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JcDent posted:Yeah, but when they say "Cossack" you probably imagine a fuzzy hat, sabre and musket, not what seems like the actual Mongols that torched Baghdad. Same as TYW Swedes coming from, ugh, viking Swedes, but not looking like/being culturally the same as vikings. I mean, it's not their responsibility to meet your stereotype instead of what's closer to the historically accurate thing? I know they gently caress up in places but, this is like demanding that Vesten have loving horned hats because when people say viking they imagine those stupid horned hats.
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Jul 31, 2018 16:59
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But that's the think: TYW Swedes are not vikings... but they are in the game. I'm just saying that the Khazars don't summon the images of Cossacks. Fine, all of my criticisms of the game are invalid, I'll shut up.
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Jul 31, 2018 17:08
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Sigmata is so bad I'm just going to have to play ref and blow the whistle on this poo poo. If McCarthy was president in 1962, there would not be humans alive on this planet anymore. Also, he was already an alcoholic and maybe addicted to opioids by the time Murrow got to him. Even if he didn't start nuclear war, if his presidency was a series of military blunders, why hasn't the U.S. collapsed? And what are our allies doing while we're turning the Cold War into a hot one, that we're losing? What happens to American jingoism when we pick fights with the Eastern Bloc and lose? Does the game's setting info even try to address how the regime is dealing with domestic economic collapse? Again, how are our allies responding and why hasn't the Communist world taken advantage?quote:School curriculum is rewritten to focus less on world history and other countries and is replaced with propaganda about American exceptionalism and how to be a good civic participant in the glorious American system. Leftist influence is methodically crushed and discredited. The big project of the late 1970s and 1980s is systematic mass incarceration and deportation of “criminals”, immigrants and prospective immigrants. Credit where credit is due, I guess...? Because this happened in the real world.Liquid Communism posted:Randian Libertarians upset that the fascism is getting in the way of profits, Fascism is inherently capitalist Davin Valkri posted:Did the author say anything about why he didn't go with the Arab Spring theme directly? potatocubed posted:The overwhelming impression I have of Sigmata is that the author just doesn't know enough about politics or history to write the game he wanted to write. Like, sure, base your factions off the Arab Spring, whatever -- but you can't just translate those into 1980s America and have things still make sense. That's not how politics works. quote:Of course, the other impression I get of Sigmata is that the dude was trying to write a real-life resistance handbook disguised as a game. And... I don't know what I think of that?
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Jul 31, 2018 17:17
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JcDent posted:But that's the think: TYW Swedes are not vikings... but they are in the game. Have you considered just not being the most intellectually lazy poster instead of getting offended and claiming you’re taking your ball home when people call you out on your bullshit?
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Jul 31, 2018 17:17
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 Pictured: Cossacks. Also pictured: 17th century Mongols.
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Jul 31, 2018 17:35
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7th Sea 2: Nations of Theah, Vol. 2 - Ussuran Dueling Ussuran duels have always favored unarmed combat. Indeed, some Ussurans claim the only true measure of a warrior is the fist. Because of this, there are many formalized schools of unarmed combat in Ussura, and their practice transcends social class. Many boyars still favor fistfighting over fencing duels. Because you don't need special equipment, most villages in Ussura have a small handful of Duelists, who pride themselves on teaching and training others. They typically spend their time drinking and watching the local kids brawl, seeking out those that seem to have the instinct for it afterwards and training them rigorously. In cities you can find formal and prestigious dueling academies, such as the Schola Vani ('School of War') in Pavtlow. Parents actively seek to send their children to these, though admission is usually limited to the children of boyars or those who can pay for the privilege, though the rare muzhik gets in on scholarship if they are very talented. While such scholarships are very rare, they provide hope for muzhiks that, with sheer will and strength, they can rise above their station. Ussuran duels are displayed during holidays and the Winter Fairs. Boyars often host dueling contests in honor of Matushka, sending word throughout the region so that the best Duelists may attend. Depending on the holiday, fair or host, one of several kinds of competition may occur. One rule takes precedence over all others, though: you don't hit a Duelist that's fallen to the ground. Period. Ever. The most typical and common duel is the one-on-one fistfight, in one of two forms. The first, called perestrelka ('skirmish') involves dodging and weaving, hittin when you can. The second, povoroti ('turns') is practiced only by the toughest, because it's taking turns punching each other, no dodges. You may only defend with your arms and wait. The most popular form of contest, however, is called a wall-on-wall match. These are considered the highest form of Ussuran entertainment, and may involve anywhere from dozens to hundreds of participants. Wall-on-wall matches can last for hours, as the participants are divided into teams, called walls. Each wall has a chief fighter that serves as their tactician and commander, and each wall forms a tight formation, three to four ranks deep. The goal is to attack the other wall and push them from the dueling area. Wall-on-wall matches rely on basic tactics, as the teams try to breach the other wall with their heavy fighters or attempt to encircle it and force it to defend against attacks from all sides. Walls often use false retreats or other tactics to lull foes into false complacency. However, generally speaking, a wall attempts to never, ever break formation, as doing so risks giving the other wall an advantage. In all cases, Duelists typically fight bare-armed, to prove that they are using only the strength of their muscles, without iron or steel reinforcement. Bare-knuckle fighters are given as much respect in Ussura as fencers are elsewhere. It's not that Ussuran duelists never use weapons, of course. A true master Duelist realizes they must sometimes fight on an opponent's terms, and they are often eager to learn fencing styles of combat. These techniques have also always been useful in war for the pragmatic Ussurans. While fencing is rarer among Ussuran Duelists, it is not unknown. It's most common in cities, where some dueling schools teach it as part of the curriculum. Among kin and other Ussurans, though, boxing remains supreme. The biggest dueling festivals are unquestionably held on the eve of the new year, when the cities and towns slaughter vast amounts of livestock for meat and uncork the best ales. Children head to bed early in hopes of gifts from Grandfather Frost and his granddaughter, Snegurochka, while the public squares fill with dueling exhibition matches. The best fighters gather to compete, one-on-one and wall-on-wall, to gain fame and favor among the boyars. The ultimate goal for those that dare to aim high is to be invited to duel one-on-one in Pavtlow on New Year's Eve, and even the loser of such a match is sure to come into fame and fortune. Kulachniy Boi is the most widespread style of unarmed fighting techniques in Ussura. It means 'fist pugilism' and it focuses on punching and boxing generally, for both practical and ceremonial purposes. While festival fights are not meant for permanent harm and so do not use the most powerful techniques of the style, that changes when the Duelist heads out into the world. When dealing with armed and deadly foes, the Duelist puts on rukavitsa, specially made gloves and metal arm guards, which grant their fists the ability to produce much more damage than fighting purely unarmed, but still maintaining the same appearance and style, especially if worn under sleeves. The style bonus is Iron and Velvet. When wearing rukavitsa, you may use Brawl in place of Weaponry for all Duelist Maneuvers. Further, you get one free Raise to keep your weapon concealed. Now, legends! Ussura is a haven for strange magical beings and spirits, and the locals mostly continue to take part in rituals to keep the spirits happy and protective of them. So what are these legends? Well, there's the Chervona Ruta, the Fern Flower, a rare yellow flower that grows on the mountain slopes. Legend has it that once each year, on the summer solstice, the setting sun grants its color to the flower for just one night, turning it red and enchanting it with summer's luck. Picking a red fern flower brings both magic and danger. The flower can bring many benefits, as it brings luck or wealth to those that carry it, for as long as it is alive. Drying it, unfortunately, doesn't extend the magic. If you give it to someone else, it can forge a love bond, though the magically made love fades when the flower dies. Some say it always gets replaced by hate, while others say that it can produce a natural love that will outlast it. These people claim red fern love is stronger than any other. If it is woven into a bracelet or crown and worn, the flower grants the ability to speak to animals in the areas where the fern grows. However, it is also known that evil spirits guard the ferns, and those that would pluck them must kill or outsmart these spirits to gather the flower's blooms. In truth, the spirits aren't evil. (The magic is entirely real, though.) Rather, they are servants of the Leshy Poludnitsa, called Lady Midday. She is a cruel, pessimistic Leshy of summer, who hates humans and sees agriculture as an attack on the land. She curses farmers with heat sickness if they can't solve her riddles and cuts those who cross her down with a vicious scythe. She blessed the chervona ruta with the power of the solstice in order to win a wager with Matushka, insisting that greedy humans always put themselves first. She made the leaves of the fern able to make a tea that gives a lesser, more temporary form of the flower's power, but to gain the real strength, you must uproot and kill the flower itself. She bet Matushka that nine of ten times, a human would kill the flower over brewing the tea, and her spirits guard the flowers not to stop it being picked, but to see what the intentions of the picker are and report on them. Those who pluck the flower for selfish ends are hunted by Lady Midday, while those who take only the leaves or who take the flower out of selfless need on someone else's behalf she leaves alone. If you were to learn the truth, you might be able to persuade her that she's wrong about human nature, ending the wager. Lady Midday is Strength 9, Elemental (Heat) and Relentless. Few have ever seen the Firebird, though many claim to have done so. Fewer yet possess one of her feathers, though many have fakes. Many stories exist, varying by region, on the Firebird's powers. Some say she can heal the sick and resurrect the dead, others that she grants wishes at the cost of lifespan, which she stores in her tail feathers to hand out to the worthy, others that she can sense lies and burns those who lie and cheat others. All agree, however, that she is a beautiful bird with fire-colored plumage, and that her feathers bring warmth, light and luck. Just enough people have seen the Firebird or found her feathers to keep people searching for her, out of greed, need or desperation. Boyars seek to cage and capture her, merchants try to gather her feathers to sell to kings and nobles, children hunt her to cure their ailing parents. Some even want to worship her. The Firebird is ever-elusive, attracting people that chase her to get her to fulfill promises she has never made. Some say she can be found in the mountains around Breslau, others that she lives in Vir'ava Forest. Few ever find her, however. In truth, the Firebird began life as a girl named Stasya, abused by her parents and made to work long hours with little respite. She went hungry most days, mining for rubies. Koshchei heard of her plight and rescued her. However, she did not enjoy life in his castle, wishing to be free to roam the countryside. This he could not allow, for to free her would endanger all his other charges. Thus, Stasya made a deal with a Leshy of fire, who turned her into a bird of flame and light, and she flew out of the castle. However, the Leshy refused to return her to human form. Now, Koshchei seeks to find her, afraid she will reveal his secret and endanger all. His interest in the Firebird has drawn others to want to capture her, too, assuming she has some kind of magic. She does not; the legend has taken on its own life. Many boyars, including the Deathless, offer great rewards for her capture. She, meanwhile, wants to find someone who can turn her human once more, or at least protect her from the greed of others. She will not be anyone's prisoner, no matter how good their intentions, but she also fears retribution from people who learn that, in fact, her only magical ability is that she has a fiery, warm glow. Until she can find someone who truly seeks to help her, she fights for her life to avoid capture. She is Strength 4 and Elemental (Fire). Next time: More monsters.
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Jul 31, 2018 18:01
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Sigmata was authored a guy called Chad Walker? From how it was originally about Arab Spring and then crudely repurposed to be set in America I figured the author would be either someone from the Middle East or has close ties to it not what seems to be a random American. 
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Jul 31, 2018 18:07
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The bar for RPG writing about Asia, Africa, and South America is still very low.
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Jul 31, 2018 18:13
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Communist Zombie posted:Sigmata was authored a guy called Chad Walker? From how it was originally about Arab Spring and then crudely repurposed to be set in America I figured the author would be either someone from the Middle East or has close ties to it not what seems to be a random American. I just enjoy that the most blind reading of current political climate was written by a Chad.
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Jul 31, 2018 18:28
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Communist Zombie posted:Sigmata was authored a guy called Chad Walker? From how it was originally about Arab Spring and then crudely repurposed to be set in America I figured the author would be either someone from the Middle East or has close ties to it not what seems to be a random American. I get the impression he didn’t make it about the Arab Spring because he was worried he wouldn’t do it justice. In that, he was clearly right.
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Jul 31, 2018 18:29
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Im not saying that an Arab Spring Sigmata wouldve been better but the one we got was very bad for an American writer, and if the author was from a different country then all the stuff they got wrong would be more forgiveable since they arent embedded in our culture. Like where thr gently caress is the Klan? They should be having a field day in Sigmata's America. Edit: DalaranJ posted:I get the impression he didn’t make it about the Arab Spring because he was worried he wouldn’t do it justice. In that, he was clearly right. I have to wonder now how much research he did for either version of the game because it feels like not much. Communist Zombie fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jul 31, 2018 |
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Jul 31, 2018 18:30
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JcDent posted:But that's the think: TYW Swedes are not vikings... but they are in the game. You'd get less blowback if you hadn't been defending DeGenesis' Scary Black Slavers as 'Europe doesn't understand racism', and maybe stop passive-aggressively whining about people being mean to you because you refuse to listen when other people try to correct you.
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Jul 31, 2018 18:33
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Halloween Jack posted:
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Jul 31, 2018 18:35
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Usually the capitalists just turn the undesirables into literal slaves. Hence why the capitalists loved the literal nazis.
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Jul 31, 2018 18:37
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Robindaybird posted:You'd get less blowback if you hadn't been defending DeGenesis' Scary Black Slavers as 'Europe doesn't understand racism', and maybe stop passive-aggressively whining about people being mean to you because you refuse to listen when other people try to correct you. What can I say, I'm learning about racism as I go. And I do try to understand what people are saying, that's why I'm on SA.
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Jul 31, 2018 18:41
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Terrible Opinions posted:Usually the capitalists just turn the undesirables into literal slaves. Hence why the capitalists loved the literal nazis. MilHist said that Marxism holds fashism to be capitalism's reaction to communism, replacing international solidarity vs. the bourgeois with local solidarity vs. The Scary (Foreign) Other and I belive that.
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Jul 31, 2018 18:44
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There's a weird trope in RPG writing of making the "swarthy" peoples the ones who loving love slavery. The Wilderlands of High Fantasy, Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea...it seems to be prevalent in games that carry a heavy 20s-30s pulp fantasy influence.
Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Jul 31, 2018 |
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Jul 31, 2018 18:59
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Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay: Tome of Salvation Sigmar! What is best in life? To build a ton of roads and write laws and keep records of taxation after you kill a shitload of orcs. We know the basics of Sigmar's life and the author is obviously favorably deposed towards him, this part of the text being written in the voice of a Sigmarite priest. What I find more interesting is what the text chooses to emphasize about him and about the attitude towards his eventual divinity. Sigmar is portrayed as a hero of masterful ability at both war and diplomacy, having convinced more tribes than he had to conquer in joining him. He is also lauded for saving the dwarfs as well as the humans, and moreover for establishing the friendship with the dwarfs that allowed the early human tribes to thrive. His original ascension to a sort of high-kingship is explicitly depicted as being patterned on the fashion of a dwarven High King; this is where the humans got the idea that you could have a tribal King but then also a King of a large confederation of tribes, who rules on a level above individual Kings and Queens. Sigmar bargained with the dwarfs, as did his people, and the text also emphasizes that dwarfs began to come and live among humans. They were happy to build roads and stone buildings for their allies as long as they were respected and fairly paid, and humans were glad to assist them against beastmen and greenskins. Dwarven runes and captured proto-Tilean writing from the site of what would become modern Nuln (itself already a major international hub among the tribes) allowed Sigmar's court to declare a formal written language for the spoken tongue of his Unberogen tribe. This would become the ancestor of modern Reikspiel and allow the tribes to keep records. Sigmar also saw the creation of a formal calendar and the defeat of a risen Nagash in 15 Imperial Calendar (dated from his ascension to the throne). The author is wrong when he claims Sigmar defeated the Bretoni and drove them into modern Bretonnia. I have other sources that show pretty clearly the Brets went there straight from the original migratory coalition and had been domesticating horses and modeling themselves on depictions of High Elf cavalry since like -700 IC, but the author is in the voice of a nationalist who is attributing everything to a single Great Man (who is also his God) so a few inaccuracies in this fictional history are to be expected. What's interesting is that the author attributes the defeat of the Norsii and their being driven into modern Norsca to their 'long worship of the Dark Gods'. This is, again, incorrect; other sources in the line are pretty clear the Norsii simply refused to recognize Sigmar's authority, and that they had killed his father Bjorn in war. The Dark Gods came later, after they were driven north. I'd suggest this is an attempt to erase a major historical mistake by Sigmar or more religious propaganda about why any sane Imperial should hate the Norse. This text also agrees with the Kislevite book that Sigmar made common cause with the Ungols of proto-Kislev and signed pacts of mutual aid with them. What's interesting is that no-one ever seems to suggest Sigmar made a huge mistake by remaining unmarried and leaving behind no heir and no plan for succession. It comes up in multiple books, and it's always reported as quickly as possible, with as little detail as possible, that Sigmar just decided to leave after 50 years on the throne and left it up to others to decide what should happen with everything he'd overseen. It always feels like modern Imperials are afraid to dwell on why he did this. Also interesting to remember that of the 3 major human nations with actual sourcebooks, only the Kislevite Gospodar Khan-Queen Mishka actually bothered leaving a settled successor when she decided to ride north to face the darkness by herself. Sigmar just walked off the job, Giles was shot in the back (probably by the Wood Elves), and only Mishka actually dealt with who should keep going after her. Sigmar's power vacuum almost became the first of many civil wars over Imperial succession, until the high Priestess of the mother god Rhya suggested that the Counts vote for a leader they could agree on to be a first of equals. This created the Electoral Vote and the relatively weak central office of the Emperor; Sigmar had far more authority than the vast majority of Emperors who came after him. What's curious is the myths of what Sigmar did when he left almost all say he was going to return Ghal Maraz, the titular Warhammer and symbol of Imperial office. Yet somehow it ended up back in human hands and is still the traditional symbol of office to this day. Many of the myths suggest he went east, past the World's Edge mountains; perhaps retracing the steps of the original human refugees? Within twenty years of his disappearance, a wandering holy man named Johann Helstrum claimed that he had seen a vision of Ulric presenting a crown to Sigmar before the other divinities of the humans, marking him as one of them. In the original vision, Sigmar kneels before Ulric to receive his divine status, as he was a follower of Ulric (Ulric being chief God of the Unberogen tribe) in life. Ulricans did not care for this, nor did some of the other cults, but the people loved the idea. When Helstrum went on to proclaim that Sigmar's laws were holy and had to be obeyed as the laws of a God, and that the nobility and especially the Emperor represented his will on earth...well, the early Imperial nobility suddenly found themselves very happy with the new Sigmarite faith and its proclamation that they had a divine right to their wealth and authority. Sigmarite religion becoming the de-facto main state religion of the Empire would cause and prevent a great deal of strife, as the rest of Imperial history is going to be marred by occasional stabs at Sigmarite monotheism or very angry Ulrican rejections of Sigmarite divinity. Next Time: The Cults take their modern shapes.
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Jul 31, 2018 19:13
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Halloween Jack posted:There's a weird trope in RPG writing of making the "swarthy" peoples the ones who loving love slavery. The Wilderlands of High Fantasy, Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea...it seems to be prevalent in games that carry a heavy 20s-30s pulp fantasy influence. I blame popculture. High school history teaches you that slavery in Europe ended with Rome, and you could only find it Somewhere Else... and the Americas during colonization . So Medieval fantasy white folks are all lords and peasants, and Medieval fantasy offwhite people partake in alternate economic schemes. Or racism. Racism probably works.
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Jul 31, 2018 19:24
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Halloween Jack posted:There's a weird trope in RPG writing of making the "swarthy" peoples the ones who loving love slavery. The Wilderlands of High Fantasy, Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea...it seems to be prevalent in games that carry a heavy 20s-30s pulp fantasy influence. If I had to guess, I'd say it's because for fantasy settings, modern/American slavery doesn't spring into people's minds due to the time frame. For a more fantasy/medieval-themed setting, people's brains are gonna snap back to either historical examples from that time period or stereotypes they've seen in other fiction. And thinking back, for fantasy settings, any time I've seen slavery it's generally been either Norse-themed or Berber/Arabic-themed. It feels like the whole "pirate Sultan who kidnaps whiteys for fun"-thing was a semi-prevalent stereotype for a while.
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Jul 31, 2018 19:29
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Night10194 posted:It always feels like modern Imperials are afraid to dwell on why he did this. Interesting dramatic answer: Sigmar was gay and in love with a man but this has been extirpated from history. Funny and believable answer: Sigmar was straight up impotent and incapable of siring children. Left field answer: Sigmar was in love with a non-human, and not only could they not have children the early humans wouldn't have accepted it.
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Jul 31, 2018 19:31
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Night10194 posted:Sigmar! What is best in life? To build a ton of roads and write laws and keep records of taxation after you kill a shitload of orcs. If that's not your idea of a good time, I don't want you to know it 
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Jul 31, 2018 19:33
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Cythereal posted:Interesting dramatic answer: Sigmar was gay and in love with a man but this has been extirpated from history. This has long been my personal fan theory on it, yes. But it's a very open question and one to examine. I'm sure there's a novel that contradicts it somewhere, but I don't read the Warhams novels much, mostly just the setting books.
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Jul 31, 2018 19:34
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Maybe Sigmar just felt that leaving things to a royal line would result in rulers that ruled because of their blood, not because of their skills, and he didn't want any part of that.
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Jul 31, 2018 19:37
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Also, if you take the idea that human gods tend to be resonances of their ideals and hopes for the world in the Aethyr, then Sigmar the God may literally be the dream of good government. Which is fun.
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Jul 31, 2018 19:41
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Signar had two sons, but their mother was queen of the chariot people whose name I forget and their policy is that they're her sons, not the sons of some guy she happened to sleep with.
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Jul 31, 2018 19:46
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PurpleXVI posted:If I had to guess, I'd say it's because for fantasy settings, modern/American slavery doesn't spring into people's minds due to the time frame. For a more fantasy/medieval-themed setting, people's brains are gonna snap back to either historical examples from that time period or stereotypes they've seen in other fiction. And thinking back, for fantasy settings, any time I've seen slavery it's generally been either Norse-themed or Berber/Arabic-themed. It feels like the whole "pirate Sultan who kidnaps whiteys for fun"-thing was a semi-prevalent stereotype for a while. and boy it was a popular theme for a certain subgenre of historical romances and adventure stories of the white woman kidnapped to some Shiek's harem.
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Jul 31, 2018 19:47
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Robindaybird posted:and boy it was a popular theme for a certain subgenre of historical romances and adventure stories of the white woman kidnapped to some Shiek's harem. Still is - I'm a librarian and know what people are reading.  Amish romances, also really popular.You also might not think there's a lot of historical gay romance and adventure stories about strapping young men. You'd be wrong, and they're written by and for straight, middle-aged women.
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Jul 31, 2018 19:49
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Robindaybird posted:and boy it was a popular theme for a certain subgenre of historical romances and adventure stories of the white woman kidnapped to some Shiek's harem. There's also the issue that like... "Arabic slavery" and "American slavery" remain kind of harsh in people's minds, while other kinds of slavery, like the Romans, Egyptians... I forget if the Greeks practiced it much... have been kind of romanticized to an extent. "Oh, but Egyptian slavery wasn't so bad because the slaves had all sorts of rights!" Probably partially because of how it's been portrayed in the sort of media that nerds consume(like Small Gods by Pratchett). So ancient era white-on-white(and yes a lot of people's mental images of ancient Egyptians is really just gonna be white people with a tan and better jawlines) slavery is, in a lot of people's minds, just an alternate-but-acceptable method of government.
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Jul 31, 2018 19:52
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wiegieman posted:Signar had two sons, but their mother was queen of the chariot people whose name I forget and their policy is that they're her sons, not the sons of some guy she happened to sleep with. Looking it up, this seems to be from one of the novels, written the year after Tome of Salvation, which might explain the contradiction.
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Jul 31, 2018 19:54
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Communist Zombie posted:Im not saying that an Arab Spring Sigmata wouldve been better but the one we got was very bad for an American writer, and if the author was from a different country then all the stuff they got wrong would be more forgiveable since they arent embedded in our culture. Like where thr gently caress is the Klan? They should be having a field day in Sigmata's America. Well, you don't wan to be too political, I expect. In your... game about politics.
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Jul 31, 2018 20:06
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PurpleXVI posted:There's also the issue that like... "Arabic slavery" and "American slavery" remain kind of harsh in people's minds, while other kinds of slavery, like the Romans, Egyptians... I forget if the Greeks practiced it much... have been kind of romanticized to an extent. "Oh, but Egyptian slavery wasn't so bad because the slaves had all sorts of rights!" Probably partially because of how it's been portrayed in the sort of media that nerds consume(like Small Gods by Pratchett). So ancient era white-on-white(and yes a lot of people's mental images of ancient Egyptians is really just gonna be white people with a tan and better jawlines) slavery is, in a lot of people's minds, just an alternate-but-acceptable method of government. This isn't solely Arabic and more a broader perception of the Muslim world, but there's been a recurring literary theme of "Orientalist" artwork and fiction portraying concubines in imperial harems living luxurious lives half-naked and such. There has been a gradual turn away from this though, especially among Western right-wingers who now view said countries' immigrants being in on a plot to destroy the white race. But for the pre-9/11 decades it was definitely a thing. I think since most tabletop gamers are from the US, race-based chattel slavery of dark-skinned people hits really close to home and thus feels more controversial than what went on in distant countries.
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Jul 31, 2018 20:09
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PurpleXVI posted:If I had to guess, I'd say it's because for fantasy settings, modern/American slavery doesn't spring into people's minds due to the time frame. For a more fantasy/medieval-themed setting, people's brains are gonna snap back to either historical examples from that time period or stereotypes they've seen in other fiction. And thinking back, for fantasy settings, any time I've seen slavery it's generally been either Norse-themed or Berber/Arabic-themed. It feels like the whole "pirate Sultan who kidnaps whiteys for fun"-thing was a semi-prevalent stereotype for a while. Libertad! posted:This isn't solely Arabic and more a broader perception of the Muslim world, but there's been a recurring literary theme of "Orientalist" artwork and fiction portraying concubines in imperial harems living luxurious lives half-naked and such.
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Jul 31, 2018 20:24
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What I imagine is also a factor is that the American system was the worst goddamn system imagined before Hitler, with any ameloriating factors coming from things like "America was relatively fertile and so the slaves did not also die in huge numbers from famine." As such the dominant reaction to reading about past systems of forced labor - and we're already making the consideration that they're getting intellectually curious; although this is probably somewhat more likely among tabletop gamer types - is probably along the lines of "Oh, that's not so bad! I basically have to work two days out of seven for the government anyway, hurf hurf" fake edit: Oh, there was also the Spartans and the Helots, but for some strange reason we want to consider the Spartans to be good guys, or at least OK guys.
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Jul 31, 2018 21:01
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I think the "less bad than US slavery" bits of ancient slavery area also vastly overstated in order to shield white people from admitting that even if they weren't from the US south their ancestors were most likely benefiting from people being worked to death. Like just taking Rome as an example their mortality rate was something like 90% within two years for workers in silver mines, who were all slaves, they literally killed slaves as entertainment, and legal documentation makes it a big point that the head of household is allowed to kill any of his slaves at any time for any reason.
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Jul 31, 2018 21:09
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Terrible Opinions posted:I think the "less bad than US slavery" bits of ancient slavery area also vastly overstated in order to shield white people from admitting that even if they weren't from the US south their ancestors were most likely benefiting from people being worked to death. Like just taking Rome as an example their mortality rate was something like 90% within two years for workers in silver mines, who were all slaves, they literally killed slaves as entertainment, and legal documentation makes it a big point that the head of household is allowed to kill any of his slaves at any time for any reason.
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Jul 31, 2018 21:14
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While yes the US South was a special kind of evil it's really Anglo-centric or just straight up revisionist bullshit to pretend it was alone. It was contemporary with Haitian and Brazilian slavery that were arguably as bad or worse and succeeded fairly directly by Belgian slavery.
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Jul 31, 2018 21:23
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Yeah, if we're going to get into a discussion of what examples of slavery are the worst, there are many awful examples to choose from. Roman mine slavery was a death sentence, and Caribbean sugarcane plantation slavery was similarly a living hell where you were there to be worked to death. Our modern concept of racism was basically invented to rationalize it.
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Jul 31, 2018 21:33
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It strikes me that you could take the whole 'Sigmar left without a heir' thing to support a republican Sigmarite heresy- if Holy Sigmar himself ruled the Empire based on his virtue as a ruler rather than his blood, and even he did not rule forever, then why the hell are we listening to some inbred baron who spends all our tax money on wine and doxies? Also, I guess another possible answer to 'Why did Sigmar not leave a heir?' is 'He did'. Have some family show up from the edge of the world claiming to be the literal line of Sigmar and have that disrupt poo poo.
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Jul 31, 2018 21:44
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Ratoslov posted:Also, I guess another possible answer to 'Why did Sigmar not leave a heir?' is 'He did'. Have some family show up from the edge of the world claiming to be the literal line of Sigmar and have that disrupt poo poo. Sigmar was actually two dwarves standing on each others' shoulders, that's why he got along with them so well.
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Jul 31, 2018 21:48
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