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I expect them to cheap out on the money somehow.
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Jul 28, 2018 18:59
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Obviously he serves the company Yeah, so what the hell are you gonna tell him anything?
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Jul 28, 2018 19:04
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Brain Candy posted:Yeah, so what the hell are you gonna tell him anything? There's literally no reason not to tell them he was the reason I left so there's yet another person to feed fuel to the fire. Pollyanna posted:I expect them to cheap out on the money somehow. This would be illegal lol Good Will Hrunting fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jul 28, 2018 |
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Jul 28, 2018 19:07
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Good Will Hrunting posted:This would be illegal lol Has that ever stopped anyone
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Jul 28, 2018 20:31
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Congrats congrats  It feels amazing to get out and now you have an unexpected little holiday!
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Jul 28, 2018 20:48
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Company A was a startup. It's been successful and it's "going places". The developers are very good at what they do, and very keen. The interview process was tough, and you expect to stay late most days as you "bone up". Company B uses an old tech stack. It's easy to expend 20% less effort on the same ticket as you would at Company A. There's less oversight, and less interest in the product, and in development in general. No Johnny-Code-Alot breathing down your neck, scrutinising every LOC for technical correctness. The company is treading water, but your evenings are all yours. I'm interested in hearing what you would do given offers from both A and B, and whether you've experienced anything similar, what you actually did etc. From a career development perspective, you go with A, but it's not so clear which is more conducive to lifestyle development.
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Jul 29, 2018 14:05
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It depends a little bit on whether the company is saying that you should stay late, or whether you just feel like you have to. Personally, I don't like to work for free and value my time, so when I've been in the former situation I just said no and found another job. In challenging jobs, I find that after 7 hours of coding/fixing P1 issues/whatever I'm not productive any more and may as well go home anyway.
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Jul 29, 2018 14:35
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toadoftoadhall posted:Company A was a startup. It's been successful and it's "going places". The developers are very good at what they do, and very keen. The interview process was tough, and you expect to stay late most days as you "bone up". The code will invariably be much cleaner at company B than company A. Something about trying really hard to write code and working long hours and doing lots of reviews just makes code unreadable.
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Jul 29, 2018 16:30
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Company A, Staying late is a hard no. Company B, sounds ok from a work environment perspective. Bit worrying that it’s ‘treading water’. But I don’t know if that means “the owner is happy and so we’re just coasting” or “plane crashed, we’re in the ocean, nobody to come save us, but we’re alive and the sharks haven’t found us. Keep treading water”.
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Jul 29, 2018 18:47
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Between those two choices, I would absolutely go B, but I would also be looking for something better. It's easy to get complacent at an easy job and just stagnate for awhile, but in general I find I'm happier when I'm working with other skilled people on hard problems. But I personally detest the high-stress, high-risk, no-life startup culture, so A is right out. If I want to gamble on striking it rich, I'd rather work somewhere sane and then buy lottery tickets.
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Jul 29, 2018 18:56
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Staying late for no overtime is a hard pass. Expectations of a >40 hour work week is, too.
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Jul 29, 2018 22:05
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Pollyanna posted:Staying late for no overtime is a hard pass. Expectations of a >40 hour work week is, too. 
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Jul 29, 2018 22:10
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Pollyanna posted:Staying late for no overtime is a hard pass. Expectations of a >40 hour work week is, too. Yes, staying late sucks. Staying late because you choose to and are working on an awesome problem can be acceptable.
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Jul 30, 2018 02:39
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geeves posted:Yes, staying late sucks. Staying late because you choose to and are working on an awesome problem can be acceptable. I am yet to be convinced that working >40 hour work weeks is actually beneficial in terms of work accomplished, in the long run.
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Jul 30, 2018 02:42
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I got burned so bad by my last job that unless I feel extraordinarily comfortable with who I'll be working with and the atmosphere/details, I won't do it. Working consistently long hours means they aren't hiring enough people and are trying to squeeze too much labor out of the people they do have. edit: I support 20-30 hour work weeks
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Jul 30, 2018 02:58
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I don't think there's good data on productivity of developers, but the data that we do have on work hours vs. output suggests that marginal output starts to drop pretty quickly after you hit eight hours a day. That's not to say that you get less done if you work more, but each additional hour over that threshold is worth less than the ones before it. (http://ftp.iza.org/dp8129.pdf has some data for munitions workers, which is consistent with what I've seen elsewhere. They have to worry about the effects of long hours on injury rates, which we don't, but maybe the bug count functions similarly.)
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Jul 30, 2018 03:15
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If something fucks up and you’ve got to pull a late one to fix it, i can accept this maybe once or twice a year. And I’d expect someone senior to be ‘in the trenches’ with me. Even if it’s just to order pizza with the company, tell security you work here, and say “have tomorrow morning off” when you leave. If it’s happening more often than that, or nobody is slogging it out with you, you need to ask why. Either the company is broken, nobody values your time, or it’s your fault. Since having a kid, I’ve realised how bad it is to work late. Sure, when you’re single and without dependents a late night is just a minor inconvenience. You get home and might have to tiptoe into bed to not wake your partner up. With kids it’s another few hours you can’t spend with them, another person who can’t do the mountain of chores, and another 2 hours of missed sleep. And none of that you get reimbursed for.
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Jul 30, 2018 07:56
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Yeah I'm at a job that I otherwise quite like, but considering looking elsewhere because of the amount of out of hours stuff I've had to do so far just to keep up with demands from upper management. I'm feeling kind of trapped though because I moved here from a job that I'd only been in for 9 months, so leaving this one at the 6 month mark is going to have a pretty nasty impact on my resume I think.
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Jul 30, 2018 09:19
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toadoftoadhall posted:Company A was a startup. It's been successful and it's "going places". The developers are very good at what they do, and very keen. The interview process was tough, and you expect to stay late most days as you "bone up".
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Jul 30, 2018 15:14
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Horse Clocks posted:If something fucks up and you’ve got to pull a late one to fix it, i can accept this maybe once or twice a year. And I’d expect someone senior to be ‘in the trenches’ with me. Even if it’s just to order pizza with the company, tell security you work here, and say “have tomorrow morning off” when you leave. This bugged me so much when I took a few hours of sick time a couple months ago and my boss claimed that was against company policy and I'd normally be expected to make the time up later in the week instead. They started suggesting that I'm expected to work at least forty hours per week and, in fact, they work more than forty themself, because "I think that's expected of me." I, meanwhile, said I expected to work at most forty hours a week and pointed out that if I had to come in for half a day on a Saturday or whatever, I'd expect to have that time made up by, say, leaving at lunchtime the next Friday. The conversation quickly hit a stalemate and I look forward to the next time I get sick so we can have it again! (My boss was entirely wrong, by the way, both by California labor law and our own company handbook, so the next time it comes up, we're heading straight to HR to get the policy in writing.)
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Jul 30, 2018 15:23
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So far in my career, the ones that paid me the most are also the ones that gave me the most PTO, had soundest technical practices, and showed greatest respect for my personal time 
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Jul 30, 2018 15:38
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Munkeymon posted:I got a couple of PMs so I'll post another one https://discord.gg/9Q4QHY Can I get an invite to this?
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Jul 30, 2018 18:08
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ultrafilter posted:I don't think there's good data on productivity of developers, but the data that we do have on work hours vs. output suggests that marginal output starts to drop pretty quickly after you hit eight hours a day. That's not to say that you get less done if you work more, but each additional hour over that threshold is worth less than the ones before it. I've seen a fair bit of reports stating that when developers start working 10+ hours per day, after a while (weeks/months) one ends up fixing thursday and friday what was written monday and tuesday. At which point ... yes, you do get less done if you have to come back to it and fix it. One nice story to read about this: https://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/tough-times-on-the-road-to-starcraft
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Jul 31, 2018 05:43
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I am yet to be convinced that working >40 hour work weeks is actually beneficial in terms of work accomplished, in the long run. I generally hold this opinion as well, but gosh you try to tell a founder and they look at you like an alien.
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Jul 31, 2018 19:56
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Why wouldn’t they? It’s in their best interest that you work as much as possible for them.
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Jul 31, 2018 21:05
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Pollyanna posted:Why wouldn’t they? It’s in their best interest that you work as much as possible for them. No it isn’t. It’s in their best interest to get the most value out of you. If you worked 168 hour week I’d bet you any amount of money it’s been less productive than a 40 hour week.
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Jul 31, 2018 21:14
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Measuring productivity is hard. Measuring "butts in seats" is easy, so people cling to it regardless of its lack of utility in measuring anything particularly useful.
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Jul 31, 2018 22:01
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I'm in a lovely double-edged sword situation right now with long hours. We're severely understaffed but we got loads of job reqs open a month ago. I'm also final say on the hires as the senior developer. I keep having to turn down mid to senior developer candidates for being under qualified and simply not technically strong enough. I know we can get real quality developers, I've worked with dozens of people better than anyone I've interviewed so far. But the longer I stay this picky, the more time I'm going to spend stressed the gently caress out and overworked. Not a great situation. I think our salaries must just be too low for the area period for experience BI developers (90k for a Senior Dev in Denver).
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Jul 31, 2018 22:14
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Loutre posted:I keep having to turn down mid to senior developer candidates for being under qualified and simply not technically strong enough. I know we can get real quality developers, I've worked with dozens of people better than anyone I've interviewed so far. But the longer I stay this picky, the more time I'm going to spend stressed the gently caress out and overworked. Honestly I would look for a talented junior with potential. Your salary is low for my Midwestern area for a senior so it's undoubtedly low for Denver. Are you not reaching out to any of the "dozens of people" you've worked with before? You could probably get some feedback on what kind of salary they expect if you know them personally, even if none of them opt to apply.
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Jul 31, 2018 23:38
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Glassdoor estimates $110k for a senior software engineer in Denver, so you are only going to get the candidates that can't get better jobs.
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Aug 1, 2018 00:05
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Even 110 is low for a senior position. From what I've seen in Denver, the average pay for a good senior developer is probably closer to 150. All the top tech companies are hiring aggressively in Denver, and that's pushing salaries higher.
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Aug 1, 2018 06:52
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Whenever I read US salaries I realise I may need to move countries... I'm a team lead, so above senior and USD equivalent is $72,000, but in the UK that's a good developer salary.
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Aug 1, 2018 08:57
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As in many things, the US seems to be a outlier.
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Aug 1, 2018 11:41
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And different areas in the US are more outliers than others. The salaries in Silicon Valley are just stupid. But then again, so is the cost of living.
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Aug 1, 2018 12:41
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Isn't Denver incredibly expensive? I'm under the impression that it's a nice place with people flocking to live there, so dev salaries have to rise to keep up with real estate.
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Aug 1, 2018 14:28
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Cancelbot posted:Whenever I read US salaries I realise I may need to move countries... Have you seen what we pay for healthcare?
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Aug 1, 2018 14:46
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ultrafilter posted:Have you seen what we pay for healthcare? Medical bills are actually the reason I can't leave this job. I have to pay back the signing bonus if I leave before next March, and medical bills destroyed my savings. Though pay is high enough around here I guess it's not unheard of that I could get another $10k signing bonus to pay back the last one. I don't think I can sustain these 60+ hour weeks combined with 2+ hours of daily angry boss meetings for much longer. Loutre fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Aug 1, 2018 |
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Aug 1, 2018 15:52
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redleader posted:As in many things, the US seems to be a outlier. canada isn't bad. my offers (for sr/staff dev) in vancouver and toronto were competitive with offers i got in chicago, charlotte and los angeles my last job change
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Aug 1, 2018 15:54
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2nd Rate Poster posted:Even 110 is low for a senior position. From what I've seen in Denver, the average pay for a good senior developer is probably closer to 150. Any examples? I'm a senior dev in Denver making 120k base, and every company in Denver/Boulder that has contacted me on LinkedIn pays 90-120k max. Hell, I was recruited for an architect role that topped out at 125k. The only exceptions I've seen are no-name companies with poo poo tier benefits and Google/Amazon/etc. who make up a tiny portion of jobs here.
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Aug 1, 2018 17:00
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Loutre posted:Though pay is high enough around here I guess it's not unheard of that I could get another $10k signing bonus to pay back the last one. I don't think I can sustain these 60+ hour weeks combined with 2+ hours of daily angry boss meetings for much longer. The one issue might be the timing of a "signing" bonus, I've seen them get lumped in with the 2nd paycheck or after 30 days, be sure you can float that long and understand the exact terms. I've never actually paid one back but I assume they'd want the full $10k and not just the $4.6k that ended up in your account after taxes, right?
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Aug 1, 2018 17:44
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