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Is it just restart lottery until they decline the union, then declare for independence with what, Hungary and Teutons?
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Aug 11, 2018 17:04
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Wafflecopper posted:Why is that? I've only ever found a reason to do it in relatively unusual circumstances, ie. when I'm strong in a valuable node I can't steer home. Collecting outside your home node only impacts your trade power, so if you control a vast majority of the trade power, you won't lose as much. It's kind of counter-intuitive, but remember that the only thing that matters is what percentage of the trade power you control, not the number value of trade power. Let's say you control 99% of the trade power in a node. If you collect there, then your total trade power gets halved. You would lose a ton of actual trade power, but the total trade power in the node would also decrease by a proportional amount. The end result is that you'd still control 98% of the trade power, which is a barely noticeable difference. In general you can say that when you control the majority of the trade power in a node and your actual trade power gets halved, the percentage of trade power that you don't control gets doubled. And that's a lot of words to say that you should collect outside of your home node in nodes that you safely dominate. But keep in mind that there is another downside - you completely lose the trade power bonus in your home node for each merchant steering. Normally you get +10% per merchant steering, but if you collect in any node outside your home you get nothing. So you kind of have to also dominate your home node or you could lose a lot of money.
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Aug 11, 2018 18:45
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there are several circumstances under which you might want to collect rather than steer, but europe's position in the trade network insulates you from some of them. the most obvious is cape - if you hold a monopoly on cape, which you should in most games, but can't steer that trade home, you ought to collect. the further upstream your home node is, the more sense it makes to collect at convenient points until you can safely move your home node.
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Aug 11, 2018 18:55
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Hi I need to complain that this game really loving sucks now that you can only take 25% of a country's gold in peace deals. I know it's supposed to make it harder to snowball in the early game, but I think it goes way too far. It makes it so that poor countries basically can't do anything without falling into a debt spiral. I'm playing as Sweden right now, and my second war against Denmark put me 1200 ducats in debt, and I got about 200 from them in the peace deal. With all my maintenance at zero and no advisers, I make 8 ducats a month. So now I have to sit here for 10 years at speed 5 doing nothing because none of my neighbors are weak enough to fight without getting even further into debt. Also I have to pray that none of my allies call me into a stupid war or I'll have to raise my maintenance, even if I don't actually fight in the war. Basically this change is a speed bump for rich countries and a loving wall for poor countries.
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Aug 11, 2018 21:42
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Fister Roboto posted:Hi I need to complain that this game really loving sucks now that you can only take 25% of a country's gold in peace deals. I know it's supposed to make it harder to snowball in the early game, but I think it goes way too far. It makes it so that poor countries basically can't do anything without falling into a debt spiral. I'm playing as Sweden right now, and my second war against Denmark put me 1200 ducats in debt, and I got about 200 from them in the peace deal. With all my maintenance at zero and no advisers, I make 8 ducats a month. So now I have to sit here for 10 years at speed 5 doing nothing because none of my neighbors are weak enough to fight without getting even further into debt. Also I have to pray that none of my allies call me into a stupid war or I'll have to raise my maintenance, even if I don't actually fight in the war. 1200 ducats in loans for an early game war is rather extreme and seems very avoidable. If you let yourself get that far in debt, then yeah, it probably should be hard to recover from it. Consider bankruptcy if the truce with the danes is large and your russian frontier is secure. You might recover faster from that than the actual loans. edit: Also you can still throw countries heavily into debt in peace deals. The change made was that you can't have more than 25% of the warscore be used for taking gold, not that you can't take more than 25% of a country's gold, right? Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Aug 11, 2018 |
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Aug 11, 2018 22:21
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:1200 ducats in loans for an early game war is rather extreme and seems very avoidable. Sweden has major manpower issues and needs to rely heavily on mercs in the early game where there's no real distinction between ground forces, techs rarely factor into things, and you don't usually have very solid generals due to lack of AT. So given that there's clearly circumstances where early game wars may be expensive, now that we've resolved that complaint, presumably that guy's main point about the total gold amount that you can take in a war can be discussed.
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Aug 11, 2018 22:24
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Also it's not actually 25% of their gold, it's 5 loans worth of gold, which can be a huge amount of cash as the game goes on. Even though it makes the early game for minors more difficult I think that it's a good change overall.
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Aug 11, 2018 22:24
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Ham Sandwiches posted:the early game where...techs rarely factor into things  what
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Aug 11, 2018 22:52
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Koramei posted:
Yeah, the tactics techs are absolutely huge in the early game. They make for a massive difference in army quality. You can easily beat numerically superior forces simply by having a level of tactics over them. This bonus means less over time as the .25 increase constitutes a smaller percentage of increase and countries have many other military modifiers. You should basically start every campaign by focusing on mil and rushing for those tactics advantages granted by tech levels 4, 6, and 7. Then start all of your major wars when you have those advantages and try to snowball from there. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Aug 11, 2018 |
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Aug 11, 2018 22:56
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I haven't played in a while, did they fix Ming running around kicking the bajeesus out of any player who wants to vaguely look at Asia
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Aug 11, 2018 23:01
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:1200 ducats in loans for an early game war is rather extreme and seems very avoidable. If you let yourself get that far in debt, then yeah, it probably should be hard to recover from it. Consider bankruptcy if the truce with the danes is large and your russian frontier is secure. You might recover faster from that than the actual loans. I had to rely on mercs a lot, and Denmark demolished my navy twice. And Muscovy was breathing down my neck so bankruptcy was definitely not an option. Also I still needed to embrace the Renaissance, which was another 400 ducats on top of that. Oh yeah and none of my allies will ever help me out because they're constantly in debt too! Like it's not a huge deal, I know how to deal with it and I eventually dug myself out of the hole, but it really makes the early game a lot more boring than it needs to be. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Aug 11, 2018 |
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Aug 11, 2018 23:04
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Eej posted:I haven't played in a while, did they fix Ming running around kicking the bajeesus out of any player who wants to vaguely look at Asia They tributize fewer countries now, are less stable, and I've found it generally pretty easy to knock them out of wars against their tributes when it does come to blows (for some reason some of the warscore modifiers in the main peace are carried over to the individual peace deal with Ming, so you don't even have to siege any chinese land to peace them out and even take a lump of ducats from them.) Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Aug 11, 2018 |
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Aug 11, 2018 23:05
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In the next patch they'll only be able to make bordering nations tributaries, not counting the ones they start with.
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Aug 11, 2018 23:16
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Fister Roboto posted:I had to rely on mercs a lot, and Denmark demolished my navy twice. And Muscovy was breathing down my neck so bankruptcy was definitely not an option. Also I still needed to embrace the Renaissance, which was another 400 ducats on top of that. Oh yeah and none of my allies will ever help me out because they're constantly in debt too! I dunno, man. I've never seen debt anywhere in that ballpark in the early game before, even with merc use. It still sounds like the war went sloppily and you got punished for it, which I think is fair. Sloppy play should get punished. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Aug 12, 2018 |
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Aug 12, 2018 05:35
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:They tributize fewer countries now, are less stable, and I've found it generally pretty easy to knock them out of wars against their tributes when it does come to blows (for some reason some of the warscore modifiers in the main peace are carried over to the individual peace deal with Ming, so you don't even have to siege any chinese land to peace them out and even take a lump of ducats from them.) Agreed. It's still a factor in expanding and such, but it's no longer the nightmare of having Timurids as tributaries and Ming drowning all of Eurasia in mercenary spam every single war and never peacing out because their manpower barely flickered down.
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Aug 12, 2018 06:52
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Still kind of wish they'd make the Manchu not terrible at some point so Ming can have a counterbalance early game, but at least the east Asia DLC no longer completely ruins east Asia, I guess.
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Aug 12, 2018 09:42
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Koramei posted:
The first few years before you have gotten any techs or where you're all on tech parity because nobody has pulled ahead
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Aug 12, 2018 19:49
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Ham Sandwiches posted:The first few years before you have gotten any techs or where you're all on tech parity because nobody has pulled ahead Military Tech 4 is absolutely important to the early game cause it's either the moment you pounce with a massive advantage over your neighbours or its the hard stop on your early expansion if your neighbors get it before you do.
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Aug 12, 2018 19:55
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Eej posted:Military Tech 4 is absolutely important to the early game cause it's either the moment you pounce with a massive advantage over your neighbours or its the hard stop on your early expansion if your neighbors get it before you do. No one is saying miltech4 isn’t important. It’s obviously very important and trust me everyone gets it I promise. What they are saying is that there is a part of the game that happens before you reach it.
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Aug 12, 2018 21:09
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Senor Dog posted:No one is saying miltech4 isn’t important. It’s obviously very important and trust me everyone gets it I promise. What they are saying is that there is a part of the game that happens before you reach it.
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Aug 12, 2018 21:13
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Wait, the ottomans have a new mechanic? What do the janisarries do now? The only thing they did back in the day was ruin your day starting on the 17th century.Ham Sandwiches posted:Sweden has major manpower issues and needs to rely heavily on mercs in the early game where there's no real distinction between ground forces, techs rarely factor into things, and you don't usually have very solid generals due to lack of AT. Then you need to make sure you have reliable allies before you declare your independence. Stack up some gold, build up to your army limit and when you have enough people supporting you that's when you pounce. If your strat is to declare war on denmark on the first day of the game then it's understandable that it's going to end badly. I'm also not entirely sure why it would be "fair" to financially destroy Denmark for basically an entire century in that context. It works fine. I'm not even sure how 1200 debt occurs for a minor power in the early game.
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Aug 12, 2018 21:25
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Do you guys just never take loans or something? Gotta pay for forts, mercs, and boats. Like yeah it was probably dumb to rush into a war as early as I did, but the alternative was sitting around for several decades watching numbers go up. And "reliable allies" isn't really a thing in this game, especially when they're all always in debt too. But that's not what I'm complaining about, I just think it's dumb that there's a low arbitrary limit on how much money you can take from other countries. Especially when you annex them. What do you do, just dump all the extra gold in the ocean? Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Aug 12, 2018 |
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Aug 12, 2018 21:53
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I take loans but they really made the interest punishing so you have to more careful than you used to.
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Aug 12, 2018 22:04
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I kinda agree it seems needless game-mechanics wise, although I imagine there was a reason I'm not understanding, but if you're taking the argument to realism, it actually makes a lot of sense that your thieving soldiers would make off with most of a nation's wealth before you ever got to see it yourself. e: also count me among those that takes loans like crazy, even with the new interest levels. Senor Dog posted:No one is saying miltech4 isn’t important. It’s obviously very important and trust me everyone gets it I promise. What they are saying is that there is a part of the game that happens before you reach it. a part of the game where you manage to get 1200 ducats in debt before tech becomes a factor? I'd be impressed at that with someone playing Ming or the Ottomans, let alone Sweden, and I did not at all get that implication from that post anyway. Either way in case someone else thinks like Ham Sandwiches apparently did, the early game is literally the point where tech matters the very most. Especially if you're fighting a megawar, you should really be planning to get past those fleeting years of "tech parity" before the thing is even over.
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Aug 12, 2018 22:05
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Unless I'm starting with Korea/Ethiopia/Burgundy/some other nation with a godking, my first war is almost always so early that we're both at tech 3 with no ideas. Myabe that's weird and most of yall wait til you can rush miltech4 first but I guess I'm impatient 
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Aug 12, 2018 22:50
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Senor Dog posted:Unless I'm starting with Korea/Ethiopia/Burgundy/some other nation with a godking, my first war is almost always so early that we're both at tech 3 with no ideas. Myabe that's weird and most of yall wait til you can rush miltech4 first but I guess I'm impatient I usually do at least one trivial or nearly trivial war very early but between mil focus (if my monarch sucks), squeezing 150 points out of nobles and maybe a show strength war it's pretty quick to hit tech 4
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Aug 12, 2018 23:12
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Senor Dog posted:Unless I'm starting with Korea/Ethiopia/Burgundy/some other nation with a godking, my first war is almost always so early that we're both at tech 3 with no ideas. Myabe that's weird and most of yall wait til you can rush miltech4 first but I guess I'm impatient Okay, but this discussion hasn't really been about the very first war. For kicks, I started up a Sweden game, declared the independence war with England and Lithuania's support in december of '44, and managed to win that decisively with a single loan, even though Lithuania fell under PU and backed out like a week after the declaration of war (it was worth a shot just in case they didn't, though). I built two more regiments, then parked my troops next to the Norwegian army and the one Norwegian fort before declaring war (I think the troops were still being recruited when I declared). Norway had mothballed their fort and began drilling, so wiping them and fully occupying their land was easy. England focused on Denmark proper, while I recruited like three or four merc regiments (what the loan was spent on) and smashed the Danish army laying siege to my grasslands fort on the border. Then the War of the Roses triggered before we could 100% the Danes so I peaced out for independence, most of Scania, and a bit of ducats to repay the loan I took. England actually managed to get stack wiped so it was probably a good idea to end it there anyway. To help myself not fall into further debt, I mothballed most of my forts during the war and I had a ten year truce with the Danes that was expiring in 1460. In the meantime, I built up a decent warchest of a few hundred ducats while also building a shitton of galleys. I secured a Polish alliance and was able to get enough favors by 1462 to theoretically call them in on favors, but they declared a disastrous war of their own and got their poo poo pushed in by Austria and Hungary. Then the English declared war on Scotland, leaving me on my own. That's basically where I left off before I ran out of time. I think if I have to fight this war on my own, waiting a few more years for tech 6 is mandatory. But also, the Danes and their allies out-galley me. Fighting this war on my own would definitely require a few loans. But 1200 ducats is like 15 loans. That seems like a lot. I suppose if I wanted to be truly aggro, I could have declared war on the Livonian Order or something while waiting for my truce to expire. That's probably the best move for a power player/WC player. I don't think it's necessarily wrong to go slower in the early game though if it means more stability going into the mid game, though.
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Aug 12, 2018 23:16
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Okay, but this discussion hasn't really been about the very first war. This is almost exactly what I did, except without mothballing the forts. IME the AI always beelines mothballed forts and I definitely didn't have naval superiority at that point, so it cost me a lot more early on. I also built a fort in Stockholm before starting the independence war. I'll admit I jumped into the war under the assumption that I could take the fortress in Skane really quickly with my 2-siege general and temporarily block reinforcements across the Sound while I dealt with Norway. What I wasn't expecting is that Denmark actually destroyed the fort, so I had one less line of defense against Denmark and its horde of OPM allies. I also wasn't expecting the general to die within a month of starting the war, or for my navy of literally nothing but galleys to get demolished by Denmark and friends. Also my only ally I could call in, the Livonian Order, decided to stop working. As in their armies stood around in 1 regiment stacks right next to Denmark's fort in Estonia
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Aug 13, 2018 00:01
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the ducats in peace deals nerf sucks
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Aug 13, 2018 00:39
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Navies are really expensive and I don't think you need one to win an independence war against Denmark. The war goal is to defend your capital, not take theirs.
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Aug 13, 2018 04:58
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Wafflecopper posted:Navies are really expensive and I don't think you need one to win an independence war against Denmark. The war goal is to defend your capital, not take theirs. Well yeah obviously you don't need one because I managed just fine after mine got sunk. But if you have a good navy and control Skane you can block the Sound and prevent them from entering your territory completely. It makes defending your capitol way easier.
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Aug 13, 2018 05:08
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Don't worry, next patch you wont have to go into dept fighting wars anymore because the territory is pointless to have anyway.
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Aug 13, 2018 06:22
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Please remove the second "and" from the thread title so the meter works with the song. It's driving me insane.
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Aug 13, 2018 15:46
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The Little Kielbasa posted:Please remove the second "and" from the thread title so the meter works with the song. It's driving me insane.
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Aug 13, 2018 15:57
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Hey guys, 75 % discount going on over at https://www.paradoxplaza.com/europa-universalis-all/. I'd grab 'em while they last, this big of a discount is rare these days!
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Aug 13, 2018 15:59
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Fister Roboto posted:Hi I need to complain that this game really loving sucks now that you can only take 25% of a country's gold in peace deals. I know it's supposed to make it harder to snowball in the early game, but I think it goes way too far. It makes it so that poor countries basically can't do anything without falling into a debt spiral. I'm playing as Sweden right now, and my second war against Denmark put me 1200 ducats in debt, and I got about 200 from them in the peace deal. With all my maintenance at zero and no advisers, I make 8 ducats a month. So now I have to sit here for 10 years at speed 5 doing nothing because none of my neighbors are weak enough to fight without getting even further into debt. Also I have to pray that none of my allies call me into a stupid war or I'll have to raise my maintenance, even if I don't actually fight in the war. How much spare gold did Denmark have lying around when you made the peace deal? After 2 crippling early game wars I'm pretty sure the 5 loans worth you got from them was more then what you would have gotten with the old system. Firebatgyro fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Aug 13, 2018 |
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Aug 13, 2018 16:34
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Scenarios where you are at military tech parity: You both fight at military tech 3 you both fight at military tech 4 you both fight at military tech 5 and yeah some starts depending on your starting economy and your ruler stats and the other country's ruler stats, there's no way to pull ahead in the very first few techs, because the point difference is very minor Once you've gone 50-100 years, the cumulative difference from the stat differences (including changing your focus) really add up. In the early game / first few mil techs, you'll often find that many neighbors have kept up on tech and you can't just *decide* that you'll have a tech advantage when there's no particular way to get one. Sometimes you can time a war for a tech advantage, and sometimes you can't, and the entire post was about a scenario where the player didn't have a huge tech advantage and thus spent a ton of cash on mercs. Ham Sandwiches fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Aug 13, 2018 |
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Aug 13, 2018 16:39
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Considering the number of times that a key strategy I've used is rushing to tech 4 for a big early game advantage, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point.
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Aug 13, 2018 16:45
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AnoHito posted:Considering the number of times that a key strategy I've used is rushing to tech 4 for a big early game advantage, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. If you can't understand that there are playthroughs and starts where you absolutely can get to mil tech 4 before you neighbor and use that to your advantage, and others where you can't, but you only recognize one of those, then yeah - let's disagree
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Aug 13, 2018 16:47
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Jean Pony posted:Hey guys, Holy poo poo the dlcs are finally at 75% off 
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Aug 13, 2018 16:50
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