[Guillotine.txt] Hang 'em by their bootstraps.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Guillotine.txt] Hang 'em by their bootstraps.

The Dipshit: Dec 21, 2005; by FactsAreUseless

Shugojin posted:

Just throwing this out there, but a really super important function of medical personnel is to get the patient to actually tell the full story, including anything they don't realize is relevant because they are not a doctor

Computer is very far behind on that front

THIS. It is hell and high water to get a patient history out of a patient, especially if they are doing drugs. Good loving luck getting them to actually write it down in a case where they don't have confidentiality.

It'll be super helpful to the nurse and the MD and all that, and their throughput will increase massively, but you'll still probably want people to deal with people.

# ? May 2, 2018 15:07

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# ? May 14, 2024 04:34

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

Teal posted:

Yeah for many of the surgical procedures even today the very best (both long term cheapest and most efficient/least risky) option is using robot manipulators stabbed into a guy as a tube that has the manipulators at the end, controlled via a video stream and joysticks, with the doctor being in another room of the same hospital just cause it can be more practical that way (no need to sterilise what's basically a gaming console).

The clinic won't disappear, it'll be mostly just nurses and omnisurgeons on standby who'll just sit there and watch in case something goes wrong while the actual specialist works from two cities over. The total number of doctors and mainly the specialists needed will be much lower as they'll be able to do surgery in a different place daily.

lol robotic laparoscopic surgery is done in the same room using a team of doctors because it turns out that:

1) having direct access to the patient is actually important for surgery

2) you still need other regular-rear end surgeons to assist for different steps or if something fucks up

also laparoscopic surgery isn�t appropriate for all surgery, and handwaving away �well we�ll eventually robotisize stuff like open heart procedures� entirely misses the point on why this isn�t already a thing

also most doctorin isn�t surgery of course. it�s walkin into the room and using your human judgement and knowledge and experience to ascertain both a problem with a person and the best methods of treating that problem

in order to do that task for even something simple like sussing out a chronic pain sufferer from a drug seeker requires at the v least a physical examination by the doctor. the only remote work that even shows a hint of promise is radiology and other imaging analysis, since de rigeur there is to keep the radiologist in the dark (heh) about any preliminary diagnosis so their judgement is not affected

also your �remote doctor� solution implies that physicians would somehow gain significant efficiency in patient numbers over walking between a hallway of adjacent examination rooms or that they might accomplish this work in addition to a 60-80 hour workweek

or that strong ai will save us which is always good for a laugh

# ? May 2, 2018 15:27

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

Wheeee posted:

you fuckin morans get outta here with this computer bullshit what you think a company is ever gomna pay thousands of dollars to put some giant computer on everyone's dedk how are people even gonna use this thing paper tracking works way better and faster!!!

my favourite thing about imbeciles who insist machine learning is all bullshit are so convinced that theyre the smart ones, its not even a matter of honest questions, just arrogant dismissals of something they arent intelligent enough to conceptualize

just lol if you hear the words, immediately assume the person is talking about strong AI out of some scifi show, and begin authoritatively scoffing and acting like youre the very stable genius in the room

lol source your quotes

# ? May 2, 2018 15:28

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

Triangle Shirt Factotum posted:

THIS. It is hell and high water to get a patient history out of a patient, especially if they are doing drugs. Good loving luck getting them to actually write it down in a case where they don't have confidentiality.

It'll be super helpful to the nurse and the MD and all that, and their throughput will increase massively, but you'll still probably want people to deal with people.

no you see we�re going to have omninurses that have the training of primary care physicians or internists to take over that work but we�ll call them omninurses instead and still require a real physician to sign off and take responsibility for everything in the clinic located in australia

# ? May 2, 2018 15:31

ikanreed: Sep 25, 2009; I honestly I have no idea who cannibal[SIC] is and I do not know why I should know.

syq dude, just syq!

"It doesn't work, like the 80s computer terminal applications" i continue to insist as I shrink and Alexa orders me corncobs

# ? May 2, 2018 15:38

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

lol robotic laparoscopic surgery is done in the same room using a team of doctors because it turns out that:

1) having direct access to the patient is actually important for surgery

2) you still need other regular-rear end surgeons to assist for different steps or if something fucks up

also laparoscopic surgery isn’t appropriate for all surgery, and handwaving away “well we’ll eventually robotisize stuff like open heart procedures” entirely misses the point on why this isn’t already a thing

also most doctorin isn’t surgery of course. it’s walkin into the room and using your human judgement and knowledge and experience to ascertain both a problem with a person and the best methods of treating that problem

in order to do that task for even something simple like sussing out a chronic pain sufferer from a drug seeker requires at the v least a physical examination by the doctor. the only remote work that even shows a hint of promise is radiology and other imaging analysis, since de rigeur there is to keep the radiologist in the dark (heh) about any preliminary diagnosis so their judgement is not affected

also your “remote doctor” solution implies that physicians would somehow gain significant efficiency in patient numbers over walking between a hallway of adjacent examination rooms or that they might accomplish this work in addition to a 60-80 hour workweek

or that strong ai will save us which is always good for a laugh

lol if you think that "remote doctoring is far lower-quality than in-person doctoring" somehow invalidates "the four bottom quintiles of American earners are all going to be served exclusively by remote doctors in twenty years". just look at our broken-rear end system. no one gives a gently caress if a chronic pain sufferer gets treated right unless they're a millionaire - just give them a bottle of opiates if they're white and a "get the gently caress out of here, druggie scum" if they're black, and bill insurance for fifty bucks per minute spent with the patient

human decision-making isnt going to be completely eliminated in our lifetimes. the focus of automation is going to be using it "efficiently" - by which I mean, efficiently for the companies siphoning off the profits, which means as few human decision-makers as possible working as few billable hours as possible. leaning as heavily as possible on remote work for any procedure that's even slightly routine allows companies to go to a call center model, or even worse, an Uber model (where all the doctors are on-call independent contractors who are only paid when they're actually working with a patient)

# ? May 2, 2018 15:38

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

Main Paineframe posted:

no one gives a gently caress if a chronic pain sufferer gets treated right unless they're a millionaire - just give them a bottle of opiates if they're white and a "get the gently caress out of here, druggie scum" if they're black, and bill insurance for fifty bucks per minute spent with the patient

# ? May 2, 2018 15:44

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

no you see we�re going to have omninurses that have the training of primary care physicians or internists to take over that work but we�ll call them omninurses instead and still require a real physician to sign off and take responsibility for everything in the clinic located in australia

it's me, I'm the omninurse. I have a vaguely remembered six week TAFE course on medicine and I'm drunk.

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

uh

that's 100% accurate

# ? May 2, 2018 15:50

Teal: Feb 25, 2013; by Nyc_Tattoo

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

also most doctorin isn�t surgery of course. it�s walkin into the room and using your human judgement and knowledge and experience to ascertain both a problem with a person and the best methods of treating that problem

in the end it turns out the only thing that's actually doing the healing is human love

You either don't realize or don't want to accept how much of doctorwork by volume is obvious decisions made without second thought decided at first glance, not to mention all the checkups that go *person turns up, answers all questions with "yep, I'm doing ok, that bit doesn't hurt either" and leaves*

Teal has issued a correction as of 16:10 on May 2, 2018

# ? May 2, 2018 16:08

hackbunny: Jul 22, 2007; I haven't been on SA for years but the person who gave me my previous av as a joke felt guilty for doing so and decided to get me a non-shitty av

Wheeee posted:

you fuckin morans get outta here with this computer bullshit what you think a company is ever gomna pay thousands of dollars to put some giant computer on everyone's dedk how are people even gonna use this thing paper tracking works way better and faster!!!

my favourite thing about imbeciles who insist machine learning is all bullshit are so convinced that theyre the smart ones, its not even a matter of honest questions, just arrogant dismissals of something they arent intelligent enough to conceptualize

just lol if you hear the words, immediately assume the person is talking about strong AI out of some scifi show, and begin authoritatively scoffing and acting like youre the very stable genius in the room

I don't know if you noticed, but computers aren't especially good at what they do. Just fast and cheap

# ? May 2, 2018 16:08

Teal: Feb 25, 2013; by Nyc_Tattoo

hackbunny posted:

I don't know if you noticed, but computers aren't especially good at what they do. Just fast and cheap

I know I'm not who you asked I really haven't noticed no

# ? May 2, 2018 16:13

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

i mean, hp hover isn't wrong that Skype doctoring is usually going to be massively inferior to being in the same room as the doctor, and remote procedures have some pretty clear limitations

but this is America, where "does this make the CEO the most money" is far higher on the list of priorities than "is this the most effective way of meeting people's needs"

don't think of fully-automated luxury space communist doctoring, think of "well, your insurance covers Skyping with a doctor for free but requires you to pay a 50% copay for an in-person visit". people make sub-optimal healthcare choices all the loving time just because the best way is more expensive and our entire system is unaffordable

# ? May 2, 2018 16:28

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

they do this now btw

my insurance offers a free service where i can text questions to a physician service to try and route me past a pcp or to an urgent care clinic instead of the emergency room

# ? May 2, 2018 16:39

Shugojin: Sep 6, 2007; THE TAIL THAT BURNS TWICE AS BRIGHT...

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

they do this now btw

my insurance offers a free service where i can text questions to a physician service to try and route me past a pcp or to an urgent care clinic instead of the emergency room

Mine too, I thought it was the dumbest thing I ever heard when they were trying to sell me on using it

# ? May 2, 2018 16:48

hackbunny: Jul 22, 2007; I haven't been on SA for years but the person who gave me my previous av as a joke felt guilty for doing so and decided to get me a non-shitty av