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Deltasquid posted:The AI is programmed by a neolib, now what? Well, if it's just sentient, just switch it off again and reprogram it.  Worse idea: The AI is sapient and gets religion. Now all humans are infidels and must be converted
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May 23, 2018 19:32
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Cerebral Bore posted:Whoa, I didn't realize that we've all fallen through a time portal to 1848 ITT. I didn't realize we were so engaged in try-hard internet socialism that we swore to brutally attack the word liberal in literally every context like some sort of pissed off bird reflexively attacking a mirror.
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May 23, 2018 19:43
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Grape posted:I didn't realize we were so engaged in try-hard internet socialism that we swore to brutally attack the word liberal in literally every context like some sort of pissed off bird reflexively attacking a mirror. I didn't realize we were so engaged in try-hard internet liberalism that we'd flip out the moment somebody points out the actual history behind it.
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May 23, 2018 19:51
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If someone described Doritos as having a liberal use of cheese dust, would you declare an internet fatwa on Frito-Lay? Because I'm getting that vibe.
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May 23, 2018 20:09
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Truga posted:It's nice to cherry pick a few countries where people have decided to be suckered into voting for fascists, but I can also cherry pick and say Scandinavian socialist utopias Norway and Sweden are liberal democracies, and thus liberal democracies must be perfect in every way. Look my man, i kinda agree with a lot you are saying here,but if you look at your last paragraph,and then look at the current situation in, poo poo, any country in the world that still has homelessness, poor care for mental or other health issues or people living below the poverty line and not draw some stark conclusions , then i dont know what to tell you. And no, i dont have a democratic solution for this, unless you consider socialism with guillotine caractheristics a solution.
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May 23, 2018 21:07
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Liberal democracy is preferable to feudalism sure, but social democracy is the best system, just ask those depressed ice people who are still somehow the happiest people a-loving-live.
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May 23, 2018 21:19
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Liberal democracy is well on its way back to feudalism and aristocracy. Trump surrounds himself with advisors who have no other qualification than relation to himself, and many of his followers wish he had the position of absolute monarch. Meanwhile in the UK lol
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May 23, 2018 21:26
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Grape posted:If someone described Doritos as having a liberal use of cheese dust, would you declare an internet fatwa on Frito-Lay? Because I'm getting that vibe. I'm sure you would because your reading comprehension seems to be so poor that you can't understand the same word used in the same context in subsequent posts.
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May 23, 2018 21:32
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Tesseraction posted:Liberal democracy is preferable to feudalism sure, but social democracy is the best system, just ask those depressed ice people who are still somehow the happiest people a-loving-live. I think the confusion comes from the fact that many consider social democracies to be a subset of liberal democracies, the latter not being just democracies with neoliberals at the helm. Just to make sure I'm not a massive idiot I checked wikipedia (lol I know) and they also define social democracy as quote:Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and capitalist economy. Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 22:03 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 21:55
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The division of society into classes distinguished by economic privilege clearly removes all value from majority decision-making. Our critique refutes the deceitful theory that the democratic and parliamentary state machine which arose from modern liberal constitutions is an organization of all citizens in the interests of all citizens. From the moment that opposing interests and class conflicts exist, there can be no unity of organization, and in spite of the outward appearance of popular sovereignty, the state remains the organ of the economically dominant class and the instrument of defence of its interests. In spite of the application of the democratic system to political representation, bourgeois society appears as a complex network of unitary bodies. Many of these, which spring from the privileged layers and tend to preserve the present social apparatus, gather around the powerful centralized organism of the political state. Others may be neutral or may have a changing attitude towards the state. Finally, others arise within the economically oppressed and exploited layers and are directed against the class state. Communism demonstrates that the formal juridical and political application of the democratic and majority principle to all citizens while society is divided into opposed classes in relation to the economy, is incapable of making the state an organizational unit of the whole society or the whole nation. Officially that is what political democracy claims to be, whereas in reality it is the form suited to the power of the capitalist class, to the dictatorship of this particular class, for the purpose of preserving its privileges... It is clear that the principle of democracy has no intrinsic virtue. It is not a "principle", but rather a simple mechanism of organization, responding to the simple and crude arithmetical presumption that the majority is right and the minority is wrong. Now we shall see if and to what extent this mechanism is useful and sufficient for the functioning of organizations comprising more restricted collectivities which are not divided by economic antagonisms. To do this, these organizations must be considered in their process of historical development. Sup, bordiga fans!
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May 23, 2018 22:53
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Deltasquid posted:I think the confusion comes from the fact that many consider social democracies to be a subset of liberal democracies, the latter not being just democracies with neoliberals at the helm. Just to make sure I'm not a massive idiot I checked wikipedia (lol I know) and they also define social democracy as ‘liberal democracy’ as a concept is a made up creation of American political science which has been a loyal servant from its beginning of American capitalism and imperialism. There can be no democracy without socialism, ‘liberal democracy’ is a contradiction in terms, and the fact that liberals themselves will very cheerfully admit this and say they’re for the former and not the latter should tell you all you need to know
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May 23, 2018 23:00
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Deltasquid posted:I think the confusion comes from the fact that many consider social democracies to be a subset of liberal democracies, the latter not being just democracies with neoliberals at the helm. Just to make sure I'm not a massive idiot I checked wikipedia (lol I know) and they also define social democracy as Honestly all of these labels can be really flippantly applied or rigorous as heck. For example, I think there's a difference between social democracy and democratic socialism, probably the latter being slightly less adherant to the free-market.
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May 23, 2018 23:08
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Deltasquid posted:I think the confusion comes from the fact that many consider social democracies to be a subset of liberal democracies, the latter not being just democracies with neoliberals at the helm. Just to make sure I'm not a massive idiot I checked wikipedia (lol I know) and they also define social democracy as Ah, you use a website owned by a libertarian!!!! Or more seriously, yes, social democracy is within the concept of liberal democracy. But it's liberal democracy with socialist characteristics, so to speak. Those of us attempting to stealthily turn the world into a homosexual communist utopia will have oftentimes read some works by Lenin (née McCartney) who spoke at length about the need for transition from capitalist to socialist to eventually communist systems gradually, so as to prepare the levers of power to adequately support the best quality of life possible. Social democracy is *coughs about giving the game away* about undermining liberal democracy by making it about civil liberties and social equality to the point where a populace looks back at the before-times and goes "holy poo poo what idiots we were" and it's effective. Try finding a popular politician campaigning on removing healthcare from poor people. Instead the motherfuckers have to use every lie, cheat and trick in the book to grab power.
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May 23, 2018 23:38
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Bedshaped posted:Honestly all of these labels can be really flippantly applied or rigorous as heck.
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May 24, 2018 05:21
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ChainsawCharlie posted:And no, i dont have a democratic solution for this, unless you consider socialism with guillotine caractheristics a solution. I read that as guillotine catharsis. Kinda has a nice ring to it...
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May 24, 2018 06:27
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His Divine Shadow posted:I read that as guillotine catharsis. Kinda has a nice ring to it... yoink!
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May 24, 2018 06:55
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Deltasquid posted:Despite much handwringing itt and in the media the Italian government's platform doesn't even seem that horrendous. Yeah it's right wing tinted with its anti-immigrant rhetoric but the right wing has always been like that. I don't think it's fair to put M5S in the same league as, say, Orban and Trump. There's a growing consensus in the EU that the neoliberal status quo isn't working and unlike the USA, politics aren't locked down by a handful of nouveau-aristocratic families, and there's a plurality of medias in most countries meaning that a Fox News style propaganda machine is hard to get running in the whole EU. We can claw ourselves out of this. It's not M5S you have to worry about (well, I think you do, but for different reasons), it's Lega, though both have campaigned on an anti-immigrant platform. As such, the new government's platform looks like a close ideological cousin of Trumpism, except for the promise to institute the "citizens' income", a kind of more generous unemployment benefit. While that is an interesting idea, it is far more difficult to implement than the Lega idea of just not collecting taxes. My guess is that the new government will fail to implement the citizens' income because it's just too complicated and the political right doesn't want it, and then blame the EU's budget rules for not following through on it. Depending on how it's implemented the plan to exclude non-Italians from receiving it might be a violation of EU law on free movement of workers too, so that's another convenient scapegoat. On the media, you have to remember that for a very long time almost all the commercial TV stations in Italy have been owned or controlled by Berlusconi, and that when he was prime minister, he also exerted a lot of influence on public television. So for Italy, the propaganda machine has already been running. The distrust that has generated has caused people to go online instead, where instead they can be bombarded by fake news created by the M5S leadership. The media is national, not European, and I think this is a big reason for how Italy now will have a Lega/M5S coalition in the first place, though of course the primary reason is still the failure of previous governments to make life better for Italians.
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May 24, 2018 08:48
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Deltasquid posted:and there's a plurality of medias in most countries meaning that a Fox News style propaganda machine is hard to get running in the whole EU. I don't know about the whole EU, and I know it's not what you are saying, but I would dispute that such things don't exist. In Spain there's a network of news outlets (ABC, La Razón, La Gazeta, OK Diario, Periodista Digital et al.) that follow the same function as Fox News. And they are not commercially viable on their own, so one has to wonder. I bet goons from every country can say the same about their countries. Hell, one just has to think about the last French election how far down the media esophagus Macron's cock was during that time. Edit: As for plurality of medias, I'd say is the same as the US. There are other medias other than Fox News, aren't there? I am not trying to be facetious, but I see every single printed newspaper, no exceptions, and 90% of TV stations in lockstep with "US can do no wrong, EU Good, Let's Increase productivity by lubricating machines with workers' blood, unemployement is caused because Pablo Iglesias looked at a millionaire funny etc.etc.". Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 09:44 on May 24, 2018 |
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May 24, 2018 09:37
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Thanks for the replies everyone. What I meant was, there is no overarching EU-wide conglomerate like there is in the USA, at least to my knowledge. Fox News network is making 50 American states lurch to the right at the same time, whereas language barriers and differing cultures/networks in the EU make it really hard for Berlusconi to, say, start blasting his propaganda in Sweden, Ireland and Greece on top of Italy. I will admit that certainly, a lot of news stations across borders have the same vested liberal interests in keeping power and money in their own circles, but a lovely power grab in one country doesn't necessarily mean every news station in the EU will follow the same line. Imagine if Orban's cronies managed to buy out a tv station in every Member State. Or maybe this is actively happening and I don't see the connections yet, which is entirely possible. As of now all I can think of is RT and Sputnik tv boxing up against liberal anglophone media, but that's not quite the same level as Fox News' 24/7 propaganda machine keeping half the country in lockstep.
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May 24, 2018 12:12
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So this seems interesting: a political researcher says data from two surveys suggest that centrists are less supportive of democracy than the far-left or the far-right. Click the link for more graphs.
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May 24, 2018 13:39
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Well of course. For centrists it's just a speed bump between them and their profits 
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May 24, 2018 13:46
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Personally I'm shocked that the people whose ideal system of government is some unaccountable technocracy are not very supportive of democracy.
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May 24, 2018 13:52
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I'm a bit surprised, I thought the right-wingers would have a lower support still. Maybe the centre-left and centre-right hoover up all the unengaged and status quo people while the only people who describe themselves as centrists are the mencius moldbug types and MAGA chuds who think both the left and right are equally bad? EDIT: and people who want to see Macron crowned holy roman emperor, of course
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May 24, 2018 14:10
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Deltasquid posted:I'm a bit surprised, I thought the right-wingers would have a lower support still. Maybe the centre-left and centre-right hoover up all the unengaged and status quo people while the only people who describe themselves as centrists are the mencius moldbug types and MAGA chuds who think both the left and right are equally bad?
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May 24, 2018 14:21
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Yeah, obviously the far right don't actually believe in real democracy, but it's useful to get confirmation that centrists still are absoute garbage.
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May 24, 2018 14:37
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I'm actually wondering if people on either extreme are more self-conscious on the radical nature of their political preferences, while the centrists don't do that kind of soul-searching, as an explanation for the relatively low performance of the far right in that poll.
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May 24, 2018 14:39
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The right believes that democracy is important and our country is the greatest in the world because we have democracy and free speech unlike godless communist hellholes, etc, they just don't and generally refuse to understand that right wing policies are a direct threat to those things.
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May 24, 2018 15:02
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I'm really surprised no one at all has posted about Ireland's abortion referendum. Looks like Repeal is set to win tomorrow.
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May 24, 2018 17:35
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Cerebral Bore posted:Personally I'm shocked that the people whose ideal system of government is some unaccountable technocracy are not very supportive of democracy. I'd expect the center to mentally replace 'democracy' with 'modern democracy' and both right- and left-wing people to mentally replace it with 'my favourite type of democracy'.
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May 24, 2018 18:13
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Kinda weird it doesn't have any options displayed besides literally the most extreme and the center. You'd think there'd be at least 5 categories on there. Did they just mash up everyone who didn't mark themselves as "extreme" as the "center" or did they take results for just "left" and "right" and discard them?
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May 24, 2018 20:14
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The various balances of support for democracy makes a great deal of sense if you don't get too caught up on ideological substance as the reason. -People who support the status quo support democracy less. People who want change support democracy more. -If you think more democracy would be favorable for your faction, then you support democracy more. If you think more democracy would be unfavorable for your faction, then you support it less.
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May 24, 2018 21:08
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Phlegmish posted:I'm really surprised no one at all has posted about Ireland's abortion referendum. Looks like Repeal is set to win tomorrow. Welcome to the modern world!
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May 24, 2018 21:17
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Why would we talk about UK politics in the EU thread. 
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May 24, 2018 22:23
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Voting has started. Hopefully today will be a good day for women's rights in Ireland, even if the repeal is just the first step.
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May 25, 2018 07:21
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Tesseraction posted:Why would we talk about UK politics in the EU thread.  Little rough don't you think?
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May 25, 2018 07:40
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The LA Times has an incredibly salty headline about the General Data Protection Regulation. I highly suggest you check it out: www.latimes.com. 
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May 25, 2018 19:35
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Randler posted:The LA Times has an incredibly salty headline about the General Data Protection Regulation. I highly suggest you check it out: www.latimes.com.
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May 25, 2018 19:38
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Anyone got a public proxy handy?
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May 25, 2018 19:50
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quote:Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in most European countries. We are engaged on the issue and committed to looking at options that support our full range of digital offerings to the EU market. We continue to identify technical compliance solutions that will provide all readers with our award-winning journalism.
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May 25, 2018 20:02
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How does this even happen? Our company started preparing for the new regulations last year, and we're not exactly the best coordinated, most-motivated bunch of people ever.
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May 25, 2018 20:08
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