Whiskey or Whisky? Let's talk about them.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Goons with Spoons > Whiskey or Whisky? Let's talk about them.

Lowness 72: Jul 19, 2006; BUTTS LOL; Jade Ear Joe

You guys seem excited but I've gotta say Tabasco whiskey sounds disgusting. Try putting a few drops of tabasco in your next dram. How can this be good?

# ? May 22, 2018 19:10

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 21:03

Toast Museum: Dec 3, 2005; 30% Iron Chef

Lowness 72 posted:

You guys seem excited but I've gotta say Tabasco whiskey sounds disgusting. Try putting a few drops of tabasco in your next dram. How can this be good?

Honestly, I find the whiskey regulation chat more interesting than the product. I am curious, though, because you're right, it sounds gross, and I'd love to know if it somehow works after all. The liquor store near me only carries 750mL bottles, though, and I'm not $21 curious.

# ? May 22, 2018 19:30

spankmeister: Jun 15, 2008

For me it would just be a fun gimmick to try with some friends.

# ? May 22, 2018 19:36

Weltlich: Feb 13, 2006; Grimey Drawer

Yeah, it really seems like a Fireball/Malort sort of thing where I'm not really enthusiastic about it, but more interested in it as something to inflict on people around me. It just seems like weaponized bad taste - like someone looked at Fireball and said "You know, there are still some redeeming qualities to this. I won't rest until I have the trashiest beverage possible."

Ha, but you see, someone beat them to the punch because this exists already: https://beachwhiskey.com

# ? May 22, 2018 20:39

slothrop: Dec 7, 2006; Santa Alpha, Fox One... Gifts Incoming ~~~>===|>; Soiled Meat

Toast Museum posted:

Honestly, I find the whiskey regulation chat more interesting than the product. I am curious, though, because you're right, it sounds gross, and I'd love to know if it somehow works after all. The liquor store near me only carries 750mL bottles, though, and I'm not $21 curious.

I bet you any money you like if this makes it to Australia it�ll be $65+. And people will still buy it.

# ? May 23, 2018 14:44

Vox Nihili: May 28, 2008

Deceptive Thinker posted:

There are a few local distilleries around here that have some "spirits" that are distilled from finished beers. Because of the hops, they can't call them whiskey

I know the biggest player in that niche, Charbay, labels their products as "Hop Flavored Whiskey." They distill Racer 5 IPA directly into whiskey.

# ? May 23, 2018 21:21

Vox Nihili: May 28, 2008

Weltlich posted:

Generally speaking, I think most distillers are with you on that. Prior to labeling laws, lots of spirits were adulterated with all sorts of awful stuff. But, though the Compass Box situation is also why we would rather just have some sort of "honesty in labeling" regulations - because even with the restrictive labeling regs that exist, there's plenty of ways to game the system. Adulteration is one thing, but there's a big patch of ground between that and "Here's what is in this bottle, honest and for true."

For example, if you make a mash with 51% corn, 49% whatever else, distill it, then run it through a wooden pipe that's been newly charred inside, straight to a bottling machine, you can legally call that "Bourbon." It can't be straight bourbon because it didn't spend two years, but the mere act of sliding across some new-char oak legally transformed it from moonshine or "grain spirit" to both bourbon and whiskey.

On the other hand it has kept "light whiskey" from being a commercially viable category. By using previously used barrels (like scotch or Irish whiskey) a distiller can really fine tune the flavor of a finished product. They can use wine barrels, beer barrels, barrels that had other spirits in them - and in the end get a really fabulous product. But, if they do then they're saddled with the designation of "light whiskey," and most consumers don't even know what that is. It's an archaic category that was made up to let American producers make a whiskey that could compete with cheap scotch and Irish whiskey back in the middle of last century. But to a modern consumer, it sounds suspiciously close to "light beer" which is marketing poison. There's a lot of distillers who'd like to experiment with making "light whiskey" but don't just because they don't want to the battle of having to fight misconceptions.

**edit** I mixed up the timeframes between "straight" whiskey and whiskey "bottled in bond." Straight whiskey only needs to spend two years on new char oak. Bottled in bond needs to spend four years, be bottled at 100 proof, and be taken from the distillate of "one season". The "Bottled in Bond" act is important because it was the first true whiskey regulation in the US, and was passed as a direct response to people putting things like isopropyl alcohol, mineral spirits, and all manner of other horrible stuff into whiskey before shipping it west on the newly built transcontinental railroad. Because if some rube got sick in Denver, who cares?

You can age a bourbon mash in used barrels and call it Corn Whiskey/Straight Corn Whiskey. That's what Mellow Corn is, for example.

# ? May 23, 2018 21:25

wormil: Sep 12, 2002; Hulk will smoke you!

ABC store got in OGD 114 for $30. I was on a margarita mission though so I didn't buy any. Is it worth the $30 or is it just a stronger proof OGD?

# ? May 24, 2018 01:02

Enigma: Jun 10, 2003; Raetus Deus Est.

Don�t underestimate �just a stronger proof� if it�s something you drink neat. I�ve gotten used to 100+, and can often tell if something is <=90. If I�m not mistaken, the regular OGD is 80-proof.

I like 114, and at $30 it�s a good value, imo. I wish I could find the bottled in bond to compare, though.

# ? May 24, 2018 01:11

Lowness 72: Jul 19, 2006; BUTTS LOL; Jade Ear Joe

Re: hop flavored whiskeys. There's a craft distillery in Maine that's been around long enough now to actually have aged product. They distilled an Allagash Saison and aged it for 2 years. Turned out pretty decent.

# ? May 24, 2018 02:09

wormil: Sep 12, 2002; Hulk will smoke you!

Enigma posted:

Don�t underestimate �just a stronger proof� if it�s something you drink neat. I�ve gotten used to 100+, and can often tell if something is <=90. If I�m not mistaken, the regular OGD is 80-proof.

I like 114, and at $30 it�s a good value, imo. I wish I could find the bottled in bond to compare, though.

OGD BIB is 100 proof, it's one of my favorite bourbons. There is an 80 proof version that I may have had once and thought it was too young. I've had high proof bourbon, including Woodford right out of the barrel. But I've read that OGD114 is the same as OGD100 just with more alcohol.

# ? May 24, 2018 05:29

Stultus Maximus: Dec 21, 2009; USPOL May

wormil posted:

OGD BIB is 100 proof, it's one of my favorite bourbons. There is an 80 proof version that I may have had once and thought it was too young. I've had high proof bourbon, including Woodford right out of the barrel. But I've read that OGD114 is the same as OGD100 just with more alcohol.

I think 114 is definitely worth the premium over BiB.

# ? May 24, 2018 11:40

Weltlich: Feb 13, 2006; Grimey Drawer

Vox Nihili posted:

You can age a bourbon mash in used barrels and call it Corn Whiskey/Straight Corn Whiskey. That's what Mellow Corn is, for example.

In some cases, yes - but not always. Bourbon must be 51%+ corn mash, Corn Whiskey must be 80%+ corn mash. So a corn whiskey will always be from a bourbon mash, but a bourbon mash might not qualify for corn whiskey.

And Corn Whiskey is sort of the odd-man-out on the "grain name" whiskeys. All of the others (Rye, Wheat, Barley, Bourbon) are new-char. Corn whiskey was designated it's own category for a similar reason to "light whiskey" - before Scotland started buying up all our used barrels, bourbon makers had nothing to do with used barrels. And since barrels are expensive and you don't just want to toss them out or sell them to old ladies to make porch planters out of, someone lobbied to get "corn whiskey" as a category, specifically to have a use for second fill barrels. But that never took off, and other than Mellow Corn, I'm hard pressed to name a popular Corn Whiskey brand that pre-dates the Moonshine fad we're seeing now. Unfortunately, the category is still largely seen as an "inferior" product, when it needn't be so.

Lowness 72 posted:

Re: hop flavored whiskeys. There's a craft distillery in Maine that's been around long enough now to actually have aged product. They distilled an Allagash Saison and aged it for 2 years. Turned out pretty decent.

What are they calling it? I know a few places tried calling stuff like that Bier-schnapps, which is an actual type of spirit in Germany/Austria/Central Europe but they got shot down by the TTB at the time. Did this place have any luck getting it into either Whiskey or Bier-schnapps lables?

# ? May 24, 2018 18:29

wormil: Sep 12, 2002; Hulk will smoke you!

I checked the county ABC inventory, these are the corn whiskeys they sell. Pretty sure I had the Georgia Moon and it was gross. They are really pushing local distilleries but disappointingly, all the NC products I've tried taste like rear end. (Carriage Apple Brandy being the exception, love that stuff) Sadly no Mellow Corn. I could request it if I were willing to buy a case.
https://abc.nc.gov/Pricing/PriceList

code:

Name, proof, size, price

NC Products:
Walton's Corn Whiskey 80  .75L  $25.95

Georgia Moon Apple Pie Fruit Jar 70  .75L  $13.50
Georgia Moon Peach  100  .75L  $13.50
Georgia Moon 100 .75L $13.50 

Sugarlands Shine Legend Jim Tom 100 .75L$24.95
Sugarlands Shine Rye Apple 80 .75L$24.95
Tim Smith's Climax Moonshine 90 .75L$29.95
Tim Smith's Climax Wood Fired Wh... 90 .75L$29.95

# ? May 24, 2018 19:44

Vox Nihili: May 28, 2008

Balcones makes a corn whiskey that is reportedly OK. Other than that and Mellow Corn, every other corn whiskey I've read about has been uniformly panned (mostly underaged garbage).

# ? May 24, 2018 22:16

Weltlich: Feb 13, 2006; Grimey Drawer

Vox Nihili posted:

Balcones makes a corn whiskey that is reportedly OK. Other than that and Mellow Corn, every other corn whiskey I've read about has been uniformly panned (mostly underaged garbage).

Yeah

That said, the Corn Whiskey that Berkshire Mountain Distillery in MA made a few years ago wasn't bad. It was some better than Mellow Corn, but I don't know if it was good enough to justify paying the price difference. Maybe I'll look into making some and loading it into my used rum barrels once they get emptied, and see how long it takes to come up with a good corn whiskey.

# ? May 24, 2018 23:14

Vox Nihili: May 28, 2008

Weltlich posted:

Yeah

That said, the Corn Whiskey that Berkshire Mountain Distillery in MA made a few years ago wasn't bad. It was some better than Mellow Corn, but I don't know if it was good enough to justify paying the price difference. Maybe I'll look into making some and loading it into my used rum barrels once they get emptied, and see how long it takes to come up with a goo corn whiskey.

Yeah the ~$50 craft whiskey price point is pretty painful.

Also, you have barrels of rum just sitting around?? And a functional still???

# ? May 25, 2018 00:09

Weltlich: Feb 13, 2006; Grimey Drawer

Vox Nihili posted:

Yeah the ~$50 craft whiskey price point is pretty painful.

Also, you have barrels of rum just sitting around?? And a functional still???

Yup.

# ? May 25, 2018 01:48

Nth Doctor: Sep 7, 2010; Darkrai used Dream Eater!
It's super effective!

Vox Nihili posted:

Also, you have barrels of rum just sitting around?? And a functional still???

Weltlich posted:

Yup.

Come join us in Weltlich's A/T thread. It's cool stuff.

# ? May 25, 2018 03:24

spankmeister: Jun 15, 2008

Weltlich posted:

Generally speaking, I think most distillers are with you on that. Prior to labeling laws, lots of spirits were adulterated with all sorts of awful stuff. But, though the Compass Box situation is also why we would rather just have some sort of "honesty in labeling" regulations - because even with the restrictive labeling regs that exist, there's plenty of ways to game the system. Adulteration is one thing, but there's a big patch of ground between that and "Here's what is in this bottle, honest and for true."

For example, if you make a mash with 51% corn, 49% whatever else, distill it, then run it through a wooden pipe that's been newly charred inside, straight to a bottling machine, you can legally call that "Bourbon." It can't be straight bourbon because it didn't spend two years, but the mere act of sliding across some new-char oak legally transformed it from moonshine or "grain spirit" to both bourbon and whiskey.

On the other hand it has kept "light whiskey" from being a commercially viable category. By using previously used barrels (like scotch or Irish whiskey) a distiller can really fine tune the flavor of a finished product. They can use wine barrels, beer barrels, barrels that had other spirits in them - and in the end get a really fabulous product. But, if they do then they're saddled with the designation of "light whiskey," and most consumers don't even know what that is. It's an archaic category that was made up to let American producers make a whiskey that could compete with cheap scotch and Irish whiskey back in the middle of last century. But to a modern consumer, it sounds suspiciously close to "light beer" which is marketing poison. There's a lot of distillers who'd like to experiment with making "light whiskey" but don't just because they don't want to the battle of having to fight misconceptions.

**edit** I mixed up the timeframes between "straight" whiskey and whiskey "bottled in bond." Straight whiskey only needs to spend two years on new char oak. Bottled in bond needs to spend four years, be bottled at 100 proof, and be taken from the distillate of "one season". The "Bottled in Bond" act is important because it was the first true whiskey regulation in the US, and was passed as a direct response to people putting things like isopropyl alcohol, mineral spirits, and all manner of other horrible stuff into whiskey before shipping it west on the newly built transcontinental railroad. Because if some rube got sick in Denver, who cares?

It's cool to have some thoughts on this by an actual industry person, thanks.

# ? May 25, 2018 07:11

Lowness 72: Jul 19, 2006; BUTTS LOL; Jade Ear Joe

Weltlich posted:

What are they calling it? I know a few places tried calling stuff like that Bier-schnapps, which is an actual type of spirit in Germany/Austria/Central Europe but they got shot down by the TTB at the time. Did this place have any luck getting it into either Whiskey or Bier-schnapps lables?

Rack IV Saison

Spirit distilled from grain and cane sugar, flavored with hops and finished in oak barrels

41.5% abv

On the back:
This spirit is distilled from Saison brewed by Allagash Brewing Company

New England Distilling is the company.

It very much tastes like and looks like a whiskey, but they aren't calling it that.

# ? May 27, 2018 16:31

Alarbus: Mar 31, 2010

New England Distilling is around the corner in the industrial park from Allagash, and is run by a former Allagash brewer. When I visited there they were just doing clear spirits, since they had just started, and were using a direct fire, hand hammered copper still from I believe Peru.

Every other distillery I visit gives a horrified look when hearing about a direct fire still being used commercially.

# ? May 27, 2018 16:46

slothrop: Dec 7, 2006; Santa Alpha, Fox One... Gifts Incoming ~~~>===|>; Soiled Meat

What�s the issue (real or imagined) with direct fire?

I just scored a job where I�ll be doing wholesale sales, representing a few different distilleries (mainly single malt scotch).

I grabbed the latest edition of Michael Jackson�s Whisky from the local bookstore because I had a voucher. Does anyone have any other whisky industry resources they recommend? I�m trying to broaden my knowledge of the industry and processes as a whole rather than the history or specific distilleries.

# ? May 28, 2018 06:32

Alarbus: Mar 31, 2010

Alcohol is flammable, particularly when it's gaseous. A bad weld could functionally become a flame thrower, I believe.

Also, there's a lot of waste heat and other things can catch fire or melt.

# ? May 28, 2018 14:47

Nth Doctor: Sep 7, 2010; Darkrai used Dream Eater!
It's super effective!

Also by going with a steam jacket, I'd presume you've got a known upper temperature limit and may not need to worry so much about hot spots. If you've got superheated steam, you likely did it intentionally.

# ? May 28, 2018 15:06

Weltlich: Feb 13, 2006; Grimey Drawer

slothrop posted:

What�s the issue (real or imagined) with direct fire?

I just scored a job where I�ll be doing wholesale sales, representing a few different distilleries (mainly single malt scotch).

I grabbed the latest edition of Michael Jackson�s Whisky from the local bookstore because I had a voucher. Does anyone have any other whisky industry resources they recommend? I�m trying to broaden my knowledge of the industry and processes as a whole rather than the history or specific distilleries.

Whiskeycast is an excellent whiskey industry related podcast. It's split pretty evenly between reviews of new releases and industry-insider pieces (who's merging with or buying who, industry trends, interviews with distillers and owners, etc). It can be a little dry, but if you're seriously interested in the industry then it's amazing. It's also very international, covering American, Scottish, Japanese and other whiskies.

ADI is distilling in general, but their monthly publications have some good industry related articles. I'd ignore their forums, though. Unless you're an actual distiller they're pretty uninformative other than finding out who is running low on bottles and desperately trying to drug-deal their way into buying some more off of a neighboring distillery.

And as far as the direct fire thing, add me to the :stonk:

list. I know a couple of other distillers who do direct fire, but almost all are exclusively brandy makers. With whiskey (or grain based), the chance of scorching a batch sky-rockets with direct fire because particulates settle to the bottom unless you've got a good agitator or rummager. And once a direct fire gets too hot, it's tough to get it cooled back down again - especially if they're going super rustic and using a wood or coal fire. And the fire risk is a real thing unless the distillery is super well ventilated: http://www.dailyfreeman.com/article/DF/20120925/NEWS/309259986

Weltlich fucked around with this message at 17:27 on May 28, 2018

# ? May 28, 2018 17:19

spankmeister: Jun 15, 2008

slothrop posted:

What’s the issue (real or imagined) with direct fire?

I just scored a job where I’ll be doing wholesale sales, representing a few different distilleries (mainly single malt scotch).

I grabbed the latest edition of Michael Jackson’s Whisky from the local bookstore because I had a voucher. Does anyone have any other whisky industry resources they recommend? I’m trying to broaden my knowledge of the industry and processes as a whole rather than the history or specific distilleries.

FYI Michael Jackson has been dead for over 10 years, did other writers pick it up?

# ? May 28, 2018 17:26

Alarbus: Mar 31, 2010

Weltlich posted:

And as far as the direct fire thing, add me to the list. I know a couple of other distillers who do direct fire, but almost all are exclusively brandy makers. With whiskey (or grain based), the chance of scorching a batch sky-rockets with direct fire because particulates settle to the bottom unless you've got a good agitator or rummager. And once a direct fire gets too hot, it's tough to get it cooled back down again - especially if they're going super rustic and using a wood or coal fire. And the fire risk is a real thing unless the distillery is super well ventilated: http://www.dailyfreeman.com/article/DF/20120925/NEWS/309259986

They were using propane, and opened the bay door, but yeah. It's also been about 6 years since I was there, and he said he did plan on going to jacketed, but it was a lead time and cost problem when starting out.

# ? May 29, 2018 00:29

slothrop: Dec 7, 2006; Santa Alpha, Fox One... Gifts Incoming ~~~>===|>; Soiled Meat

spankmeister posted:

FYI Michael Jackson has been dead for over 10 years, did other writers pick it up?

Yeah, I�m out and about at the moment so I can�t tell you who sorry.

Thanks for the recommendations, I�ll be sure to check em out.

# ? May 29, 2018 12:42

Toast Museum: Dec 3, 2005; 30% Iron Chef

I've got a friend who's pretty into hot sauce and was curious enough to split a bottle of that Tabasco barrel Dickel from the last page. $10 was the right amount to spend on satisfying my curiosity. There's more sweetness than heat to it, and I got little to nothing in the way of identifiable pepper notes. Not very pleasant neat, and I don't know what it would do for a cocktail that Ancho Reyes wouldn't do better.

# ? May 29, 2018 14:26

spankmeister: Jun 15, 2008

Toast Museum posted:

I've got a friend who's pretty into hot sauce and was curious enough to split a bottle of that Tabasco barrel Dickel from the last page. $10 was the right amount to spend on satisfying my curiosity. There's more sweetness than heat to it, and I got little to nothing in the way of identifiable pepper notes. Not very pleasant neat, and I don't know what it would do for a cocktail that Ancho Reyes wouldn't do better.

Thank you for doing the needful.

# ? May 29, 2018 14:44

biglads: Feb 21, 2007; I could've gone to Blatherwycke

The Malt Whisky yearbook is a good resource. Jim Murray's Whisky Bible is another book that comes out yearly but is trash imo.

Whatever Jim says he likes ends up going up in price. A few years ago it seemed all of his faves came from distilleries owned by LVMH.
His choice of the Yamazaki Sherry Cask as his favourite a year or 2 back was another reason that prices of Japanese whisky have gone through the roof. Bizarrely he didn't rate any of the previous releases.

# ? May 29, 2018 19:25

slothrop: Dec 7, 2006; Santa Alpha, Fox One... Gifts Incoming ~~~>===|>; Soiled Meat

Yeah I�ve heard enough dumb and grotty poo poo about Jim Murray from industry people over the last few years to just ignore anything with his name on it.

# ? May 30, 2018 08:34

zmcnulty: Jul 26, 2003

Speaking of which! I made this infographic about Japanese whisky. Feel free to share wherever you like.

zmcnulty fucked around with this message at 14:54 on May 30, 2018

# ? May 30, 2018 14:52

Weltlich: Feb 13, 2006; Grimey Drawer

zmcnulty posted:

Speaking of which! I made this infographic about Japanese whisky. Feel free to share wherever you like.

That's pretty slick!

# ? May 31, 2018 01:14

Lowness 72: Jul 19, 2006; BUTTS LOL; Jade Ear Joe

Does France have a thing specifically for Japanese whiskey? Or are they just buyers of whiskey in general?

# ? May 31, 2018 05:14

zmcnulty: Jul 26, 2003

This doesn't answer your question directly, but based on the dataset I used to make that graphic, France has been in the top 3 every year in the data (2011-2018) and #1 since 2015. Their volume has gone from 231kL in 2011 to 1470kL in 2017, so roughly 6.3x. In March of this year alone they imported 257kL, more than the entirety of 2011.

I couldn't tell you how that compares to France's whisky imports in general though, my data is strictly from the Japan side. Worth pointing out that the data comes from customs, i.e. it's purely the destination country of a particular shipment. Doesn't mean the whisky actually stays in that country and gets consumed there.

# ? May 31, 2018 06:17

TobinHatesYou: Aug 14, 2007; wacky cycling inflatable
tube man

That could be it. Pernod-Ricard and LVMH are both based in France and might be handling imports for certain Japanese whisky labels.

# ? May 31, 2018 07:00

spankmeister: Jun 15, 2008

France isn't only the biggest market for Japanese whisky but for the whisky market in general iirc. At least in Europe.

# ? May 31, 2018 07:01

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 21:03

biglads: Feb 21, 2007; I could've gone to Blatherwycke

TobinHatesYou posted:

That could be it. Pernod-Ricard and LVMH are both based in France and might be handling imports for certain Japanese whisky labels.

A lot of the Japanese whisky (particularly Nikka brands) I was buying in the UK a few years ago seem to have first been imported by Le Maison du Whisky.

# ? May 31, 2018 07:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Goons with Spoons > Whiskey or Whisky? Let's talk about them.

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