wrong. To which he stated whatever thats your opinion. Thats not an opinion.
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Apr 29, 2018 03:19
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No way the uprising arc is more than one cour. Seriously, go back and re-read it; you'll probably find it's not as long as you remember.
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Apr 29, 2018 04:54
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Hasn’t Isayama espoused some lovely right wing opinions before? If so, then I’m not sure I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt...
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Apr 29, 2018 21:52
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Looking around the only thing I could find was an article that found a private twitter account they believed to be Isayama's spouting some pro-imperialist stuff (which is bad but also unconfirmed, feel free to link something if you've got it though). Basically everything else was reading into the politics of the show directly, which some people have interpreted as pro-fascist, but I think it's a little more grey. I guess if you take a real surface level look at the story without actually reading it, you see that the analog for Jewish people in the story are literal monsters and read it as antisemitic, but that's pretty much directly contradicted by the fact that they're the heroes of the story (our secondary protagonist from the Marleyan point of view is also an Eldian). Without Marley there to weaponize titanization, the Eldians are all normal humans and are just treated like monsters by everyone else. The story is also very clear that their treatment at the hands of basically every other nation is bad and unfair, and based on an unknowable and possibly falsified history of Eldian supremacy. Basically if you're reading fascist sympathy in the story, you're assuming that the author showing how horrifying war is on all sides is a celebration of it, which is a really cynical take.
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Apr 29, 2018 22:12
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The series' theme has always been fighting for freedom against an unstoppable enemy. There's been a bunch of chapters with characters talking about how their suffering would be much less if they just accepted the supremacy of the titans/Marley, but they continue fighting because they were born into this world and have a right to live freely. Hell the titular Attack titan power is literally an extreme yearning for freedom. I don't understand how people interpret Nazi-sympathizing from the story (although I can see people getting riled up over the armbands and interment zones).
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Apr 29, 2018 22:50
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JahRoo posted:Basically if you're reading fascist sympathy in the story, you're assuming that the author showing how horrifying war is on all sides is a celebration of it, which is a really cynical take. Maybe they're just the major from Hellsing
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Apr 29, 2018 22:52
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Their are fascistic tones but that is mainly during the uprising arc and it’s never really explored further as the manga shifts almost immediately after.
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Apr 29, 2018 23:10
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The only thing I remember isayama being questionable on was a specific ww2 general he said some good things about, and the internet blew up about it. iirc it sounded kinda like how someone who might be a bit ignorant might talk about, say, Macarthur.
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Apr 29, 2018 23:18
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Captain Invictus posted:The only thing I remember isayama being questionable on was a specific ww2 general he said some good things about, and the internet blew up about it. iirc it sounded kinda like how someone who might be a bit ignorant might talk about, say, Macarthur. He based Dot Praxis on said general. Still it does sounds more like ignorance on how other countries viewed Akiyama.
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Apr 29, 2018 23:30
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CharlestheHammer posted:Their are fascistic tones but that is mainly during the uprising arc and it’s never really explored further as the manga shifts almost immediately after. I would say they were immediately deconstructed at the end of the arc, given the butt-feeding machine.
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Apr 30, 2018 00:20
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JahRoo posted:based on an unknowable and possibly falsified history of Eldian supremacy. Why are people always so quick to dismiss the Marleyian version of history completely out of hand? Yeah, they're probably embellishing things to excuse their own lovely behavior, but if the ancestral Eldians were even half as bad as they claim, that still makes them loving monstrous imperialists who reaped what they sowed. The rest of the world, by the way, don't seem to disagree with the Marleyian assessment of events either, and they loving despise the Marley too for being the current lovely global empire.
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Apr 30, 2018 00:41
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"reaping what they sowed" in this context, by the way, means being reduced by second class citizens stripped of rights and left to wallow in ghettos 
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Apr 30, 2018 00:47
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Why are people always so quick to dismiss the Marleyian version of history completely out of hand? Yeah, they're probably embellishing things to excuse their own lovely behavior, but if the ancestral Eldians were even half as bad as they claim, that still makes them loving monstrous imperialists who reaped what they sowed. I don’t think genocide and concentration camps are ever justified, IMO.
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Apr 30, 2018 00:48
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Eej posted:"reaping what they sowed" in this context, by the way, means being reduced by second class citizens stripped of rights and left to wallow in ghettos Though this is a good example of how Nazis can see it as being pro them.
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Apr 30, 2018 00:49
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Eej posted:"reaping what they sowed" in this context, by the way, means being reduced by second class citizens stripped of rights and left to wallow in ghettos I was referring more a coalition of enslaved races uprising to topple a tyrannical empire. (not unlike the current World War Titan, fyi) I mean what they did next was lovely as gently caress, sure, but if you didn't know that part of the story you'd be cheering for the Marley leading the charge with their also suffering allies against their cruel taskmasters. Just like you're doing for the Eldians right now. Kerning Chameleon fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 00:50
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There's some revanchism tones in AoT but it's not like they make anyone happy. Eren is a wreck, Reiner is an even worse wreck, Gabi is already falling into that pit. That's mostly why I can't agree with a fascist or imperialistic reading of AoT, war is always fuckin' miserable even if you're on the perceived "right side".
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Apr 30, 2018 01:03
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Dias posted:There's some revanchism tones in AoT but it's not like they make anyone happy. Eren is a wreck, Reiner is an even worse wreck, Gabi is already falling into that pit. That's mostly why I can't agree with a fascist or imperialistic reading of AoT, war is always fuckin' miserable even if you're on the perceived "right side". That's why reading this series as a straight drama is dumb. It's a Kafka comedy: learn to laugh at the misery and suffering, and it becomes so much more entertaining. The characters' lives are jokes, and their deaths are the punchline. Ymir's character arc alone is a Life of Brian-level gut-buster. Kerning Chameleon fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 01:06
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Why are people always so quick to dismiss the Marleyian version of history completely out of hand? Yeah, they're probably embellishing things to excuse their own lovely behavior, but if the ancestral Eldians were even half as bad as they claim, that still makes them loving monstrous imperialists who reaped what they sowed.  Based on this mostly. And I said possibly falsified, because while I think the Marleyan propaganda machine is mostly lying about what the Eldian empire did way back then, I think there are probably shreds of truth to their history.
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Apr 30, 2018 01:10
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Why do people still reply to Kerning Chameleon?
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Apr 30, 2018 01:11
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Why are people always so quick to dismiss the Marleyian version of history completely out of hand? Yeah, they're probably embellishing things to excuse their own lovely behavior, but if the ancestral Eldians were even half as bad as they claim, that still makes them loving monstrous imperialists who reaped what they sowed. All the people who might have anything to do with the Eldian Empire (if it even existed) are long gone. Punishing their descendants doesn't have anything to do with justice.
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Apr 30, 2018 01:11
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JahRoo posted:
Which is still better than most posters here, who seem to think it's not even worth contemplating that any of the Marleyian claims might have some measure of merit, no matter how minuscule. People sure do some crazy mental gymnastics to excuse their heroes.
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Apr 30, 2018 01:13
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Laughing at normal peoples suffering seems insanely hosed up. I don’t know why you live to tell people about that as it makes you sound like a sociopath.
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Apr 30, 2018 01:14
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Conspiratiorist posted:Why do people still reply to Kerning Chameleon?
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Apr 30, 2018 01:17
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CharlestheHammer posted:Laughing at normal peoples suffering seems insanely hosed up. You must be new here.
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Apr 30, 2018 01:18
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dis astranagant posted:You must be new here. I have seen him say that in other threads so I don’t think it’s trolling. Which is pretty worrisome.
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Apr 30, 2018 01:23
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It is possible for a kingdom to constantly perform mass killings on other groups without wiping them out. And the average Eldian is also a victim when they are transformed into a titan and ordered to kill others. Getting a titan serum injection is a form of death. All this is performed by a monarchy and a number of great houses, who possess controllable titans. There was an attempt to end this violence by King Fritz and Paradis, but it was sabotaged from within by a desire for social control and from without by House Tybur.
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Apr 30, 2018 01:24
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Which is still better than most posters here, who seem to think it's not even worth contemplating that any of the Marleyian claims might have some measure of merit, no matter how minuscule. Even if the crimes of their ancestors were every bit as monstrous as claimed (and given the manga's willingness to portray monstrosity, I'd give it even odds) that doesn't make the current Eldian's actions to defend themselves from a genocidal nation any less justified. What specific action do you think is being excused?
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Apr 30, 2018 01:26
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Schwarzwald posted:Even if the crimes of their ancestors were every bit as monstrous as claimed (and given the manga's willingness to portray monstrosity, I'd give it even odds) that doesn't make the current Eldian's actions to defend themselves from a genocidal nation any less justified. Zackley's continued existence as the effective leader of the Walldians, for starters.
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Apr 30, 2018 01:31
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Gantolandon posted:I would say they were immediately deconstructed at the end of the arc, given the butt-feeding machine.
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Apr 30, 2018 01:43
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The question of what really happened in the past is a kinda interesting one to me, because the presence of the Titans and their powers adds an element of myth that just murks up the already-tends-to-be-murky nature of history. I don't doubt that the first inheritors of the Titans reacted to their superhuman abilities by going "Y'know what'd be great?! Total domination over all other peoples!" but all this poo poo about a divine blessing and King Fritz willingly deciding to just gently caress off to an island out of the goodness of his heart and whatnot is probably about as true as titans having scoured all of mankind except for the inhabitants within the walls And I don't think anyone is saying that Paradisians are saints. I kinda don't see how they could be, considering they've been living inside a deeply militarized pressure cooker under assault by giant zombies ruled by a bona-fide secret police-equipped conspiracy for a few hundred years. But at the end of the day, this conflict basically boils down to "The people who want to be free" VS "The people who want to murder and/or enslave all the people who want to be free"
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Apr 30, 2018 02:09
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OnimaruXLR posted:The question of what really happened in the past is a kinda interesting one to me, because the presence of the Titans and their powers adds an element of myth that just murks up the already-tends-to-be-murky nature of history. so just so we're clear, when the eldians win the war and turn into a horrible empire themselves, we're all going to be cheering for the plucky put-on marley in their scrappy resistance, right
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Apr 30, 2018 02:14
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If it goes that way, sure But it'd be pretty stupid of them to jeopardize any chance they have at the freedom they're so hungry for by picking a fight with the entire world Even Eren isn't that stupid. Once he's convinced that the fight against Marley is over, he'd probably spend the rest of his short life getting bullied by Mikasa into some sad parody of domesticity
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Apr 30, 2018 02:29
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OnimaruXLR posted:If it goes that way, sure What makes you think the world won't come picking the fight with them? Whatever third-party allies the Eldians have made are most likely planning to stab them in the back the moment they think both the Eldians and the Marely have been weakened enough to take both out.
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Apr 30, 2018 02:35
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Yeah AOT is clearly hitting end game and I don’t think it goes that depressing.
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Apr 30, 2018 02:36
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CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah AOT is clearly hitting end game and I don’t think it goes that depressing. Yes, this Fourth Ninja War arc is clearly the end and should wrap up pretty quick, I agree.
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Apr 30, 2018 02:38
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I never said quick but this conflict is literally the narrative endpoint that raps the titans up. I don’t see much of a point with continuing on after this. It could but it would be rather pointless..
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Apr 30, 2018 02:41
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CharlestheHammer posted:I never said quick but this conflict is literally the narrative endpoint that raps the titans up. I don’t see much of a point with continuing on after this. It could but it would be rather pointless.. It really doesn't feel this way to me. This feels more like the beginning of the last act than the last scene, so to speak. This war is going to go on for much longer than I think you realize, and it's fallout is going to be much much messier than you seem to believe as well.
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Apr 30, 2018 02:44
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Kerning Chameleon posted:It really doesn't feel this way to me. This feels more like the beginning of the last act than the last scene, so to speak. This war is going to go on for much longer than I think you realize, and it's fallout is going to be much much messier than you seem to believe as well. I don’t know why your obsessed with length as an arc can be endgame and go for however long as it wants. The Chimera Ant Arc is one arc and it’s like half the manga.
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Apr 30, 2018 02:52
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CharlestheHammer posted:I don’t know why your obsessed with length as an arc can be endgame and go for however long as it wants. The Chimera Ant Arc is one arc and it’s like half the manga. I don't know why you're obsessed with this morally grey manga wrapping up nice and tidy with a bow wrapped around the good guys prevailing over evil and ushering in an era of unambiguous peace forever.
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Apr 30, 2018 02:55
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Because there is no real evidence it will mostly.
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Apr 30, 2018 02:57
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