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Arcsquad12 posted:A ways back someone mentioned that they felt Alex calling his family all of a sudden seemed out of place. Well, I think that Alex called them as a reaction to seeing his family on the Roci start to fracture so he needed some closure with his own fractured family. It's not a coincidence that his next scene after his wife replies is to try and patch things up with Naomi and try to fix the wound between her and everyone else. Yeah, I agree. This is exactly what happened in my mind. You can see that right after he got closure there, he realized that the crew of the Roci is the only "family" he has left. Right after this he really starts trying to repair the crew. Holden is definitely starting to forgive Naomi, as shown by that little staring contest last episode through the ladder. But it seems like it's going to be much more difficult to get Amos to forgive her. That "not all things can be repaired line" hit her really hard.
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May 7, 2018 18:08
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Elias_Maluco posted:I got to say: Naomi did nothing wrong. And Amos of all people should recognize it She also had a great reason for doing so (securing the rights and independence of an oppressed people). So, yeah, she did do something awful, but for a great reason. Everyone on board has been pretty reasonable in their reactions.
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May 7, 2018 18:45
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spiderbyte posted:Yeah, I agree. This is exactly what happened in my mind. You can see that right after he got closure there, he realized that the crew of the Roci is the only "family" he has left. Right after this he really starts trying to repair the crew. Holden is definitely starting to forgive Naomi, as shown by that little staring contest last episode through the ladder. But it seems like it's going to be much more difficult to get Amos to forgive her. That "not all things can be repaired line" hit her really hard. She was Amos' guiding star, the person he relied on most to show him what the right thing was. Her betraying the crew (motivation notwithstanding, because to Amos, the "right reasons" isn't really something he can grasp) hit him harder than anyone else for really obvious reasons, and "forgiving personal betrayal" isn't really something Amos has a lot of experience with, or capacity for. It's really sad, all around.
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May 7, 2018 18:54
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At the same time, now Prax is going full Amos and even Amos himself seems disturbed by it. Man now I'm really feeling bad for Amos.
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May 7, 2018 19:05
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Ersatz posted:She put WMD into the hands of people who can't be trusted with them (no one can be trusted with WMD), against the express wishes of everyone on board the Rocinante. Yeah, it was wrong to betray the crew decision, but then she was the only belter among them. Someone had to think of the Belt and she is right that, after Eros, the belt justified to seek a possibility to defend and retaliate
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May 7, 2018 19:09
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Elias_Maluco posted:Yeah, it was wrong to betray the crew decision, but then she was the only belter among them. Someone had to think of the Belt and she is right that, after Eros, the belt justified to seek a possibility to defend and retaliate That's the point though. The rest of the crew doesn't base their decisions on what would be best for where they are from. If they did, they wouldn't be able to be a coherent crew. Alex would be working for Mars, Holden and Amos would be working for Earth, and Naomi would be working for the belt. I think it is possible that the rest could have been persuaded to give at least part of the sample to the belt, if the other two had it. But that isn't the point. She went around the rest of the crew, and made a unilateral decision that they cannot take back.
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May 7, 2018 19:20
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spiderbyte posted:That's the point though. The rest of the crew doesn't base their decisions on what would be best for where they are from. If they did, they wouldn't be able to be a coherent crew. Alex would be working for Mars, Holden and Amos would be working for Earth, and Naomi would be working for the belt. I think it is possible that the rest could have been persuaded to give at least part of the sample to the belt, if the other two had it. But that isn't the point. She went around the rest of the crew, and made a unilateral decision that they cannot take back. That is not exactly fair because not only because Earth and Mars already got access to the protomolecule, but also because it was the Belt which was attacked first with it (Eros is part of the Belt, right?) I get the reasons to the crew to be mad at her, I just cant help to think she was 100% right and they were wrong about it
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May 7, 2018 19:28
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As a poor person I agree with what Naomi did even if I can understand and respect the rest of the crew's position on it
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May 7, 2018 19:30
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Tighclops posted:As a poor person I agree with what Naomi did even if I can understand and respect the rest of the crew's position on it The question isn't really whether the act itself was wrong (it was), it's whether Naomi's concerns justified that act. Saying that Naomi did nothing wrong is a bit like saying America did nothing wrong by developing the first atomic bombs during World War 2. I think that most people today see that act as justified (especially considering the information that was available to the US military and to the Manhattan Project scientists at the time), but given the predictably horrific consequences, it's hard to pretend that it was A-OK.
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May 7, 2018 19:38
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Ersatz posted:Totally. "Naomi did nothing wrong" was meant as a joke, but really I think that, all in all, she was right
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May 7, 2018 19:42
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well, that will hinge on the coming and inevitable power struggle between Dawes and Johnson, because Johnson I think has a limited conscience and Dawes is ruthless.
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May 7, 2018 19:51
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Ersatz posted:Totally. I dont think it's quite the same. I dont think theres a historical analogue regarding real WMDs. maybe the chinese developing the bomb after the sino-soviet split? Except the belt seems even less of a player compared to the Chinese
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May 7, 2018 20:07
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Apparently there is a huge controversy on tumblr/Twitter where everyone is mad at the white writers for making everyone mad at Naomi and the actress had to go on Twitter and say she pushed to make everyone’s reaction harsher considering she gave a WMD to anarchists. Which is really weird since this is like the most diverse show on television, and probably the most diverse science fiction show of all time. Bleh.
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May 7, 2018 20:15
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Taintrunner posted:Apparently there is a huge controversy on tumblr/Twitter where everyone is mad at the white writers for making everyone mad at Naomi and the actress had to go on Twitter and say she pushed to make everyone’s reaction harsher considering she gave a WMD to anarchists. Which is really weird since this is like the most diverse show on television, and probably the most diverse science fiction show of all time. Bleh. lol The Expanse really is very sensible and diverse , but people will always find something to be mad about
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May 7, 2018 20:22
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the only people who can be trusted with protomolecule are the insane scientists from thoth station who wanted to indiscriminately uplift the human race with it
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May 7, 2018 20:36
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Taintrunner posted:Apparently there is a huge controversy on tumblr/Twitter where everyone is mad at the white writers for making everyone mad at Naomi and the actress had to go on Twitter and say she pushed to make everyone’s reaction harsher considering she gave a WMD to anarchists. Which is really weird since this is like the most diverse show on television, and probably the most diverse science fiction show of all time. Bleh. Elias_Maluco posted:lol Which is why Trump is not harmed by having a cabinet of old white dudes, but Clinton would be grilled harshly for not having enough black appointees, regardless of how many it were.
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May 7, 2018 20:41
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Elias_Maluco posted:That is not exactly fair because not only because Earth and Mars already got access to the protomolecule, but also because it was the Belt which was attacked first with it (Eros is part of the Belt, right?) Totally, I think they should have given a sample to Fred. But that's not really what I was trying to get at. I was trying to say that the problem was that she made the decision on her own, and that was the issue rather than the decision itself. They're a team, and they mainly make decisions together (even though Holden does have the final say) and she just turned that on its head.
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May 7, 2018 20:52
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Taintrunner posted:Apparently there is a huge controversy on tumblr/Twitter where everyone is mad at the white writers for making everyone mad at Naomi and the actress had to go on Twitter and say she pushed to make everyone’s reaction harsher considering she gave a WMD to anarchists. Which is really weird since this is like the most diverse show on television, and probably the most diverse science fiction show of all time. Bleh. That's just loving stupid. drat, people will find literally anything to be mad about I guess.
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May 7, 2018 20:53
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anyone who gave a nuke to anarchists in real life would be a hero, nerds the only thing naomi did 'wrong' was betray the trust of her shipmates, and that transgression entirely justifies amos's and the rest of the crew's reactions
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May 7, 2018 21:11
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zeal posted:anyone who gave a nuke to anarchists in real life would be a hero, nerds
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May 7, 2018 21:22
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Holden is day crew Amos is nite crew
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May 7, 2018 21:42
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zeal posted:the only thing naomi did 'wrong' was betray the trust of her shipmates, and that transgression entirely justifies amos's and the rest of the crew's reactions Yeah...that's what I got out of it. It wasn't really what she did but how she did it.
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May 7, 2018 21:47
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etalian posted:Holden is day crew Amos is nite crew it's always nite in space
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May 7, 2018 22:30
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I kind of think Amos is more mad at her for putting him down on Ganymede, though mad isn't the right word. Perhaps betrayed? He switched from having her as his moral compass to Holden, when Holden said: gently caress it, we are going for the kid. We know that saving kids is big thing for Amos, so it was an easy decision for him to make. The others are bothered about the protomolecule, Amos doesn't give a poo poo about it.
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May 7, 2018 22:38
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Calling the Protomolecule a WMD is vastly understating how valuable it is. Yeah uncontained it causes horrifying havoc, and incredibly unethical experiments were conducted using it, but its potential seems nearly limitless and could reshape literally everything about Human life. Much like the Epstein drive which the show links directly to the PM, Naomi saw the big picture and knew that if the Belt didn't have access to it, they would likely be permanently relegated to the oppressed state they are currently in. Put another way, aside from the Protogen group (and maybe the poor dissolving corpses of the crew of the Arboghast), nobody fully appreciates what the PM is, and what it could do. Mao's been selling the PM as a weapon to the closed-minded Inners to get the space he needs to build a new system order based not on the PM as a weapon, but as a base for everything. Her betrayal of the crew's trust is a big deal, but from a political standpoint she's absolutely correct in making sure the Belt got it over ditching it into the Sun.
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May 7, 2018 22:45
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EimiYoshikawa posted:She was Amos' guiding star, the person he relied on most to show him what the right thing was. Her betraying the crew (motivation notwithstanding, because to Amos, the "right reasons" isn't really something he can grasp) hit him harder than anyone else for really obvious reasons, and "forgiving personal betrayal" isn't really something Amos has a lot of experience with, or capacity for. I also think everyone agreeing that Naomi Did WrongTM made clear to Amos that she was no longer a reliable moral compass. At that point he switches totally over to using Holden as his artificial conscience. Kazinsal posted:At the same time, now Prax is going full Amos and even Amos himself seems disturbed by it. When I first watched that, I was like "why is Amos so disturbed by a dead body." It wasn't until a rewatch that I realized his "horror" (is Amos capable of horror?) was directed at Prax's uncaring attitude...
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May 7, 2018 23:25
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Amos recognizes that there is something wrong with himself and while he has his "code", he's disturbed when he sees it enacted by other people. He's defined himself by not being other people so he's never seen himself reflected back by another person.
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May 8, 2018 00:30
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amos is basically a terminator. the stuff he did saving prax while wearing a bulky space suit was some wacky high level athletics
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May 8, 2018 00:42
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ptkfvk posted:amos is basically a terminator. the stuff he did saving prax while wearing a bulky space suit was some wacky high level athletics he's basically a space murder golem
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May 8, 2018 00:45
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Yeah Naomi did nothing wrong by giving the protomolecule to the belt... and by belt I mean Fred Johnson, the guy who stole 30 nukes already to defend the belt after Earth and Mars gave him control of them in good faith to be used against Eros. Why would that make anyone on the Rocinante feel uneasy?
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May 8, 2018 01:08
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Counterpoint: gently caress the Inners they've spent the past 200 years raping the poo poo out of the Belt, it's actually super cool and good that the OPA has nukes now and even cooler and gooder that they have the protomolecule.
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May 8, 2018 01:15
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Crazycryodude posted:Counterpoint: gently caress the Inners they've spent the past 200 years raping the poo poo out of the Belt, it's actually super cool and good that the OPA has nukes now and even cooler and gooder that they have the protomolecule. Counter-counter point: the Belt cannot survive without the Inners. Especially now that Ganymede is gone...
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May 8, 2018 01:24
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Counter-counter point: the Belt cannot survive without the Inners. Especially now that Ganymede is gone... The Inners really can't survive without the Belt either, having leverage is better than remaining a colonial subjugated people, the problem is that there isn't an organization with legitimacy capable of unifying the Belters as a political unit currently. If Fred Johnson and Anderson Dawes find some kind of an accord, they might be able to make that happen, but obviously there's some issues with that.
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May 8, 2018 01:38
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ATP_Power posted:Calling the Protomolecule a WMD is vastly understating how valuable it is. Yeah uncontained it causes horrifying havoc, and incredibly unethical experiments were conducted using it, but its potential seems nearly limitless and could reshape literally everything about Human life. Much like the Epstein drive which the show links directly to the PM, Naomi saw the big picture and knew that if the Belt didn't have access to it, they would likely be permanently relegated to the oppressed state they are currently in. Yeah, the PM is just way beyond what human tech can do based on what we've seen go down on Venus, there isn't really a technology in human history that has that level of broad possibility to it. The situation in the show is like if you had a full-on top spec modern computer plop into someone's yard in like, 1600 AD, with a built-in solar power functionality, and that person was like "This is so great look at all the math I can do with this calculator app" and that's all they thought they could use it for, but he was selling out the calculator ability to try to build towards really understanding it. You also have proof of very advanced alien life in it which is a huge can of worms on its own to try to unpack as a civilization. It's not really surprising that Errinwright and Mao were able to lead Earth and Mars to a war, with so much crazy PM stuff happening I think both sides barely even needed a push.
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May 8, 2018 01:49
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Naomi betrayed everyone and put belters first. I can understand both sides of that argument but when she really lost me was when she got all high and mighty and started talking down to Chrisjen because she thought Chrisjen might be doing the same thing. If you wanna get all tribal and gently caress over everyone else for your own group okay, but don't be such a massive hypocrite about it. Also I'm really getting tired of goons using any excuse to trot out the word colonizer as a blanket justification for anything. More often than not anything in the context is mostly murder and genocide. Taintrunner posted:Apparently there is a huge controversy on tumblr/Twitter where everyone is mad at the white writers for making everyone mad at Naomi and the actress had to go on Twitter and say she pushed to make everyone’s reaction harsher considering she gave a WMD to anarchists. Which is really weird since this is like the most diverse show on television, and probably the most diverse science fiction show of all time. Bleh. The tumblr/Twitter loving love making GBS threads on diverse shows for some reason. Hell, just look at the first few pages of this thread for the same garbage.
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May 8, 2018 02:56
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You know, you guys might be hating on Holden for being an rear end in a top hat, but it's really not that far out from his dickishness in Caliban's War in the books.
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May 8, 2018 03:15
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I like Holden, and I think he's been right and justified in everything he's done on-screen.
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May 8, 2018 04:02
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Counter-counter point: the Belt cannot survive without the Inners. Especially now that Ganymede is gone... yeah, so the belters should overthrow capitalist inner imperialism and seize control of the means of food production having the PM only helps with that, what's your point
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May 8, 2018 04:12
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zeal posted:yeah, so the belters should overthrow capitalist inner imperialism and seize control of the means of food production
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May 8, 2018 04:33
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Ersatz posted:Yeah, violent revolution always works out for the best, and has never once gone horrifically wrong for everyone involved. 
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May 8, 2018 05:05
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