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The entire season was written before anyone in the writers room (except Chibnall) knew the Doctor was going to be a woman. So the scripts end up a little... generic on who the Doctor is, which gives a lot of room for Whittaker to define it herself, but very little to define it in the actual story. Tennant and Smith had similar first seasons on that; stories that could be done for any Doctor, with small hints of personality in the story. Ten for example, all we actually had for what made him different on paper that first season was 'vindictive, and a bit happier than Nine'. The rest was all Tennant. Thirteen's had 'socially awkward'. It's been there the whole time, but it was really at the forefront in Arachnids in the UK; she's not great at talking to people or understanding social cues. Whittaker seems to have injected a lot of pure happiness into the role that isn't necessarily there in the script, and I expect that will be something that becomes more a part of the character later on. I will say I've been loving her awkwardness, though, it feels very real as someone who's at times very much like that. It feels like she knows what to do 'on paper' in a general sense, but when it reaches the stage of 'interacting with people' she doesn't get it quite right on execution. She can do prescriptive rituals quite well, though, like the prayer at the end of last episode.
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Nov 10, 2018 00:49
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Who fandom is large enough that opinions will probably always vary on any individual run of episodes in the show's history. That said, I'm loving this season. It's not perfect, which I'm happy to talk about, but as someone who also watched classic Who on late night PBS in-between pledge drives, this feels a lot closer to the old-school than at any point in the revival. I think at various points in the revival, "a plot" came to mean a big ending that either involved a million million somethings exploding, the end of a civilization's status quo, or the reveal of an overly complex puzzle box. Chibnall's not great at solid endings, definitely, but I've been far more underwhelmed by the resolution to Impossible Astronaut, A Good Man Goes to War, and especially, especially Hell Bent. Of course, in the classic series, a lot of the "plot" was just people running from point A to B to C and then back to A. To me, the character interactions are a breath of fresh air, and I'd rather have my [One, Susan, Barbara & Ian] [Two, Jamie & Zoe] [...] [Thirteen, Graham, Ryan & Yaz] in the forefront. As for those characters, Yaz and Ryan are far more complete characters after 5 episodes than Clara was after 3 full seasons and several specials.
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Nov 10, 2018 03:51
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SimplyCosmic posted:Who fandom is large enough that opinions will probably always vary on any individual run of episodes in the show's history. I agree with this part
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Nov 10, 2018 05:12
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Yeah, I’m honestly really okay with a low-key, low-stakes season this time around. I’m really done with the Bad Wolfs and puzzle boxes and civilization constantly ending. Just give me three fun companions going on weird adventures the Doctor.
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Nov 10, 2018 05:22
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I think there's a middle ground to be had where the universe isn't at stake, or even a single planet, but still have an episode with some latent tension and mystery. I think every revival Doctor has episodes like this, semi-bubble episodes where nothing is at stake except the immediate area or people and they tend to be some of Who's best episodes. This season so far has, for me, been lacking any tension or mystery at all beyond the immediate - why spiders big (eugh), why goblin hungry, why tent man rear end in a top hat - and I think it's part of why some people feel like the season has been a bit flat. The episodes lead you by the nose from problem to problem to exposition to solution to epilogue without much in-between the lines or even between the directly related scenes. Obviously new Who is free to make its own rules and it's definitely a side symptom of that thing people do where they hate the new Doctor for the first season but hate to see them go by the end of their run, specifically that Moffat's tenure has trained fans to look for a certain level of subtlety and ingrained mythology that they'll have to shake. Still, I could do with a bit more subtext if not an outright plot arc, but as Cleretic said that'll probably change once they're writing for a specific Doctor.
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Nov 10, 2018 06:33
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I've gotten a very 5 vibe from this whole season, in that I like the cast a lot but the stories haven't been very interesting. Rosa has probably been the best so far, but all the others just kind of run together in a generic way. I'd kill to have something as loopy/trippy as "Castrovalva" or "Enlightenment" again. SimplyCosmic posted:Who fandom is large enough that opinions will probably always vary on any individual run of episodes in the show's history. I vehemently disagree, and can't believe you would say such a thing!  There's no "probably" about it. Also this applies to everything about Doctor Who ever.
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Nov 10, 2018 06:46
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After The War posted:I'd kill to have something as loopy/trippy as "Castrovalva" or "Enlightenment" again.
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Nov 10, 2018 06:52
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Rhyno posted:Its not just that picture, I've been worried about how long she can sustain it when 75% or reporting about the show is pointing out that she's a woman and how it's ruining the legacy of the series. I actually remember her saying in an interview that she doesn't really bother reading reviews/social media stuff and wasn't even aware there was a negative reaction for a while. I think if she keeps that up, she'll be alright.
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Nov 10, 2018 07:29
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One thing I did really appreciate about this latest episode was that early on when the Chief Medical Guy called out the Doctor for being a bit selfish and paranoid and it wasn't just the Doctor is always right and that means he's a bad guy, she realized what he was saying made sense, stopped, apologized and re-centered herself to confront the problems at hand. I really connected with that scene and feel like too much in media people are always right (protagonists) or always wrong (bad guys) and there's very little on what to do if you're wrong or get carried away and need to apologize and move forward.
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Nov 10, 2018 08:56
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I really liked that too, it felt like it was giving me back the neurodivergent Doctor who has to work past being self-absorbed and manic-obsessive, which with Capaldi I always found very relatable - Listen is all about Twelve in the throes of a manic episode.
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Nov 10, 2018 09:05
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Orv posted:The episodes lead you by the nose from problem to problem to exposition to solution to epilogue without much in-between the lines or even between the directly related scenes. One of the common complaints, at least from tv critics during Moffats run, was that the stories got too obtuse and complicated and people struggled to follow. Moffat was guilty of leaning too much on the lore of Who (‘the gently caress is a mondasian cyber man!?’ - everyone under 50). I suspect this is an edict from on high to make the show more ‘accessible’ again. The thing is, RTDs run succeded because because he put the focus on fleshed out interesting characters, and, it was refreshingly fun, optimistic and camp at a time when 9/11 and Iraq broke a lot of writers brains. The actors are fine, but no one is anywhere near as memorable as Rose, Her Mum, Capt Jack... RTD prioritised the emotion of any given scene often at the cost of a tight plot. That’s a valid creative choice, and the wider writing team brought enough high concept sci-fi to offset it - Chibnall or someone else seems to have interpreted that lesson as ‘the audience is stupid’. Maybe they’re right. Aren’t the ratings way up this season?
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Nov 10, 2018 10:36
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It took me a while to get seeing the episode because it has been a busy week; I though the last one was slow to start but I enjoyed it once it got going.
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Nov 10, 2018 10:38
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Pastamania posted:One of the common complaints, at least from tv critics during Moffats run, was that the stories got too obtuse and complicated and people struggled to follow. Moffat was guilty of leaning too much on the lore of Who (‘the gently caress is a mondasian cyber man!?’ - everyone under 50). I suspect this is an edict from on high to make the show more ‘accessible’ again. I liked Cassandra The Last Human due to how her plot ended - her surgeries were a result of a severe dismorphia, never being satisfied with her body, so her in her assistant's body going back in time to see her true/pre-surgery self and let her know she was beautiful from the start was a really sweet moment. Also that episode was hilarious for her lines in the Doctor's body. "So many parts and so hardly used~!"
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Nov 10, 2018 10:44
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Potsticker posted:One thing I did really appreciate about this latest episode was that early on when the Chief Medical Guy called out the Doctor for being a bit selfish and paranoid and it wasn't just the Doctor is always right and that means he's a bad guy, she realized what he was saying made sense, stopped, apologized and re-centered herself to confront the problems at hand. I really connected with that scene and feel like too much in media people are always right (protagonists) or always wrong (bad guys) and there's very little on what to do if you're wrong or get carried away and need to apologize and move forward. Yeah I really dug that, and of course the moment she does readjust and stop trying to take control of the situation, the two of them work extremely well together (till he gets outsmarted by fat babby... so it's swings and roundabouts....)
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Nov 10, 2018 11:22
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RTD was an excellent 'moment' writer, even when his plots were eleventh hour hash jobs. Also I never thought of Listen that way before, DW, but it's an amazingly accurate read
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Nov 10, 2018 11:52
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Pastamania posted:One of the common complaints, at least from tv critics during Moffats run, was that the stories got too obtuse and complicated and people struggled to follow. Moffat was guilty of leaning too much on the lore of Who (‘the gently caress is a mondasian cyber man!?’ - everyone under 50). I suspect this is an edict from on high to make the show more ‘accessible’ again. I couldn't say to the ratings but I could see your reasoning easily being true. I definitely think there's room for another kind of Who in the world, much like we get a refresh of the Doctor every few years, there's nothing inherently wrong with a refresh of what Doctor Who is either, at least on some levels. It's also absolutely true that my dissatisfaction with the episodes so far hasn't stopped me from watching more of them, or at any point during an episode have I turned off the TV or gotten terribly drawn out of the experience. My posts in here are very much an after analysis kind of thing because I'm someone who can watch campy dross without complaining in the moment, so long as it's suitably engaging. I'm also one of those people I mentioned, who hate new Doctors and love them when they go, but Jodie has so far missed that bit for me - even Smith and Capaldi took me most of their first seasons - so it's not exactly like I hate what I'm watching. I think in the end if Doctor Who wants to be more than just Time Travel Bad Guy Stopping Adventures it's perfectly welcome to do that, it just has to earn it. So far those parts have missed hard, for me, and the episodes themselves are simply mediocre Doctor Who, rather than the risen Anti-Christ. Oh god I'm one of those fans. "Yeah that was fine I guess... let me tell you everything they did wrong." 
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Nov 10, 2018 12:30
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One of the funnest parts of the RTD era was sitting down to watch an episode, absolutely loving loving it, and then like 45 seconds after the episode ended realizing,"Wait, none of that made any goddamn sense AT ALL!  " but it weirdly often didn't matter because it worked so well in the moment.I mean, there were times he absolutely loving fumbled the play, but he really did haul some lovely stories over the line through sheer enthusiasm alone.
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Nov 10, 2018 12:41
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Jerusalem posted:One of the funnest parts of the RTD era was sitting down to watch an episode, absolutely loving loving it, and then like 45 seconds after the episode ended realizing,"Wait, none of that made any goddamn sense AT ALL! *Cough* Planet of the Dead *Cough*
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Nov 10, 2018 12:55
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Well I did say it "often didn't matter", not that it never mattered! Planet of the Dead is right up there with one of the worst stories the show has ever done. Then we had to wait months for Waters of Mars (which thankfully ruled).
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Nov 10, 2018 12:59
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Fair enough.
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Nov 10, 2018 13:05
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I felt that the pregnant guy in the last episode was more about giving Ryan some room to soul-search with regard to "abandonment" by his father. It did feel a bit hamfisted at the time, but after some of the discussion I've been reading through here, I don't think I could sit through it again without feeling annoyed. Legitimate feelings from Ryan for sure, and I really like the way he and Graham are slowly growing together (perhaps even more than the doctor, the season could be subtly about their story), but god they could have come up with a better vehicle for it.
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Nov 10, 2018 15:15
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Jerusalem posted:Well I did say it "often didn't matter", not that it never mattered! Planet of the Dead is right up there with one of the worst stories the show has ever done. Then we had to wait months for Waters of Mars (which thankfully ruled). I remember not liking it as much as most people did. I would need to revisit it but my recollection is that the creepy bits were good but then stuff like the Dalek not exterminating someone because all Daleks apparently know not to exterminate people who are "important" to the timeline didn't quite land for me. The Doctor declaring himself the "Time Lord Victorious" is a fun idea but it's the last two minutes of the episode and then right at the beginning of the very next one he's back to showing up on Ood world wearing a lei and sunglasses joking about his ribald off-screen adventures with Queen Elizabeth I. It's a good direction to explore with the Tenth Doctor character but it still managed to feel undercooked to me.
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Nov 10, 2018 15:23
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I really like the low key feeling of this season. It's like Old Who in that not every confrontation has to be a world-ending event. Some days you just ruin someone's plot to make a bunch of Mona Lisa's. The only thing that worries me is are they focusing on family so hard because the Doctor is a woman? I hope not, but even if they are doing that it's better than Moffat's "Oooh she's so powerful/dangerous because she's a laaaaaydaaaaay" Can't a woman just be a person? Not all of us have feminine "wiles" or are naturally loving and supportive of family.
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Nov 10, 2018 16:45
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Stairs posted:I really like the low key feeling of this season. It's like Old Who in that not every confrontation has to be a world-ending event. Some days you just ruin someone's plot to make a bunch of Mona Lisa's. Hee-hee. The plot to make a bunch of Mona Lisas would have prevented the creation of all life on Earth.
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Nov 10, 2018 16:51
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it does feel like classic who like no other revival season has so far, at least for me and with the single episode story constraint; obviously lots of factors in that though
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Nov 10, 2018 17:22
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Davros1 posted:Hee-hee. The plot to make a bunch of Mona Lisas would have prevented the creation of all life on Earth. True, but nobody really cares about that bit. That part could have been omitted for all it mattered in the grand scheme of Tom Baker with a sharpie. That's my point, it was more about the characters and the fun of it and less about "ITS THE END OF EVERYTHING (AGAIN)!" that Moffat hammered into us.
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Nov 10, 2018 17:24
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Crusader posted:it does feel like classic who like no other revival season has so far, at least for me and with the single episode story constraint; obviously lots of factors in that though The final episode will involve needing to make a giant cable network, by manually placing them in and around all the buildings on earth - literally running up and down corridors for 55 minutes to save the world.
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Nov 10, 2018 17:25
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Stairs posted:True, but nobody really cares about that bit. That part could have been omitted for all it mattered in the grand scheme of Tom Baker with a sharpie. DUGGAN CARED! *punch*
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Nov 10, 2018 17:28
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Stairs posted:I really like the low key feeling of this season. It's like Old Who in that not every confrontation has to be a world-ending event. Some days you just ruin someone's plot to make a bunch of Mona Lisa's. That's why I liked the dude giving birth plotline tbh. Aside from it being queer as all hell, it's all about men grappling with family and babies and other issues that are usually given to female characters to worry about. It's so so far from that godawful WOMAN STRONG BECAUSE WOMAN CARRY BABY from that one Christmas special and so good for kids to see.
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Nov 10, 2018 17:30
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Organza Quiz posted:That's why I liked the dude giving birth plotline tbh. Aside from it being queer as all hell, it's all about men grappling with family and babies and other issues that are usually given to female characters to worry about. It's so so far from that godawful WOMAN STRONG BECAUSE WOMAN CARRY BABY from that one Christmas special and so good for kids to see. And (as I noted above) it's parallel to a female cop being given a weapon and put on guard duty with an asexual android.
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Nov 10, 2018 17:42
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Pastamania posted:Chibnall or someone else seems to have interpreted that lesson as ‘the audience is stupid’. gently caress you, pal! Stairs posted:True, but nobody really cares about that bit. That part could have been omitted for all it mattered in the grand scheme of Tom Baker with a sharpie. Yeah, that's the weird thing about a lot of of the Tom Baker era. Technically, the end of the world is right around the corner at any given moment, but it's usually not what's driving the action or the tension.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:58
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Davros1 posted:I really liked the last ep. You're not alone. I've heard and read opinions ranging from "Worse than The Twin Dilemma" to "best of the season thus far." I'd go so far as to call it Chibnall's best Who episode (as a solo writer, at least).
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Nov 10, 2018 19:39
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CommonShore posted:And (as I noted above) it's parallel to a female cop being given a weapon and put on guard duty with an asexual android. The Caves of Steel adaptation is going to be gender-swapped?! 
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Nov 10, 2018 20:11
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My wife and I really liked that ep because we have a toddler with a learning disability, and the Pting was just the spitting image of him in mannerisms and behaviour, if not in actual appearance (maybe a little bit in appearance). So many little moments when we just looked at each other and laughed, and its happy face at the end was just adorable. Good ending. Other hits were the Doctor's initial selfish/single-minded attitude and subsequent self-correction, as already mentioned. And just the fact that this episode felt fairly pacey (mostly) with several plot threads all of which actually got wrapped up by the end - it's the first of the series that actually felt complete to me. For this reason I rated it the best so far (with ghost monument as the weakest). Whiffs for us were that momentum-killing monologue about the antimatter engine - seriously, where's your sense of urgency, people? - and the anti-adoption message at the end. I can sort of forgive that bit as it's good character development for Ryan and a believable line for him to take as a character, but still.
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Nov 10, 2018 21:45
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SimplyCosmic posted:I think at various points in the revival, "a plot" came to mean a big ending that either involved a million million somethings exploding, the end of a civilization's status quo, or the reveal of an overly complex puzzle box. Chibnall's not great at solid endings, definitely, but I've been far more underwhelmed by the resolution to Impossible Astronaut, A Good Man Goes to War, and especially, especially Hell Bent. Of course, in the classic series, a lot of the "plot" was just people running from point A to B to C and then back to A. Having underwhelming episodes in the past is no excuse for having underwhelming episodes now. There are only 10 shows, why can't they be consistently good? Orv posted:I think there's a middle ground to be had where the universe isn't at stake, or even a single planet, but still have an episode with some latent tension and mystery. I think every revival Doctor has episodes like this, semi-bubble episodes where nothing is at stake except the immediate area or people and they tend to be some of Who's best episodes. Stairs posted:The only thing that worries me is are they focusing on family so hard because the Doctor is a woman? I hope not, but even if they are doing that it's better than Moffat's "Oooh she's so powerful/dangerous because she's a laaaaaydaaaaay"
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Nov 10, 2018 22:54
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SimplyCosmic posted:As for those characters, Yaz and Ryan are far more complete characters after 5 episodes than Clara was after 3 full seasons and several specials.  Clara was the best developed character that the revival has created and I will fight all of you
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Nov 10, 2018 23:00
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So, the first female doctor having an older white bloke as a companion is good because as it stood, the Doctor was one of the few male role models who wasn't violent. Now, TV has a male role model who not only isn't violent, but also trusts a female authority figure when she says she knows what she's talking about. I think that's pretty rad. E: like, and that's on top of the huge big obvious positive from having a positive female role model with agency and all that other good stuff
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Nov 10, 2018 23:04
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Whybird posted:So, the first female doctor having an older white bloke as a companion is good because as it stood, the Doctor was one of the few male role models who wasn't violent. Now, TV has a male role model who not only isn't violent, but also trusts a female authority figure when she says she knows what she's talking about. I think that's pretty rad. I didn't think of it that way, it seems calculated as gently caress when you point it out like that but nevertheless it's a smart idea when your show is directed at kids watching with their parents.
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Nov 10, 2018 23:23
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Wheat Loaf posted:I remember not liking it as much as most people did. I would need to revisit it but my recollection is that the creepy bits were good but then stuff like the Dalek not exterminating someone because all Daleks apparently know not to exterminate people who are "important" to the timeline didn't quite land for me. I was annoyed that the Doctor is acting so chipper at the start of the next episode (to be fair, I also thought at the time it was obviously being forced by the Doctor to hide how shaken he was) though I do kinda dig the implied "explanation" that he'd just done The Day of the Doctor slightly before this and was still in a good mood from that even if he didn't remember why  One thing that has been brought up in prior discussions of the episode that I think bears consideration is the idea of just how badly he fell on his face as The Time Lord Victorious - he did it all with the notion of saving the life of somebody the universe said MUST die. But his cold arrogance and utter disdain for "unimportant people" sees him gently caress it all up as one of those "unimportant" people runs away from him in terror because she can say just how truly alien and inhuman he is beneath the surface, and the woman he tried to save literally kills herself barely 20 feet from where this "great" and powerful "God" is standing basking in his own glory. I absolutely love the fear in his eyes as he's brought back down to Earth and the way he seems to hide in the TARDIS with full knowledge of just how badly he overstepped himself and hosed it all up. You can argue that the lesson has been learned, or at least the humiliation is fresh enough and he'd drop the act after being reminded that people aren't just pawns to shift around on some board like gamepieces. I think a bigger issue is that RTD was largely mentally checked out by this point. He still had all the stress of running the show and you can't deny his enthusiasm for the character, but he knew he was almost done, he was only doing 5 episodes that year and he didn't seem to really be bothered about given them any kind of unifying theme or even really much in the way of continuity between episodes. The End of Time part 1 is an incoherent mess of a first draft only really saved by a great scene between the Doctor and Wilf, and John Simm just having the time of his life hamming it the gently caress up.
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Nov 10, 2018 23:25
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dsub posted:Having underwhelming episodes in the past is no excuse for having underwhelming episodes now. There are only 10 shows, why can't they be consistently good? *Gran *Grandad.
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Nov 11, 2018 00:00
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