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Xad posted:
Tho I do sorta agree with this one, b- has acted like this in many games, including at least one town game. The data-set is small because he's been scum a lot lately, but to me b- reads neutral at this point. (and my disdain of D1 casing has also been expressed in most my games, but I get how I'm not established enough to have a perceived meta)
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Aug 18, 2018 20:41
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with ham, dancer and bee movie are the weirdest right now, but I feel like b- is...usually always like this?
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I feel the frustration about d1 casing Dancer but look at it this way: to grow a garden, you're gonna need some fertilizer, and what makes a good fertilizer?
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Aug 18, 2018 20:46
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Nep-Nep posted:I feel the frustration about d1 casing Dancer but look at it this way: to grow a garden, you're gonna need some fertilizer, and what makes a good fertilizer? I mean, this game has had an above-average amount of that, and I still don't exactly feel like I have anything to work with  .
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Aug 18, 2018 20:47
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Dancer posted:Not everyone follows your meta. In a game (and a community) where the slightest mis-wording of a post, or your vote landing at an unfortunate moment, can be interpreted entirely differently from how you meant it (language is a fickle ambiguous thing yadda yadda, and messages will seldom arrive at a reader the way the writer intended them), it is perfectly plausible that town players (particularly new ones) might want town to not "waste" a lynch on themselves. Of course, we all know that the lynch isn't actually wasted, because information is gained via the vote and all the other things people have said while interacting with the lynchee, but by acting scummy you are offering scum (at least temporary) cover. You might argue that it is not rational, but it is at the very least instinctive to prefer scum dying sooner rather than later, and if you inadvertently act scummy, and make yourself die now, scum will survive longer. I will not automatically fault someone for curating their posting to not "look scummy". They very well might be doing it with the intent of helping town. Am I the only one who thinks this sounds like Mafia dadding?
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Aug 18, 2018 20:50
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I refuse to be drawn in to playing mafia with you people
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Aug 18, 2018 20:50
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Dancer posted:Tho I do sorta agree with this one, b- has acted like this in many games, including at least one town game. The data-set is small because he's been scum a lot lately, but to me b- reads neutral at this point. I don't really have a meta view on b- with respect to whether it's normal or not I just feel like it's super weird for him to "case" one person, random vote for another, and then say he's not gonna change the vote even though he still thinks someone else is more suspicious. Like maybe it makes sense if you've played with b- more but uh, it doesn't seem like a good move in general? Why not vote for who you're suspicious of or at least give a reason why he wants to stick with Ham. To be honest I am a bit offput by ham too for previous stated reasons but from what b- has posted the vote still feels real weird to me.
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Aug 18, 2018 20:59
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Jedit posted:Am I the only one who thinks this sounds like Mafia dadding? I read it as having a genuine discussion as to why the post wasn't scummy. Do you think Dancer is scum?
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Aug 18, 2018 21:28
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Let’s take the bullet train to d2.. all aboard
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Aug 18, 2018 21:29
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ArbitraryC posted:I don't really have a meta view on b- with respect to whether it's normal or not I just feel like it's super weird for him to "case" one person, random vote for another, and then say he's not gonna change the vote even though he still thinks someone else is more suspicious. I guess I'm a bit burned by a very recent game where I may have tunneled too hard on b- for what I read as views so inconsistent from one moment to the other, that I concluded they are likely fabricated, ergo he's scum (and he wasn't). And this happened at a reasonably critical point in the game. Yes, it's probably a bad play. I'm not necessarily arguing that we take it seriously, just that we not automatically assume he's scum.
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Aug 18, 2018 21:39
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Dancer posted:I'd argue that you're reading at least as much into my behaviour, and your assumed motivations thereof, as I was reading into YPM's, except you don't bother qualifying it. Sorry, uh...what do you mean by this? b-minus1 posted:Let’s take the bullet train to d2.. all aboard what...uh...whatcha doin' here?
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Aug 18, 2018 21:53
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b-minus1 posted:Let’s take the bullet train to d2.. all aboard ive been saying this but then nobody votes for kash so idk i guess town wants to lose this game
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Aug 18, 2018 22:03
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oh woops forgot to ##unvote since jokephase has ended
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Aug 18, 2018 22:13
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Xad posted:Sorry, uh...what do you mean by this? YPM said certain things. The things he said aren't in question, they're right here in the thread. In my "case" I was presenting what motivation might lead a scum player to say those things. For that I had to make a lot of assumptions ("read into his behaviour"), which are likely quite inaccurate. Which is why I repeatedly emphasized that the case isn't strong. My argument in the quoted post is that you were doing that too, except you didn't qualify your statements.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:13
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flerp posted:ive been saying this but then nobody votes for kash so idk i guess town wants to lose this game I’ll vote kash tomorrow
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Aug 18, 2018 22:20
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Dancer posted:YPM said certain things. The things he said aren't in question, they're right here in the thread. In my "case" I was presenting what motivation might lead a scum player to say those things. For that I had to make a lot of assumptions ("read into his behaviour"), which are likely quite inaccurate. Which is why I repeatedly emphasized that the case isn't strong. Oh okay I see, thanks for explaining. Yeah, I didn't qualify them because I think someone being indecisive is kinda scummy. I wasn't reading between the lines of your posts, I was just commenting that you were bringing up points and then immediately dismissing them, which seemed odd to me. Like how you've been putting "case" in quotes. I know it's day one, but like drat have some conviction
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Aug 18, 2018 22:39
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Dancer posted:YPM said certain things. The things he said aren't in question, they're right here in the thread. In my "case" I was presenting what motivation might lead a scum player to say those things. For that I had to make a lot of assumptions ("read into his behaviour"), which are likely quite inaccurate. Which is why I repeatedly emphasized that the case isn't strong. Yeah I don't feel like it was a bad case either as far as D1 goes. ypm stood out to me too with their series of joke votes before zeroing in then reneging on ggn. The "random" votes coulda been an attempt to start something they could just later shrug off as joke phase and the ggn angle was kinda forced. Backtracking on it felt like a way to build some rapport. I think I'm getting a similar vibe with you here, it's a real soft read because its d1 but it does come across to me as suspicious too. On the other hand b-'s play just feels weird, latched onto ham with no given reason and has now expressed he's willing to railroad kash? I can sorta get just going with a seemingly random target d1 and using the info for d2 but it still doesn't really explain why he posted several times he was suspicious of a specific person then went for a random vote for someone else anyways. It sounds like you sorta have meta reasons for finding this less offputting than it comes across to me.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:41
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b-minus1 posted:I’ll vote kash tomorrow binus please...what are you doing
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Aug 18, 2018 22:46
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I could have led a lynch on GGN no problem, even if she flipped town. This idea that it would have somehow looked bad is really stupid. ##vote b-minus until he explains what he's doing. I would also vote Jedit for his shade on Dancer.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:49
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In fact, its suspicious that AC and Dancer are assuming GGN is town now that I think about it.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:50
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Xad posted:I know it's day one, but like drat have some conviction I guess this is us having different philosophies. It would bother me a fair bit to present my opinion inaccurately (e.g. by acting like it's stronger than it actually is), and unjustified conviction is, to me, one of the strongest pings that I should be looking closely at someone. It's scum who have information, and also it's scum who have an interest in presenting something as a foregone conclusion.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:56
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Your Personal Muse posted:In fact, its suspicious that AC and Dancer are assuming GGN is town now that I think about it. My view of GGN as town was predicated on you being scum, which isn't something I'm certain of etc etc.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:58
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im super hungover this morning so this is the short version : my point was that town worrying about looking town send off the same signals as scum worrying about looking like town. so at best you're concealing scum by adding to thread noise, at worst you're going to end up a lynch target. anyway we could probably discuss this forever but it too impedes scum hunting.
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Aug 18, 2018 23:12
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Xad posted:binus please...what are you doing maybe he's for truth, justice, clarity.
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Aug 18, 2018 23:13
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b-minus1 posted:I’m suffering from tunnel vision. Not gonna change my hambeet vote i think this was joining the pun train but yo b-, this? hambeet posted:Bminus do you have a vote restriction / compulsion?
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Aug 18, 2018 23:15
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Xad posted:Yeah I'm just gonna agree with you and say yeah it's a pretty lovely case mostly based on YPM shitposting at the beginning of the game and throwing around votes. I don't really see it as being evidence of being scummy atm, but I do find you being so wishy-washy a little suspicious. You bring up a case, immediately dismiss it, but then no wait he's also trying to buddy up to a newbie maybe? I don't see it as that, either, it...seemed like genuine advice? And then when he calls you out on it you seem to back down pretty hard from "he's trying to get a bandwagon to stick!" to "no no you just voted a lot so it stuck out to me" you mean that b- always plays this bad? *laughs futuristicly*
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Aug 18, 2018 23:18
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GenericGirlName posted:I also agree with what Dancer posted in response to this. But also this post by hambeet entirely works under the assumption that the town could have nothing to lose from a townie dying in a game with more than just vanilla town.... ugh just to revisit theory crafting for a second, roles aren't the be all and end all and towns most important resource is actually it's numbers. omlette / eggs and all that. also scum numbers in games are, ~usually~ around 20-25% and can vary up or down depending on powers, 3p, etc. so i'd guess maybe three scum?
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Aug 18, 2018 23:24
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Binus was initially very good but we broke him early on.
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Aug 18, 2018 23:29
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Luckily I was always bad
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Aug 18, 2018 23:32
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We’re a community that punishes effort posts and rewards trolling, anyone trying to be “good” at mafia eventually has a Frank Grimes moment
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Aug 18, 2018 23:35
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Nep-Nep posted:I disagree with what hambeet said for a different reason, and that's that I believe it's important to be aware of your image regardless of where you're aligned. A really good case can fall on deaf ears if a player has a scummy image. but being aware and being too self conscious are entirely different things.
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Aug 18, 2018 23:42
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##unvote Joke phase appears to be over, I guess.
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Aug 18, 2018 23:42
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Asphyxious posted:##unvote So it is.  ##unvote
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Aug 18, 2018 23:43
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Dancer posted:I guess I'm a bit burned by a very recent game where I may have tunneled too hard on b- for what I read as views so inconsistent from one moment to the other, that I concluded they are likely fabricated, ergo he's scum (and he wasn't). And this happened at a reasonably critical point in the game. he's not really doing much to give people a different impression though, is he? in fact, you're putting in more effort defending him than he is himself.
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Aug 18, 2018 23:47
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b-minus1 posted:So it is. This is disingenuous
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Aug 18, 2018 23:47
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b-minus1 posted:So it is. This is where my view of b- starts turning scummy. You are suggesting now that all your posts so far have been jokes, am I correct? When several of us interpreted them as serious. Writing posts in a fashion that is ambiguous (I can only assume intentionally) so that you can come back later to declare what you meant, after you've figured out which way looks better, is absolutely a scummy thing to do. ##unvote I'd probably still be willing to vote YPM. Also binus at this point. For more options I need to re-read.
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Aug 18, 2018 23:49
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hambeet posted:he's not really doing much to give people a different impression though, is he? in fact, you're putting in more effort defending him than he is himself. Are you suggesting binus should put in more effort to defend himself? Which one might rephrase as "concern himself more with not looking scummy"? And yeah, as in said in my prev post, my mind is changing.
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Aug 18, 2018 23:51
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Retro Futurist posted:Binus was initially very good but we broke him early on. same. also b- you're alright Your Personal Muse posted:Luckily I was always bad same Asphyxious posted:##unvote b-minus1 posted:So it is. 
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Aug 18, 2018 23:51
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Dancer posted:Are you suggesting binus should put in more effort to defend himself? Which one might rephrase as "concern himself more with not looking scummy"? lol you know what else is scummy, deliberately misrepresenting people.
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Aug 18, 2018 23:54
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We must murder B kill him dead
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Aug 18, 2018 23:54
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Dancer posted:This is where my view of b- starts turning scummy. You are suggesting now that all your posts so far have been jokes, am I correct? When several of us interpreted them as serious. Writing posts in a fashion that is ambiguous (I can only assume intentionally) so that you can come back later to declare what you meant, after you've figured out which way looks better, is absolutely a scummy thing to do. what's your case on ypm again?
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Aug 18, 2018 23:55
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