Pershing posted:

To clarify: I'm not rejecting Vigano's statement out of hand. I'm suspicious of it because it comes from a faction that thinks this whole scandal is about homosexuality, not clericalism (as he himself says).

Senju Kannon posted:

my religion is basically "sinners in the hands of an angry god" except instead of an angry god it's a compassionate buddha so allow me to say; it literally does not matter in my religion whether i piss on ronald regan's grave or not, and to be perfectly frank i think holding old white people whose politics murder people accountable for their actions after they die is fine

john mccain was a bad person. calling him a bad person who crashed three planes in vietnam and only got that far because he had a war hero daddy and if he hadn't been a pow he wouldn't have a career in politics does not become morally wrong just because he died. it was fine when he was alive and it's fine now that the old bastard is dead. this idea that someone dying means all of a sudden we have to pretend they weren't an incompetent soldier and an incompetent politician whose "maverick" persona was entirely fabricated is ridiculous. and yeah, when hillary and trump die i'm gonna make the same jokes about their sorry lilly white asses too

Spacewolf posted:

Can I be blunt? You are proving that: A. You have no decency or sense of propriety or timing; B. You are quite probably an insufferable rear end in a top hat in real life.

I mean, seriously, who does this? How obsessive and weird can you get? You think your politics excuses you from all social graces or politeness or really anything resembling not being an rear end.

What's funny is, I used to have sympathy for you, I used to write off the rough edges as a product of a poo poo situation. Now I'm wondering if maybe your situation isn't, at this point, basically of your own making.

Senju Kannon posted:

oh no bad man died better not tell people he was bad man so his family and colleagues can pass off his legacy through rose colored lenses and have everyone think of him as a man who acted independently of his party, was a brilliant military mind, and was a compassionate conservative. what's that? you shouldn't give people an opportunity to whitewash his legacy and use him for future political gains simply because he's dead and has been dying for nearly a year? that's indecent! you can't speak ill of the dead! osama bin laden and hitler were saints because they died and it doesn't matter what they did in life! at least they fought communists!

your boner for the dead is ridiculous. wifebeaters are wifebeaters even if they die, torturers are torturers even if they die, and yes war criminals are war criminals even after death. john mccain was a bitch and he died like one

HEY GUNS posted:

this is normal to all liturgical religions that pray in big groups

Senju Kannon posted:

at least i didn't invade iraq and afghanistan and crash three planes in vietnam

Senju Kannon posted:

and did you extend the same courtesy to osama bin laden?

Senju Kannon posted:

Lutha Mahtin posted:

the vigano hit job is so sloppy it's almost funny

https://twitter.com/Americaeditor/status/1033836111766937607

HEY GUNS posted:

Depends on what time period. That was me and I was referring to pre-1100. I was arguing against chernobyl kinsman, who had recently discovered the Latin Mass and kept calling me a religious liberal.

The text I quoted was from Sayings of the Desert Fathers, which were written down in the 4th century:

Senju Kannon posted:

because i'm a thread regular and i talk about politics a lot. i'm literally a political theologian. when i studied religion it was the ways in which religion influences politics and vice versa. it also just kinda... came up in the conversation? people were getting mad at me for making john mccain crashing planes jokes and yeah, as part of that discussion i mentioned margaret thatcher and what a piece of poo poo she was.

once again; the focus of my post was that francis is getting ratfucked by someone who tried to ratfuck him before. i mentioned that ratfucking is a hilarious politics thing, and i like saying it almost as much as i like saying john mccain crashed three planes in vietnam. people took offense at this "too soon" jab at the dead senator who voted to invade iraq which led to hundreds of thousands of dead iraqis, and i got annoyed that apparently making jokes about his terrible ability to fly planes is now sacrosanct because the dude died. i am legitimately annoyed at this culture that you "can't speak ill of the dead," because apparently what was once okay is now evil because the dude did what everyone is going to do eventually and died. it is not solely a christian conceit, but i think this thread demonstrates that it is very often a christian idea that the dead become holy once they die and you can no longer speak ill of them without causing some sort of grave "disrespect," and this is often used by right wingners to rehabilitate the legacies of genuinely hideous human beings and yeah, it is something that pisses me off. the idea that it's somehow in bad taste to put "ding dong the witch is dead" in the top ten the week thatcher died because we have to ignore the fact that her policies led to thousands of dead people because she's dead and dead people are holy figures who cannot be criticized is loving ridiculous and yeah, your posts about how it's "too soon" or "he's already faced judgement" or whatever is completely ignoring the reality that by allowing these bad faith actors to rehabilitate the legacy of these garbage human beings you're essentially an accessory to their future political goals, which is to further the ACTUAL legacy of these human trash piles.

these have political implications and so long as organizations like the united states council of catholic bishops has an entire department dedicated to lobbying congress then you're gonna have to deal with politics and religion being talked about in the same breath because guess what; they're basically the same thing

CountFosco posted:

John McCain did bad things but did that make him a bad man?

CountFosco posted:

How old is the man? How old is the boy? That story has me uneasy for reasons entirely unrelated to the whole sodomy thing. And it's a pretty questionable attitude to take in general. The idea that if God isn't striking someone down through divine wrath, then it's all good... I'm not so sure about that. Am I supposed to just give Joel Osteen, for example, a free pass because he isn't being burned by divine fire for his obvious heresy?

Pellisworth posted:

I guess I read that more along the lines of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." He's saying he's not going to accuse/blame them, if God wanted to smite them, He could, He's the judge, not us.

Also I dunno about using "sodomy" here. Sodomy can have different meanings and it's not clear from the text what actually happened between the brother and the boy.

HEY GUNS posted:

I think CountFOsco was asking if it was rape or abuse or not. In my headcanon this is two consenting adults, but this was written down probably centuries after it happened by the kind of people who collect the sayings of saints so this little scrap is all we got.

Deteriorata posted:

Speaking of family, I could use some prayers.

My dad is 87 and was diagnosed with pneumonia at the end of July. He got a chest x-ray for it, and they discovered he also had a massive tumor in his lung, which had metastasized to his liver, lymph nodes, and most internal organs already.

The pneumonia won't clear because the tumor is providing all sorts of protected areas to shield the pneumococcus bacteria and keep it safe. After 3 rounds of oral antibiotics, he spent a week at home where he could neither eat nor drink, and slowly degenerated and finally got to the hospital yesterday. He's now on fluids to fight dehydration, three or four rounds of IV antibiotics, and now can barely get out of the bed to go 10 feet to the bathroom with a walker and help from the PT. This man was vigorously working in his garden, pulling weeds and raising fences to fend off deer three weeks ago - and he hasn't even started on cancer treatments yet. We get to start on that once the pneumonia finally clears (if ever).

He's got an awfully long, steep road to climb if he's going to make it and I don't see how he will. I hope as ever for the miraculous healing hand of God, that he may survive this, but then he's 87 years old with cardiac problems - how much longer would he be expected to survive even without all this? We all must go eventually, but life is so precious, we want every instant of it here that we can get.

Anyway, this is a powerful group and I respect your faiths immensely. Please put John Moyer in Midland Michigan on your lists for a while. He's going to need all the help he can get. I'll post with news on his condition periodically.

I love all of you and thank you for the gift of yourselves and these threads.

Samuel Clemens posted:

Well, yeah. Doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't hope for his redemption though.

Pellisworth posted:

post ur huge early 20th century family



this is the Koschitzke family, which HEY GUNS tells me is an extremely East German name. they changed their name to "Kositzky" at Ellis Island because their name literally sounded like poo poo. they emphatically maintained that they were NOT POLISH.

CountFosco posted:

Eh, I think it's enough that we discern a person's actions as being bad, I don't think we need to make the leap to essentializing badness in a human being simply due to their bad actions. I know that some will say that if you say that a person is good but their actions are bad, then it increases the temptation to be lackadaisical on trying to alter their behavior but it makes more sense to me that you would be more likely to stop someone from doing something bad if you thought that the person who was doing the bad thing was essentially good.

Senju Kannon posted:

Spacewolf posted:

Cythereal, those puppies better be a downpayment. NEED MORE PUPPIES after that link.