|
Jedit posted:He also omitted A Voice in the Wilderness - without which the Great Machine appears out of nowhere at the end of S2 - and Born to the Purple, removing all emotional charge from Londo's heel-face-heel 360 in S3. You forgot TKO. More seriously, Infection, as bad as it is, does introduce the concept of organic technology. And Soul Hunter is more important to watch than Deathwalker.
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 07:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 22:40 |
|
|
bartolimu posted:More seriously, Infection, as bad as it is, does introduce the concept of organic technology. And Soul Hunter is more important to watch than Deathwalker. I'm pretty sure Infection doesn't introduce organic technology; the Vorlons have it, and I think we're told as much in the pilot.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 09:24
|
|
|
Infection introduces the idea that a sufficiently advanced enemy with organic technology and overwhelming firepower can be defeated by out-thinking it.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 09:35
|
|
|
Milky Moor posted:Infection introduces the idea that a sufficiently advanced enemy with organic technology and overwhelming firepower can be defeated by out-thinking it. Infection introduces the idea that you have no business thinking of yourself as a galactic conqueror if your species' crowning achievements are xenophobia to the point of self-genocide and making your mightiest warrior's head look like a penis.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 11:41
|
|
|
I liked Infection... I'll take it any day over a self-righteous Franklin story
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 11:59
|
|
Jedit posted:that you have no business thinking of yourself as a galactic conqueror if your species' crowning achievements are xenophobia to the point of self-genocide and making your mightiest warrior's head look like a penis. Disagree entirely.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 12:06
|
|
|
^^^ Your head already looked like a penis, you don't get to claim credit.hope and vaseline posted:I liked Infection... I'll take it any day over a self-righteous Franklin story Oh, yeah, I'll watch Infection over Believers any day of the week. For a first produced episode it's not terrible at all. But it's still not good.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 12:07
|
|
|
What are you people talking about? Believers is good, partly because the ending throws the consequences of Franklin's self-righteousness back in his face.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 12:56
|
|
|
Infection strongly hints about the organic tech being borrowed shadow tech. It’s not necessary though because they cover it later as well. I used to recommend people skip around but I no longer do so. Sure some aren’t great in S1 but they’re really not that bad. I now just tell people that S1 is off and on but get through that and you’re good.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 13:01
|
|
|
Jedit posted:I'm pretty sure Infection doesn't introduce organic technology; the Vorlons have it, and I think we're told as much in the pilot. Wait, we're arguing which episodes to skip and now you're saying watch The Gathering??
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 13:40
|
|
|
^^^ If you don't watch it, you miss a heck of a lot of setup for things that pay off later. It introduces Lyta Alexander, hints at the reason why Sinclair was made commander of B5 at the insistence of the Minbari, reveals the Narn lack of telepaths, and there's even a very subtle clue towards the longstanding alliance between the Minbari and the Vorlons (and possibly also to Sinclair's ultimate fate).AFancyQuestionMark posted:What are you people talking about? Believers is good, partly because the ending throws the consequences of Franklin's self-righteousness back in his face. The problem is that while Franklin is being self-righteous and a bit arrogant, he's also indisputably right. The beliefs of the parents are insane and would almost have to be fringe fanaticism even by the standards of their own people - I know they're meant to be Space Jehovah's Witnesses, but as worded they'd have to be killing themselves any time they took more than a surface cut - and Sinclair's decision to uphold a brainwashed child's choice not to have surgery is absurd. That the parents act as real religious lunatics would instead of "seeing the error of their ways" is laudable, but it shouldn't have got to that point. And you know that if Franklin had let the boy die knowing he could easily save him it would have hurt him as much or even more than what eventually happened. Ultimately Franklin ends up being punished for other people's mistakes, not for his own. Jedit fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Jun 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 14:07
|
|
|
You can't force surgery on an unwilling patient. Both the parents and the kid had made it clear they understood the surgery, understood the consequences of refusing surgery, and were still unwilling to proceed. It's a massive violation of medical ethics that should have seen Franklin lose his position.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 14:53
|
|
|
Angry Salami posted:You can't force surgery on an unwilling patient. Both the parents and the kid had made it clear they understood the surgery, understood the consequences of refusing surgery, and were still unwilling to proceed. It's a massive violation of medical ethics that should have seen Franklin lose his position. I agree, but I think you could argue it's kinda handwaved by the whole "good work dumbass, they killed their kid because of what you did" fallout. Not a whole lot you can do to punish someone worse than that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 14:57
|
|
|
I'm still amused by the father threatening Franklin with a tiny little knife as he and his family backed out of medlab. That was a nice touch.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 15:54
|
|
|
Bieeanshee posted:I'm still amused by the father threatening Franklin with a tiny little knife as he and his family backed out of medlab. That was a nice touch. All you need in their culture - just cut your opponent and they have to kill themselves.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 16:25
|
|
|
Angry Salami posted:You can't force surgery on an unwilling patient. Both the parents and the kid had made it clear they understood the surgery, understood the consequences of refusing surgery, and were still unwilling to proceed. It's a massive violation of medical ethics that should have seen Franklin lose his position. Another reason B5 isn't Star Trek: B5 fans understand that children can't consent.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 16:38
|
|
|
Jedit posted:Another reason B5 isn't Star Trek: B5 fans understand that children can't consent. That is a deep soul-releasing cut right there  .
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 17:06
|
|
|
Jedit posted:^^^ If you don't watch it, you miss a heck of a lot of setup for things that pay off later. It introduces Lyta Alexander, hints at the reason why Sinclair was made commander of B5 at the insistence of the Minbari, reveals the Narn lack of telepaths, and there's even a very subtle clue towards the longstanding alliance between the Minbari and the Vorlons (and possibly also to Sinclair's ultimate fate). I don't think "you get more clues" is really a good enough reason to make a newcomer slog through the pilot, since a lot of those get brought up later anyway; the Narn telepath thing gets brought up in Legacies, the insistence on Sinclair being made commander gets brought up in (I think) And The Sky Full Of Stars, and the audience doesn't need to know Lyta Alexander for her later re-introduction to work.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 17:46
|
|
|
For me, the pilot is something fun to come back to and play 'spot the foreshadowing' with.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 18:15
|
|
|
Bieeanshee posted:For me, the pilot is something fun to come back to and play 'spot the foreshadowing' with. Why would you willingly watch The Gathering more than once? Can you not tell that the stove is hot by the burns on your fingers from last time? 
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 18:17
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I don't think "you get more clues" is really a good enough reason to make a newcomer slog through the pilot, since a lot of those get brought up later anyway; the Narn telepath thing gets brought up in Legacies, the insistence on Sinclair being made commander gets brought up in (I think) And The Sky Full Of Stars, and the audience doesn't need to know Lyta Alexander for her later re-introduction to work. Definitely. Sinclair even recounts his Battle of the Line experience almost identically. All the other stuff is okay backstory, but I actually think it does more harm than good. Spending time describing the crystalline structure of Vorlons and having Kosh hooked up to a life support machine makes them seem like a much more conventional species than how they're portrayed in the series. I remember being very mildly confused by the "There is a hole in your mind" flashback in S1, but once I saw The Gathering and realized that's where it was from, I didn't feel like it had been worth the 90 minutes of my life to know that. I didn't actually learn anything the series hadn't already given me. You can definitely skip The Gathering with no problems whatsoever, unless your aim is to catch every single bit of foreshadowing and hinting. In which case, you should watch every single episode just to be sure.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 18:36
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:Why would you willingly watch The Gathering more than once? Can you not tell that the stove is hot by the burns on your fingers from last time? There is a certain amount of fun in looking at shonky pilot episodes of things and being amazed that the series you grew to love started out in that state, and what it would have been like if they hadn't changed all those things. The B5 pilot has all sorts of things going on. The inexplicable bad disco lighting in the floor of C&C. The nice effect they had of docking ships' lights washing over everyone. The electric guitars. The total lack of starfuries. Vorlons turning the dial up straight to 11 and being prepared to massacre a quarter-million people because their extradition request didn't go their way. Sinclair having a slightly weird posture. The strange acting/directing/casting choices. The CGI being at it's rawest level. Morden working in C&C. The station's maneuvering thrusters having the space equivalent of cellophane wrapping on them.   Wow, I just noticed the bolts separating from the cover. One the one hand, nice touch. On the other, a texture would have been nice. Dirty fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jun 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 18:51
|
|
|
What Dirty said, essentially.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 19:38
|
|
|
I have access to The Gathering but it sits there, unbidden. Unwatched. I like this arrangement.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 20:15
|
|
|
Airspace posted:I have access to The Gathering but it sits there, unbidden. Unwatched. Good man.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2018 21:08
|
|
|
My favorite part of The Gathering is that the bartender is some dude in a gorilla costume. Sadly the Gorillites never showed up in later episodes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2018 01:06
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:Why would you willingly watch The Gathering more than once? Can you not tell that the stove is hot by the burns on your fingers from last time? I forget how many times I've watched it. Three, maybe? Maybe four. Possibly five, now that I actually think about it. Spread over maybe twelve years, mind. I think it's fine, and interesting to look at and think about what the initial plans were, what they were trying to accomplish, etc. To me, it's part of the show, the beginning of a story that has a rough start. I make a habit of not skipping entries in a series, and starting at the start, so it always seems like the appropriate place to begin if I'm watching the show for myself. It's not what I'd recommend for making a first impression, introducing the show to someone.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2018 21:36
|
|
|
Vavrek posted:I forget how many times I've watched it. Three, maybe? Maybe four. Possibly five, now that I actually think about it. Spread over maybe twelve years, mind. Its a good comparison to the first season and pilot of Star Trek TNG. The show that it became was almost completely different in every aspect, from pacing, aesthetics, direction, etc. It's like telling people to skip most of that first season of TNG. Sure there's the terrible polywater episode, the Ferengi are pretty bad, there's the borderline racist episode with the planet of Africans, but then you had some fantastic episodes that showed just how good TNG would become.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2018 20:55
|
|
|
pentyne posted:Its a good comparison to the first season and pilot of Star Trek TNG. The show that it became was almost completely different in every aspect, from pacing, aesthetics, direction, etc. That’s a good analogy. The very beginning of TNG is waaaay worse than the beginning of B5.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2018 03:35
|
|
|
Yeah I've watched s1 of B5 countless times and I've only made it through the entirety of TNG s1 once, when I was a kid through syndicated reruns.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2018 03:54
|
|
|
Doctor Zero posted:That’s a good analogy. The very beginning of TNG is waaaay worse than the beginning of B5. Agreed, but then with the exception of a handful of episodes TNG never got better than the beginning of B5. It sure as hell never got as good as the best of B5.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2018 08:23
|
|
|
With TNG Rodenberry was given way too much influence and power, and all the writers and staff that had regarded TOS as a masterpiece and thought he was some visionary genius quickly realized that he was actually pretty bad. Like, old school racism and misogyny bad. B5 thankfully had JMS who even in the early 90s had some interestingly progressive ideas for the show, like strong female characters in positions of command. For all the other quirks of the 90s, even in 20-30 years looking at it you can't really say that B5 didn't age well compared to its peers because there was a lack of that one super racist episode early on.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2018 09:53
|
|
|
pentyne posted:With TNG Rodenberry was given way too much influence and power, and all the writers and staff that had regarded TOS as a masterpiece and thought he was some visionary genius quickly realized that he was actually pretty bad. Like, old school racism and misogyny bad. Roddenberry must have gotten kookier with age. In TOS he had Nichelle Nichols read for the parts of Spock and Bones because he hadn't decided that their characters would be male.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2018 11:23
|
|
|
V-Men posted:Roddenberry must have gotten kookier with age. In TOS he had Nichelle Nichols read for the parts of Spock and Bones because he hadn't decided that their characters would be male. It's hard to say because a lot of his earlier stuff was tempered by other people. Even Star Trek: The Motion Picture, despite having him involved, was still way more "normal" than it could've been (if the novelization written by him is to be believed). Supposedly during the last years of his life, a good deal of it was due to his lawyer's interference, but I can't cite that and might be remembering incorrectly.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2018 19:09
|
|
|
V-Men posted:Roddenberry must have gotten kookier with age. In TOS he had Nichelle Nichols read for the parts of Spock and Bones because he hadn't decided that their characters would be male. There were multiple factors that contributed to his deterioration: - In the 60s, he was still relatively young and relatively successful. (Successful compared to other producers? Maybe not as much... but how many writers never manage to get a show on TV in the first place?) By the late 70s, he had sabotaged himself enough times that it was hard to deny that the apex of his career was a three-season show that never got great* ratings. So his natural insecurity only ever got worse. - Paramount took creative control away from him after the trainwreck production of the first Trek movie, relegating him to "creative consultant" where he was promised that his memos would always be read, but there was no obligation to follow his advice/requests/dictates. To be fair, his memos were read, and some of his ideas were allegedly incorporated... but he was still very bitter over losing control, and moreso over the direction that the sequel movies took under producer Harve Bennett. This only played into his natural tendency to blame The Man and squabble with management, but it also spurred him to paranoia when TNG began production - he was always fearful that if a writer or producer became too good, Paramount would kick him out again and install the rising star in his place. - Rabid Trekkies had spent a couple decades exulting Star Trek as great, brilliantly insightful art, and promoting Gene as an equally great and brilliant man. This fed his ego tremendously and made it easier for him to huff his own farts, but also fed a natural desire to blame others for his lack of success elsewhere. - Gene had been smoking pot at least as far back as the late 60s, but in the 70s started experimenting with (and eventually, habitually using) harder drugs and developed a pretty severe drinking habit. This did his cognitive abilities no favors. Between his natural insecurity and his paranoia, he (and his lawyer!) took to rewriting scripts, demanding unnecessary changes, and even just outright sabotaging some of the people who worked on the show. That would have been bad enough under a competent producer (or even Gene at his prime), but by 1986 after years of hard drug abuse, he was rapidly mentally and physically deteriorating. He was known to call in a writer to give notes on a script another writer had written. TNG's first season saw thirty-five writers come and go. Gene (and his lawyer), through abusive behavior and bizarre witchhunts to ferret out perceived traitors, drove off the TOS old guard he'd initially hired on at the beginning. Paramount wound up paying off David Gerrold with a large undisclosed sum to settle an imminent lawsuit that, had Gerrold won, could have seen him awarded a permanent co-creator credit for his work on the TNG writers' bible. How much of the racism and misogyny that erupted late in his life was due to his deterioration, or was simply better-hidden in his past, can't be said for certain. He was certainly always willing to exploit and use the women around him. But it's also entirely true that, just as some people's views evolve to be more enlightened as they grow older, some people's views go the opposite way. In my opinion one of the big takeaways should be that if anyone tries to say "well, starting a sci-fi series is haaaard, look at TNG season 1," they're implicitly admitting they couldn't do better than a senile, drugged-out old man. Which isn't to say that starting a series isn't hard... just don't use TNG as your point of comparison! Farmer Crack-Ass fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jun 6, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2018 20:25
|
|
|
V-Men posted:Roddenberry must have gotten kookier with age. Roddenberry was always a drunk, and then in the '70s he discovered LSD and later cocaine. He was extremely mentally unstable by the time TNG was in development (decades of substance abuse will do that to you), often forgetting things 30 seconds after he said them, and as a result his lawyer, Leonard Maizlish, was acting in his stead much of the time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2018 20:27
|
|
|
I didn't read the whole thread, because it looks like it gets kinda spoilery, but I just wanted to chime in and say I'm on my first watch through, and I'm not disappointed. Just finished season 1 and I am just totally struck at the budget jump. It's so stark, the difference between the look of 1 and 2. I am a little bummed that Sinclair has been sent away, I really liked him. He seemed very Gandalf to me- someone you could look up to and trust, even when things are dire.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2018 22:17
|
|
|
sam_jackson_hold_onto_your_butts.gif
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2018 22:23
|
|
|
Narzack posted:I didn't read the whole thread, because it looks like it gets kinda spoilery, but I just wanted to chime in and say I'm on my first watch through, and I'm not disappointed. Don't worry - they replaced him with Tron.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2018 01:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 22:40 |
|
|
I'll definitely get used to him, and 2 episodes in, I do like him. I just really liked Sinclair.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2018 01:33
|
|