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800peepee51doodoo posted:This is what I'm struggling with. Its really difficult to find solid strategies because everything is situational and you kind of just have to get it. I don't know what "it" is, but I def don't get it right now. The JoINrbs stuff is really good for this. And for me his runs really highlight the difference between how most people (including myself who is not good at this game, and Rhapsody falls in the same category) play, compared to how the people who pretty much only play A15 and go for streaks play. These are the people who will be picking a boring value card, that would be an auto-pass for me, on floor 1, based on what the first boss is, over trying to force a degenerate archetype. I've reevaluated a lot of cards based on his videos, but in general I don't really play like that. Which is probably why I'm not particularly good at the game, but at least I'm having fun. jrm1ah is interesting in this respect because it feels like most of his stuff ends up being these crazy decks where everything just goes according to plan and he has absurdly good luck, but he streaks at A15 so it's not down to luck. Probably just selective with what he posts. His runs can be fun to watch, but I don't think they're particularly educational.
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May 24, 2018 21:41
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Ultima66 posted:There was one run that really pissed me off where he had an incredible starting Pandora's Box that gave 3 Scrapes, and then died late on floor 3 because he just absolutely refused to take any Leap/Auto Shields/Reinforced Body/Glacier/etc because they didn't cost 0 or synergize with a 0 cost deck. And he skipped like 3 Steam Barriers as well because "I only play thin decks and Steam Barrier is absolute crap in a thin deck," which isn't even true. That's pretty asinine, especially since it's been my experience with A15 Defect that you get the All for One combo up to 150 damage in a turn or whatever, and you end up taking 25 damage in every other Act 3 fight anyways because that's still not enough to end it quickly and you can't block 40+ damage with Defends and Leaps. If anything, the AFO deck needs stuff like Reinforced Body a lot more than any other Defect deck, because you can't count on Frost Orbs to keep you going. The only time where I got AFO near-infinite enough to get away with basically ignoring block was when I stumbled into having two upgraded Breath of Airs (0-cost, reshuffle your deck, draw 2) and Sun Dial (+2 Energy every 3rd time you reshuffle).
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May 24, 2018 22:51
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FWIW I had a very smooth time of clearing up to A15 with Defect (and kind of stopped playing because I accomplished my goals of getting A15 with every class in this game). I found that Defect kind of lets you do anything you want, because with the starting Cracked Core you never get caught in the loop of "I have to spend all my mana defending every turn I can't hurt the enemies and eventually get overwhelmed/unlucky." Leap, Steam Barrier, Reinforced Body, and Glacier are all fantastic to take for anything I'm doing, and the only deck I've never really done is a deck focusing on sitting on Dark orbs. That's mainly because I always end up taking Glacier and always upgrade Zap as a first priority though, so I end up churning orbs too much. I think as far as defending yourself on high ascensions, Ironclad tends to fall into either going deep on Exhaust or needing Barricade, and then your win condition always ends up being Body Slam. Silent's actual defensive cards don't generate a ton of block so you need to find something other than strong block cards to defend yourself (obviously Dex is the big one, but also Weakness and 0 cost spamming with After Image). Defect I think has the strongest generic block cards that you can use to carry any deck, which means it's not really restricted on what kind of win conditions you decide to go for. Hell, a lot of the high ascension runs I won didn't have "archetypes" until very late, winning fights by just having an upgraded Ball Lightning and upgraded Axe Kick to do massive damage for cheap.
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May 24, 2018 23:10
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Well they took out Axe Kick so now you need a new strategy. 
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May 24, 2018 23:22
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SynthesisAlpha posted:The main advice that's been given in the thread is pretty solid. Don't aim for a specific archetype unless it falls in your lap. Each class has certain high value cards that can fit in any deck, some are one-ofs and some are grab every copy you can. Like I said, everything is situational. You might skip a card when it shows up in act 1, but grab it when it appears again 4 fights later because your deck dynamic has changed. You can't just build for the act 3 boss, you have to win every fight up to that point, and win SOUNDLY. Resting at campfires means you better have just killed an elite because otherwise you wasted a card upgrade. Yeah, I've been following this kind of advice for a while and it really helped me wrap my head around the basic game. I can win pretty consistently there, its just when it starts to ramp up in Ascension that my normal strategies and plays seem to fall apart. Gravy Jones posted:The JoINrbs stuff is really good for this. And for me his runs really highlight the difference between how most people (including myself who is not good at this game, and Rhapsody falls in the same category) play, compared to how the people who pretty much only play A15 and go for streaks play. These are the people who will be picking a boring value card, that would be an auto-pass for me, on floor 1, based on what the first boss is, over trying to force a degenerate archetype. I've reevaluated a lot of cards based on his videos, but in general I don't really play like that. Which is probably why I'm not particularly good at the game, but at least I'm having fun. I'll be watching more of his videos for sure and see if I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. It's really weird how a game I'm this bad at keeps its hooks in me, though. Its super fun even when I'm getting my teeth kicked in.
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May 25, 2018 00:16
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Llamadeus posted:You might also be underprioritising act 1 elites relative to rest sites since some of these runs have zero elites in the first act. It's worth picking your first few cards entirely for fighting act 1 elites since the rewards generally outweigh the upgrades you have to pass up by resting. From a few pages back, but this ended up being very good advice for me. I had been greatly undervaluing elites and overvaluing campfires for upgrades. Working out pathing at the beginning of each act is pretty vital on high ascension. I mostly just automatically took the path with the most fires every time, but actively considering how good your deck is against each elite, and giving yourself options in the back half of the act to take some optional elites or play it safe if necessary is really important for optimal play. I just beat silent a10 with 10 elite kills, and the relics far outweighed the damage I took.
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May 25, 2018 00:53
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800peepee51doodoo posted:Yeah, I've been following this kind of advice for a while and it really helped me wrap my head around the basic game. I can win pretty consistently there, its just when it starts to ramp up in Ascension that my normal strategies and plays seem to fall apart. Ascension has two consequences for everyone: 1. The game becomes less and less tolerant of mistakes. At normal difficulty, you can make a lot of minor errors here and there and still cruise to the finish. On high ascension, even little errors snowball into game losses an Act later, because you had to rest instead of upgrade which made you take more damage in a later fight and have to rest instead of upgrade etc. 2. Viable archetypes for each class become narrower and narrower. With any class, you can win at normal difficulty with a random pile of good cards. Someone on Reddit has even won playing all 3 classes with the starter cards only. At Asc 15, there's really only 2-4 ways to build your deck in each class that have a good chance of winning. Playing anything else, even perfectly, is likely to fail simply because the cards/combos aren't good enough to cope. A Bag of Milk posted:From a few pages back, but this ended up being very good advice for me. I had been greatly undervaluing elites and overvaluing campfires for upgrades. Working out pathing at the beginning of each act is pretty vital on high ascension. I mostly just automatically took the path with the most fires every time, but actively considering how good your deck is against each elite, and giving yourself options in the back half of the act to take some optional elites or play it safe if necessary is really important for optimal play. I just beat silent a10 with 10 elite kills, and the relics far outweighed the damage I took. It becomes really striking just how much work Relics do if you try to get the 1-relic achievement. I still don't have that or Minimalist. Avasculous fucked around with this message at 01:07 on May 25, 2018 |
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May 25, 2018 01:04
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I heard it phrased perfectly as this: a rare card or a card upgrade only benefits you when you draw it, but most relics benefit you every hand, every fight.
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May 25, 2018 01:38
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Finally beat Asc 10 on Ironclad with a pretty silly exhaust deck: The deck was 100% just stalling with apparitions, stacking block, and hoping dead branch randomed me into something good. I think the deck could really have used a fiend fire, because a couple of times I ran into problems where my entire hand ended up being filled with garbage attacks I couldn't do anything with. Apparition is WAY better than I originally gave it credit for, especially in a slow deck. Trading half my max hp for basically blanking an entire enemy turn worth of damage is absolutely worth it, and I'm going to consider taking it more often.
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May 25, 2018 08:14
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TIL that if an enemy is vulnerable, hovering the targeting icon over the vulnerable enemy will update the card to reflect the new damage value. I've always hosed up the damage calculation on these, so this is an amazing discovery for me.
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May 25, 2018 14:02
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Kaethela posted:TIL that if an enemy is vulnerable, hovering the targeting icon over the vulnerable enemy will update the card to reflect the new damage value. I've always hosed up the damage calculation on these, so this is an amazing discovery for me. The same is true for the Slow modifier on dailies/the Giant Head elites, for the record. The UI for this game is very well done.
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May 25, 2018 14:03
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How do the same people get such high scores in the dailies regularly? Is their a way to do trial runs that don't use up your one scoring run a day? Or are they just that good?
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May 25, 2018 15:05
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If you have multiple accounts, you can play a bunch of practice runs on an alt before doing your scoring run on your main account.
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May 25, 2018 15:07
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I assumed something like that. I wanted to try a couple of builds on this one and it took me half a dozen runs until I could reliably perfect the first act and that was just in terms of elites/boss, never mind going for any other score bonuses. Even with multiple accounts some of the consistent high scores are pretty impressive.
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May 25, 2018 15:20
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Gravy Jones posted:How do the same people get such high scores in the dailies regularly? Is their a way to do trial runs that don't use up your one scoring run a day? Or are they just that good? I see streamers who consistently get top scores who play the daily as soon as it comes out. It's really just being good and also knowing how to play to bonuses. Prioritize elites, and get beyond perfect at all cost, but also be on the lookout for opportunities for high value bonuses like curses! and highlander.
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May 25, 2018 15:23
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Dr. Stab posted:I see streamers who consistently get top scores who play the daily as soon as it comes out. It's really just being good and also knowing how to play to bonuses. Prioritize elites, and get beyond perfect at all cost, but also be on the lookout for opportunities for high value bonuses like curses! and highlander. I mean, people get high scores right when it comes out because nobody else has played it yet. Also there was at least one known exploit where you could load up a saved game from a previous daily, finish the last fight and get credit, don’t know if that got patched, but people were definitely exploiting. It’s just not a priority to fix because it’s just for fun.
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May 25, 2018 17:29
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Marketing New Brain posted:I mean, people get high scores right when it comes out because nobody else has played it yet. Also there was at least one known exploit where you could load up a saved game from a previous daily, finish the last fight and get credit, don’t know if that got patched, but people were definitely exploiting. It’s just not a priority to fix because it’s just for fun. You can't save & quit in dailies, unfortunately - that's probably why.
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May 25, 2018 18:09
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Marketing New Brain posted:I mean, people get high scores right when it comes out because nobody else has played it yet. Also there was at least one known exploit where you could load up a saved game from a previous daily, finish the last fight and get credit, don’t know if that got patched, but people were definitely exploiting. It’s just not a priority to fix because it’s just for fun. I mean scores that are high scores towards the end of the day. It's pretty easy to get a high score by just starting the run right at midnight and failing immediately before anybody else finishes.
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May 25, 2018 23:11
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New character should be released this week, for anybody else like me who doesn't play beta. I have both others at A13, probably I should also stop requiring them to all be at equal levels for sanity once Defect is out. Also today's daily is a lot of fun - Diverse and Big Game Hunter as Silent. I guess I mostly ended up with an Ironclad character that also had Neutralize, but a lot of silent 0-cost attacks helped on the way (Corruption/Barricade into Unceasing Top/Anger).
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May 27, 2018 16:28
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Finally beat A15 with Ironclad, after about a dozen near misses. Easily the most ridiculous deck I've ever had. By the third act the Barricade was p much redundant as killed every thing on the first turn. I have a much bigger appreciation of Enlightenment after a few recent runs. Easy mode out the way, now onto the others.
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May 27, 2018 20:19
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Gravy Jones posted:Finally beat A15 with Ironclad, after about a dozen near misses. Easily the most ridiculous deck I've ever had. By the third act the Barricade was p much redundant as killed every thing on the first turn. I have a much bigger appreciation of Enlightenment after a few recent runs. Enlightenment is the best card that nobody ever talks about. The upgraded form is crazy good
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May 28, 2018 09:26
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Got my A14 Ironclad win with the dumbest set of relics I've ever had. Probably didn't actually matter what cards I cast.
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May 28, 2018 20:44
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Beat the Time Eater despite more or less running a shiv deck. Then got to him again a run or two later and died horribly thanks to dome, despite otherwise having a pretty neat defense/discard deck.
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May 28, 2018 22:04
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Shiv decks are perfectly fine against Time Eater, the problem is just thoughtlessly tossing out shivs without paying attention to card count. And hoping you have decent value-adds like Thousand Cuts/Envenom/After Image/Accuracy or relics like Shuriken or Kunai.
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May 28, 2018 22:37
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im starting to think that beating the first boss should just grant a flat fourth energy and all boss energy relics should be made into tradeoffs or moderately powerful bonuses like the other boss relics
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May 28, 2018 22:40
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Yeah the boss relic RNG is really the only thing where luck can just screw you into a tough run. There's not really an advantageous way to play a 3-energy deck that a 4-energy deck can't do better. The fact that you don't always get cards you want is counteracted by the fact that there are lots of good cards and lots of opportunities to draw; with boss relics you only get two draws (three if you sacrifice your starting relic) and many of them are not great or super situational.
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May 28, 2018 23:01
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Tollymain posted:im starting to think that beating the first boss should just grant a flat fourth energy and all boss energy relics should be made into tradeoffs or moderately powerful bonuses like the other boss relics I think boss relics in general need a pass. In addition to just giving you a 4th energy at the 1st boss, most of the boss relics are worse than most rare relics and even some common relics (I think I would legitimately rather have Vajra's +1 Str than Tiny House). The only one that actually matters that isn't an energy relic is like, the one that gives you a potion every fight, which is still only okay, and Snecko Eye, which is...variable. When I think Boss Relic I think like, Necronomicon or Dead Branch in terms of both power level and how build defining they are.
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May 28, 2018 23:20
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Tollymain posted:im starting to think that beating the first boss should just grant a flat fourth energy and all boss energy relics should be made into tradeoffs or moderately powerful bonuses like the other boss relics This would immediately solve my only major complaint about the game. Getting to that first boss relic pick and having the choices be something like Astrolabe/Orrery/Tiny House is extremely deflating. In a similar vein, please remove the previously mentioned set of relics from the boss pool, tia.
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May 28, 2018 23:20
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For silent, I always end up building loose decks that are large but I can go through the entire thing in one turn finding the 0s, card draw to find the 0s, and +energy cards. Card draw into bullet time = everyone is going to have a bad time. I always take the random boss relic since it gives me options to start out powerful and dictate what cards I should focus on because they will automatically be powerful instead of "I should pick this up because it's generally the best but WHAT IF I get a snecko and I'm casting predator for 0 ?"
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May 28, 2018 23:26
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GrandpaPants posted:The only one that actually matters that isn't an energy relic is like, the one that gives you a potion every fight, which is still only okay... Don't we have empirical evidence that this is, in fact, one of the worst?
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May 28, 2018 23:30
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Glory to Italia!
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Astrolabe is lowkey great. Last time I got backflip, terror, and deadly poison. Such an improvement over 3 basic strikes and proved integral to beating act 2. Act 2 on 3 energy is really tough though. The only boss relic rework that imo really needs to happen is a tiny house bump, even just choosing the upgraded card.
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May 28, 2018 23:31
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This website has data uploaded about runs. This specific page is about boss relics picked and what percentage of runs were won afterward. Obviously the connection there is a little specious but it's not negligible, all of us have had losses that I'm sure we can directly track to a bad boss relic choice. http://spirelogs.com/stats/boss-relics.php To the surprise of no one, most of the non-energy relics that all of us think are bad lead to some of the lowest win-rates if picked after act 1 -- Calling Bell, Runic Pyramid, Tiny House, etc. They suck, we all know they suck, and they can't really contribute to a win condition except in incredibly niche situations. Some of the relics like Runic Pyramid, I can think of very narrow use-cases when they're incredibly good, but that's like one time in a hundred that I see it as a pick. It should be an event relic rather than one of your two boss relic choices. I don't know what the fix is but there needs to be something, because even if you do get a non-energy relic that's decent or even beneficial overall (think of like Pandora's Box, which is definitely a good relic), playing with 3 energy in act 2 fuckin' sucks.
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May 28, 2018 23:32
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GrandpaPants posted:I think boss relics in general need a pass. In addition to just giving you a 4th energy at the 1st boss, most of the boss relics are worse than most rare relics and even some common relics (I think I would legitimately rather have Vajra's +1 Str than Tiny House). The only one that actually matters that isn't an energy relic is like, the one that gives you a potion every fight, which is still only okay, and Snecko Eye, which is...variable. When I think Boss Relic I think like, Necronomicon or Dead Branch in terms of both power level and how build defining they are. Snecko Eye is actually just the strongest relic in the game
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May 29, 2018 00:18
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Inserter is a great example of a boss tier relic done well. I've won on A15 with it on 3 energy and regularly take it over Philosopher's Stone and Ectoplasm. I know they want to keep some duds in there to make exchanging your starter relic for a boss relic a risk, but personally I'd rather that option got removed entirely. The Ironclad only energy relic (Mark of Pain?) is the other well designed one, and I like the defect's no drawback "energy" relic as well. Only playing on high ascension White Beast Statue is straight trash, but it never felt right as a boss relic.
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May 29, 2018 00:18
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Marketing New Brain posted:Inserter is a great example of a boss tier relic done well. I've won on A15 with it on 3 energy and regularly take it over Philosopher's Stone and Ectoplasm. I know they want to keep some duds in there to make exchanging your starter relic for a boss relic a risk, but personally I'd rather that option got removed entirely. The Ironclad only energy relic (Mark of Pain?) is the other well designed one, and I like the defect's no drawback "energy" relic as well. Only playing on high ascension White Beast Statue is straight trash, but it never felt right as a boss relic. Mark of Pain has the lowest winrate of all of the energy relics, and in fact is the worst relic to get out of literally anything from a Neow swap
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May 29, 2018 00:22
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Dud items are a roguelike staple and frankly every boss relic shouldn’t be good because making do with the best of bad picks is part of the experience, but the current boss pool is way too small to justify the really binary split between excellent and garbage
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May 29, 2018 00:32
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Ayn Randi posted:Dud items are a roguelike staple and frankly every boss relic shouldn’t be good because making do with the best of bad picks is part of the experience, but the current boss pool is way too small to justify the really binary split between excellent and garbage Dud items are a roguelike staple but not when you only get two, maybe three of them in the whole game and they're really important. That's more for wet fart common relics like Dreamcatcher or the old Prayer Wheel.
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May 29, 2018 00:38
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ILL Machina posted:Don't we have empirical evidence that this is, in fact, one of the worst? White Beast Statue is probably a bit better now you can get Intangible, Plated Armour, several kinds of heal or a rez out of it.
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May 29, 2018 00:40
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Jedit posted:White Beast Statue is probably a bit better now you can get Intangible, Plated Armour, several kinds of heal or a rez out of it. Pretty sure the data from the website was only aggregated since like the start of May so I believe new potions were always in it and it's still a -19% win rate choice. It's just that even most of the new potions aren't really transformative. Intangible potion absolutely owns but only Silent gets it.
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May 29, 2018 00:41
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Ayn Randi posted:Dud items are a roguelike staple and frankly every boss relic shouldn’t be good because making do with the best of bad picks is part of the experience, but the current boss pool is way too small to justify the really binary split between excellent and garbage Yeah I'm all for highly situational cards/relics. Even if they only shine one in 10 or more runs, that's fine, but a bad boss relic is a tremendous waste, because I'm just not going to pick them. Black Star and Eternal Feather are fine, they might not be all stars, and I think Black Star is quite bad and win more, but at least it isn't actively harmful to the point there's no reason to offer it as a choice. When I think of Roguelike RNG, I think of something like Matryoshka, where sometimes you get it from an elite on floor one and immediately get rewarded with two relics, and other times you get it two steps from the boss. I'm even fine with Tiny House, but the actively bad relics just don't make sense to me.
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May 29, 2018 02:23
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