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Voyager I posted:A lot of my Legend wipes are [bad thing we need to kite] + Horde choking all your space, so being able to vaporize them in a hurry isn't something I hate. the actual solution to this is not to have a horde specialist in its current form, however, because hordes can and will be everywhere at once due to their flanking code. the actual solution is for the bad thing that needs to be kited to be kited by one or maybe two people to free up the team to take out the trash. not even the best horde clearing tools can cover more than 2 directions at once, and most of them, like saltzpyre's volley, struggle even with 2. it's not unusual to be struggling with 3 or even 4 directions with hordes on champion and legend. in that context, flat out horde specialists STILL only makes sense in the context where hordes are constant and columns of enemies must be vaporized instantly just to make forward progress. which is what happens sometimes with send in the next wave. if you don't have someone around doing that, just stepping forward becomes a trial. beyond that you're better off being able to nuke the bad things quicker so the situation just comes up less often.
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May 24, 2018 19:17
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SuperKlaus posted:Curious, is the change to Prowl to be a 1.5x damage boost instead of 2x a reversion to the way it was in some former patch? I.... do not know, truthfully. I only started messing around with Huntsman in earnest and getting good at it the night before it got nerfed into the ground. The real problem isn't the damage multiplier in any case; it's the way shots register. Prowl was apparently screwy in a weird way that made every shot register as a headshot.... or something. As a result, the autocrit combined with the damage boost combined with the headshot damage would crank out fairly obscene numbers. They removed that such that it's still technically POSSIBLE to turn out the same kind of numbers Prowl had before (or at least close - it was still decreased to 1.5 from 2.0), but you would need to have flawless accuracy to pull it off so that every single shot was a headshot. With how fast bosses move and how small their heads are that's generally impossible. You can sort of do it on Stormfiends and Bile Trolls, but Stormfiends aren't really threatening anyway and Bile Trolls are only vulnerable when kneeling. And, when kneeling, they also health gate like crazy, so it's impossible to do more than stop their regen. You can't really hurt them while they're down, just keep them from getting health back. Bodyshot damage is a fraction of what it used to be and barely better than just wading in with melee. Again, you can still TECHNICALLY do almost as much damage as before, but you would have to aimbot to be landing constant perfect headshots and even then, only it'll only work on bosses if they're not facing away from you. (All bosses apparently have terrible posture and hunch over a lot, so their heads can't be hit from behind.) And Prowl just doesn't last long enough to be carefully lining up shots. Huntsman isn't useless. It's still Kruber's best spec for deleting specials, hands down. But that's really the only thing it's good at now, and you give up a lot of tankiness in exchange for that. It's a pretty lousy trade in my opinion. Still appreciating the new Keep banter dialogue, though. One of Kruber and Kerillian's interactions seems to once again hint that she has a crush on him; apparently she keeps pestering him over and over again to kick Salty to the curb, though she's a bit more coy about why Kruber following him bothers her so much.
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May 24, 2018 19:22
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im depressed lol posted:I don't really get why the game needs to have every character be able to deal with every enemy type as efficiently as every one else. Do you want a game where no specialization exists and every character is good at everything? Why even have classes/characters at all? not every character needs to be exactly as efficient as everyone else, but every character should be able to fill each individual role. sienna is literally the only character who lacks this distinction - no matter what she does, she will never be very good against armor, or bosses, or (arguably) specials. every other character can optimize for these things, though the tradeoffs vary and that's fine. and note that 'good' is used here in practical, not absolute terms. she will never be very good against armor in the sense that if there are 3 CWs it will take an order of magnitude more time and risk for her to deal with the problem than handgun bardin/kruber, recurve saltzpyre (esp with BH), or kerillian (esp with shade). ditto with bosses. if you wanted sienna to handle a boss for you, she kind of can, but it will take her much, much longer than slayer bardin, hunstman kruber, hagbane kerillian, or BH saltzpyre. and with that extra time comes extra risk. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 19:27 on May 24, 2018 |
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May 24, 2018 19:24
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May as well quit playing
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May 24, 2018 19:29
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The problem is honestly legend because of how much stupid armor there is--you were never intended to fight 13 rothelms in a row or every weapon would have a solid AP option. I've completed 3 maps on legend with a full book run they're completely doable but the amount of armor they'll throw at you is really stupid. I'm not even bothering with legend until the game is way more stable and bug free because that's when everything matters so a broken talent will make a difference. Just like cata in VT1 i see legend not as a normal balanced game mode but as something that's supposed to challenge you when your bored. The game should always be balanced around champ/nightmare, trying to say legend is the norm is just wrong. I also finally got on discord because of deathwing so now i'll have goons to try legend with because holy loving poo poo forget doing that with pugs. Trying to explain to people that we should wait in an area for the coming horde while they're all chasing green circles is so annoying same as having to explain behavior when specials spawn. Gas! means don't be standing still.
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May 24, 2018 19:34
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Backhand posted:I.... do not know, truthfully. I only started messing around with Huntsman in earnest and getting good at it the night before it got nerfed into the ground. 
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May 24, 2018 19:50
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Digirat posted:The dagger’s AP is quite bad and it’s a bad weapon in general since it isn’t good against groups either. The sword at least fantastic is at CC sweeps to make up for the meh AP. The dagger's AP is okay, but only on the second charge swing. It's better to ready the second strike by swinging at nothing before you get in range. It can be tricky but I'm finding it easier in 1.0.8. On armored dummies, the first swing only does two ticks of 25. The second swing does 200 per headshot no matter when you release it. This matches my experience against actual enemies. By comparison, my mace does 245 on a fully charged swing. However, the dagger sequence takes less time. With practice, you can *IN THEORY* get higher dps against an armored foe with the dagger than you can with the mace. In practice, the mace is still better. It's very difficult to get the second charged dagger hit against a Chaos Warrior who's up in your face.
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May 24, 2018 19:52
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it's very difficult to get a headshot on ANYTHING with that second charged swing and i'm really unclear on why. i have literally left sparks on a stormvermin's helmet and gotten the crosshair confirmation for a bodyshot, not a headshot.
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May 24, 2018 19:54
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It's canon
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May 24, 2018 20:08
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From the keep dialogue and their general interactions, it seems that Kerillian actually likes Kruber and Sienna...but she's an emotionally stunted teenager with no social skills who has no idea how to process or articulate positive feelings, so her fondness expresses itself as antagonistic nattering at best.
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May 24, 2018 20:10
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There are two pretty under-utilized mechanics to deal with Armored enemies in oh-poo poo moments and they are 1)Potions and 2)Stagger shown in concert here: https://gfycat.com/SecondhandJollyFlatcoatretriever I don't feel like getting a clip of using just Hagbane/Fireball stagger at the moment but I've completed tons of full-book Legend runs doing this. It's not too difficult to deal with multiple Chaos Warriors on Legend by holding a few at bay with Hagbane/Fireball(or other staff) stagger while your armor-trashing teammates handle them one by one. Also, the game doesn't send waves of Chaos Warriors (except obviously in patrols); they're noisey, stationary targets until agro'd so it's not like every encounter requires you to stagger them if heat/ammo is a concern. The alternative to solid range crowd control in pub Legend games is some trash-enemy that no one notices smacking people in the back while they're hacking away at Chaos Warriors bringing them to a sliver of green health. And because no pub heals unless they're black and white due to precious ~efficiency~ (despite the game tossing endless amounts of healing at you) a horde comes and they get put down because some pinky smacked them in the back. And/or the game's buggy as gently caress slotting system puts 20 enemies in a single spot resulting in instant guard breaks so someone goes down. When someone goes down that really means you're down 2 people as the person picking them up can't do damage for those precious seconds during a fight so some special or the horde kills the remaining 2.
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May 24, 2018 20:10
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legend routinely spawns ~3 chaos warriors close to each other in wandering patrols and it's very common that the aggro is out of your hands. a horde starting will alert them because the horn activates anything even remotely close to you, and the player has exactly zero input on that. the other thing that is a very different context is that a strength potioned hagbane is more than enough to melt bosses, let alone a stormvermin patrol - none of Sienna's fire ticks can claim a similar amount of damage. stagger is helpful, no question, but sienna's contribution in those situations can be mimicked by any character, regardless of class or equipment, by throwing a bomb. either kind of bomb. the potion is not required in this context. i see what you're saying in terms of it being a potentially helpful niche, my counterpoint is basically that it is so far down the list of tools to accomplish that end that it very rarely comes up as valuable. i also think that stormvermin patrol is a champion one at worst, it seems much too small for legend - which would also double down on how the solution given doesn't really scale. how many SVs can you actually stagger? it only takes a couple without control on them to shred the team.
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May 24, 2018 20:28
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Coolguye posted:i also think that stormvermin patrol is a champion one at worst, it seems much too small for legend - which would also double down on how the solution given doesn't really scale. how many SVs can you actually stagger? it only takes a couple without control on them to shred the team. It's my clip and it was Legend boss.
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May 24, 2018 20:30
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you were very fortunate to survive that stormvermin clipping you with his glaive, then, and doubly fortunate to get such a small patrol. to be clear, i absolutely am not doubting what you say there, it's in keeping with what i know of the game, but this was not a common situation. and even in this context, you kind of humiliate the sienna in the clip -- twice -- by doing what she ostensibly could have/should have been doing, only better than she possibly could have.
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May 24, 2018 20:36
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Coolguye posted:you were very fortunate to survive that stormvermin clipping you with his glaive, then, and doubly fortunate to get such a small patrol. to be clear, i absolutely am not doubting what you say there, it's in keeping with what i know of the game, but this was not a common situation. and even in this context, you kind of humiliate the sienna in the clip -- twice -- by doing what she ostensibly could have/should have been doing, only better than she possibly could have. Oi, this ain't my first rat-fight rodeo. VVV regarding stagger, Fireball Sienna works very similarly. im depressed lol posted:
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May 24, 2018 20:41
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i don't remember saying you were new, and i've seen you posting in this thread for a long time so i tend to presume some credit to you. i'm not sure what in my post made you think otherwise. anyway, i can't help but notice that less than half of that patrol was on fire, which stands to reason since that sienna had kind of a bad angle on the majority of the patrol, that you managed to do just as much stagger even under severe pressure, and that kruber actually killed something like 7-8 storms in the time it took sienna to kill 2. honestly, all i see is that, again, you kind of humiliate sienna by doing what she could do, only better than she possibly could have. this is done from two perspectives with Kruber just erasing the patrol once he has some cover, which is something that sienna can't do in any context. even just the overall speed with which you were able to get your hagbane arrows out there is not possible for her to match with her fireball. the point at hand, once again, isn't that sienna is Literally Broken and Unplayable, it is that sienna's toolset means she's constantly working from a tough place compared to everyone else, taking solace in smaller contributions that come up more rarely.
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May 24, 2018 21:11
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Quite frankly, I tried playing Sienna a while ago and did not care for her at all.... but I got the strong impression the key to playing her was just going Pyromancer and stacking every cooldown thing you could, since her ultimate can one-shot chaos warriors and takes noticeable chunks out of bosses.
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May 24, 2018 21:23
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The changes to handgun damage calculations is one of the best changes, I can one-shot packmasters with a shot to the body now 
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May 24, 2018 21:34
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The actual issue with that clip is that the entire map isn't going to be filled with patrols. Saving one potion for whoever is relevant in slaying a patrol should be a normal strategy everyone employs. However, heavily armored ambients are everywhere in Legend, and seeing that many stormvermin as ambients wouldn't shock me. At which point how much are you going to gamble on always having a strength potion? You only need to take out a patrol once per map at worst. Even then, that many stormvermin is manageable without potions so long as your team is on point. Hell, even the shield vermin can be reliably stunned. People just complain cause it's a pain to hit them so long. They aren't stupidly strong like Rothelms. And if you get as many heavy ambients as a normal chaos patrol, you better hope someone is ready to clutch big time. Shields, maulers, and rothelms suddenly descending upon you and fighting them wasn't a matter of failing to sneak around.
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May 24, 2018 21:38
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Sykic posted:The changes to handgun damage calculations is one of the best changes, I can one-shot packmasters with a shot to the body now I would legitimately like to give my thanks to Sy for this one. He found this out in the most clutch way possible. A packmaster snatched our dwarf and started dragging him in to a (glitched) chaos patrol. This man turns and snap shots the packmaster dead as if this were just Tuesday for Bison. Now if only Sy would play rifle huntsman.  Backhand posted:Quite frankly, I tried playing Sienna a while ago and did not care for her at all.... but I got the strong impression the key to playing her was just going Pyromancer and stacking every cooldown thing you could, since her ultimate can one-shot chaos warriors and takes noticeable chunks out of bosses. Flamestorm with cooldown on crit can achieve some silly things with Pyro, but you'd be shocked at how little use having infinite skulls is.
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May 24, 2018 21:42
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Fuuka Ayase posted:Now if only Sy would play rifle huntsman. Ow, my undeserving arse.
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May 24, 2018 21:53
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Don't you want to see the whole map implode before you even step out of the spawn? DO YOU HATE FUN?
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May 24, 2018 21:56
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTzj1LpoMRc
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May 25, 2018 00:42
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Goddrat that brings me back.
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May 25, 2018 00:50
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Fuuka Ayase posted:The actual issue with that clip is that the entire map isn't going to be filled with patrols. Saving one potion for whoever is relevant in slaying a patrol should be a normal strategy everyone employs. However, heavily armored ambients are everywhere in Legend, and seeing that many stormvermin as ambients wouldn't shock me. At which point how much are you going to gamble on always having a strength potion? You only need to take out a patrol once per map at worst. Even then, that many stormvermin is manageable without potions so long as your team is on point. Hell, even the shield vermin can be reliably stunned. People just complain cause it's a pain to hit them so long. They aren't stupidly strong like Rothelms. Heavily armored ambients are everywhere in Legend. In this clip, the horde horn has just gone off. This clip (from about an hour ago) shows that stagger via lightly charged fireballs and Sir KruBah's charge are more than enough to deal with those ambients even with a teammate down. I pull back slightly to ensure that horde isn't coming from behind and we are fine. https://gfycat.com/DetailedIdenticalIrishdraughthorse Keep in mind this isn't an ideal situation for the technique at all as I was kind of forcing it so I could have quick clip to demonstrate it.
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May 25, 2018 01:14
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Goddamn 2h axe is amazing now and is rightfully taking the place as my favorite weapon for bardin again. So either hunter is broken or it doesn't stack with the rangers 25% power from reloading talent, take your pick.
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May 25, 2018 02:01
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Nice shield icon every time you hit the rot helm. On that note, we need a 'heavy duty' dummy in the keep as currently what you can even reliably do to Rot Helms requires some guess work.
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May 25, 2018 02:06
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Its great because jsat did a video with the damage numbers mod and it appeared to be really random when he was shooting rothelms, i saw his hagbane dot hitting some and not hitting others. You know whats easier than a dummy? an info card literally listing damage vs every target. Verminbuilds is already doing this but it's not ingame where it loving should be so people new to the franchise can ponder these questions then mouse over something and go, oh look there's the information i wanted to see. Don't want to see it? have it optional where you can live in a world of mystery or you can turn advanced details on and know everything you ever wanted to know. We're already loving QA/beta testers give us the goddamn tools we need.
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May 25, 2018 02:20
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Arghy posted:Its great because jsat did a video with the damage numbers mod and it appeared to be really random when he was shooting rothelms, i saw his hagbane dot hitting some and not hitting others. I mean if I was going to start somewhere, I'd probably start with things that just say they 'increase' or 'decrease things'. Like, by how much. Great, Victor's tag increases damage - by how much?
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May 25, 2018 02:21
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Fuuka Ayase posted:Nice shield icon every time you hit the rot helm. The clip was to demonstrate stagger, not how much damage it's doing.
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May 25, 2018 02:30
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If I wanted to only stagger the rothelms, I could do so on bardin and still murder hordes just as fast, or faster, while having an AP melee. While better protected than even Unchained has besides and serving as an actual front line tank. (It's almost like Sienna is bad or something)
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May 25, 2018 02:56
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wait is the hagbane bow actually good now i thought it was garbage
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May 25, 2018 03:00
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It was never bad. It was just massively OP in the beta and got hit pretty hard with a nerf. Typical kneejerking to any nerf happened and declared it unusable.
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May 25, 2018 03:40
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I'll never get those thousands of looks of horror in their eyes out of my head! It was genocide, I tell you! Five miles and a dead rat every step!
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May 25, 2018 03:47
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Into the Nest is a really loving long map with extra hordes.
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May 25, 2018 04:13
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Yeah that was crazy but it's already an insanely long map to begin with (or feels like it anyways) I seriously dont remember Horde Increased Frequency making Hordes insanely hyperdense though. new fatsharky thing? fire grandma is insanely fun when the most you have to deal with are mostly occasional stormvermin/maulers and can just bunnyhop around beanbagging everything proccing heatsink for infinite beanbags with infinite temp health--shame that's not always the case Xaris fucked around with this message at 04:22 on May 25, 2018 |
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May 25, 2018 04:17
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that poo poo is exactly what i was talking about where she shines like crazy though, doesn't she? with a fireball or a firestorm people can just push forward with sienna covering the advance when otherwise you'd be blocked solid by the sheer tonnage of man and man-rat in your way.Fuuka Ayase posted:It was never bad. It was just massively OP in the beta and got hit pretty hard with a nerf. Typical kneejerking to any nerf happened and declared it unusable. not that we could TELL that until very recently because DoTs didn't work on the dummies until then.
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May 25, 2018 04:42
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I used it, though briefly, before the dot was allowed to stack. I quite liked it then, and it's better now. Though yes it's worth clarrifying they fixed the stacking. My bad. Though personally I am such a mean shot with either version of the longbow, I find it hard to justify using anything else. As such things go.
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May 25, 2018 05:09
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Fuuka Ayase posted:If I wanted to only stagger the rothelms, I could do so on bardin and still murder hordes just as fast, or faster, while having an AP melee. While better protected than even Unchained has besides and serving as an actual front line tank. Sienna's perfectly fine if you play to her strengths and hone them. Here's a run I did about an hour ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kovpmgIbyv0 Since you appear to enjoy finding fault in everything, I've already done the hard work for you and have timestamps listed for most of the critical errors/misplays in the video's description. Just because you don't enjoy playing a particular character doesn't mean there aren't ways to really make them shine and not be 'garbage'. And thank you in advance for describing how shotgun/flame Bardin can do everything in this video such as intense ranged horde control and kill specials that are out of line of sight. Meanwhile I'll be playing the game. edgar_ posted:wait is the hagbane bow actually good now i thought it was garbage I've been using Hagbane pretty much since release. It's my favorite bow to use with Waystalker.
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May 25, 2018 05:22
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im depressed lol posted:Sienna's perfectly fine if you play to her strengths and hone them. Here's a run I did about an hour ago: for the love of christ. Coolguye posted:the point at hand, once again, isn't that sienna is Literally Broken and Unplayable, it is that sienna's toolset means she's constantly working from a tough place compared to everyone else, taking solace in smaller contributions that come up more rarely. nobody has said sienna is 'garbage'. you are saying that. the most recent time it was used, period, as near as i can tell from using a thread search is four days ago, when it was said that the mace is garbage (and it is, it's not good at its primary job of AP). the post you're addressing raises a perfectly legitimate point that another character can do the job you're talking about, better, with less risk. and you can find similar comparisons on all other characters. this is the heart and soul of the matter. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 05:55 on May 25, 2018 |
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May 25, 2018 05:50
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