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On top of everything else, Pete McTighe doesn't understand how numbers work. "10% of faux-Amazon's workforce is human, because you need at least 10% of your employees to be human" is not the same as "90% of humans are unemployed".Orv posted:This feels especially badly timed though presumably they didn't know about the whole "Oh Amazon... sucks?" five-second-then-forgotten revolution going on on the internet right now from fourteen months out so they can't be entirely blamed for it. Time had an article about "A History of Amazon Boycotts" in 2014, I don't think you're quite as on the pulse of this one as you think you are. Astroman posted:Agreed. Lots of FULL COMMUNISM NOW people ITT getting pissed off that Doctor Who isn't slavishly advancing their agenda. But you all never use Amazon or Google or Apple, right? Not everyone who is "For The Workers" is a good guy and yeah, they can use unconscionable methods. That you think that overseeing horrific working practices is actually Good because they're not literally murdering (many) people is quite the insight into your worldview. MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Nov 19, 2018 |
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Nov 19, 2018 16:37
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It would be possible for them to resolve the issues at Kablamm without having the Doctor be responsible for it. Have her talk at the end about how this becomes an opportunity for people to examine their society and effect change - which is basically what Capaldi did at the end of Oxygen. Of course, the episode as written wouldn't have been interested in doing that, but it would have been a much better resolution. E: not in response to anyone specific, but people have been throwing around the idea that the Doctor never stays around to change things. Which is true, but she usually hands that responsibility on to someone else, allowing them learn how to deal with those situations on their own. fractalairduct fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Nov 19, 2018 |
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Nov 19, 2018 16:43
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AndyElusive posted:Oops looks like I walked into a Facebook Doctor Who discussion instead of a dead gay internet forums thread. LOL ikr. Stop strawmanning dr who into your own personal morality vehicle, nerds, she isn't a magic space alien fixit for your dumb society. It can kill innocent characters in a hamfisted attempt at drama, its not the Sun Makers with an evil space weevil to blame.
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Nov 19, 2018 16:46
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Why didn't the system do more to stop Charlie's plan? It clearly knew about the bubble wrap bombs, given that it killed Kira with them to make a point. If it was capable of that, why was it not capable of stopping Charlie? Sending a help message to the Doctor seems a bit desperate when a simpler solution would be a full system shutdown to prevent any of the boxes from being teleported out.
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Nov 19, 2018 17:01
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I've been lazy about keeping up with the new series and haven't really watched since the second episode, but if they actually did an episode that had the subtext of "capitalism is great and workers should always just accept their lot" then yeah I'll keep on keeping on.
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Nov 19, 2018 17:04
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MrL_JaKiri posted:
I mean, labor concerns with regard to automation are as old as the industrial era, and in the dot com tech sector for at least a decade. A lot of it has been directed more at start-up culture than the big guys like Amazon and Google, but there are bits of that in this episode with "Head of People" and referring to people as "organics." The dystopian set up does such a good job of neatly assembling all of the mixed horrors of worker's rights across various industries that the "Oh-ho! Your expectations were wrong, it is the worker who was the terrorist!" twist is actually even worse. Astroman posted:
Yeah, sure, Astroman. Next time visit Skaro, they should surprise us by revealing that one of the rebels is a bad guy because of how extreme he was, when all the Kaleds wanted to do was racially cleanse their planet. ewe2 posted:LOL ikr. Stop strawmanning dr who into your own personal morality vehicle, nerds, she isn't a magic space alien fixit for your dumb society. It can kill innocent characters in a hamfisted attempt at drama, its not the Sun Makers with an evil space weevil to blame. You do not understand the term "strawmanning," nor do you seem to have any inkling of the history of Doctor Who as fiction.
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Nov 19, 2018 17:06
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Slowpoke! posted:Why didn't the system do more to stop Charlie's plan? It clearly knew about the bubble wrap bombs, given that it killed Kira with them to make a point. If it was capable of that, why was it not capable of stopping Charlie? Sending a help message to the Doctor seems a bit desperate when a simpler solution would be a full system shutdown to prevent any of the boxes from being teleported out. To some degree he was hacking and futzing with the system. The system was trying to skirt the edges to counter him it seems like.
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Nov 19, 2018 17:09
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I'm impressed that the tonal swing from sinister disappearances to "killer bubble wrap lol" is somehow the least confused part of the episode.
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Nov 19, 2018 17:12
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I hope Thickie Holden can recover from this.Teek posted:To some degree he was hacking and futzing with the system. The system was trying to skirt the edges to counter him it seems like. D'ya reckon that's why the Doctor was originally assigned to maintenance? The system's gotta be aware of Time Lords if it was delivering to either the TARDIS or the Doctor's biometrics. It scans her two hearts, figures out that its call for help has been received, and sets her to where she's most likely to see Charlie's bits and bobs of impending terrorism. ...whoops.
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Nov 19, 2018 17:19
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In hindsight it certainly seems that way.
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Nov 19, 2018 17:20
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Teek posted:To some degree he was hacking and futzing with the system. The system was trying to skirt the edges to counter him it seems like. Just the fact that the computer system is liable to murder its organic subordinates is deeply troubling. That it'll kill in order to prove a point makes it a straight up villain. Beyond anything strictly political -- though I'm deeply troubled by the episode's implication that capitalist systems are perfect objects that need to be protected from their human subjects -- I feel like this doesn't make an awful lot of sense for the characters to passively accept. I'm also at a loss that the guy who wrote this -- who's clearly a massive Who fan -- could somehow manage to reference both The Greatest Show In The Galaxy and The Ark In Space and yet still end up writing a script in which it turns that being subject to homicidal consumers is actually kinda fine. brb writing my Big Finish spec script sequel, "KABOOM".
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Nov 19, 2018 17:25
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Astroman, watching the Tennant Cyberman two-parter: A good twist would be if Ricky's Scooby Gang were the extremist bad guys, and the Cybermen, for all their looking scary, were right to convert everyone into emotionless robots. Would really challenge Ten's pre-conceived assumptions about what's right, a real learning opportunity, something we could all experience together with him as an audience.Open Source Idiom posted:
Also, The Unicorn and the Wasp! Some of that might be Chibnall editing stuff in, though.
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Nov 19, 2018 17:29
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I just saw it as a rather clumsy warning about the direction automation could take society and the problems it could cause. The way they painted the terrorist guy in a sympathetic light was really weird, killing thousands of innocent people seems like a bad thing.
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Nov 19, 2018 17:40
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Slowpoke! posted:Why didn't the system do more to stop Charlie's plan? It clearly knew about the bubble wrap bombs, given that it killed Kira with them to make a point. If it was capable of that, why was it not capable of stopping Charlie? Sending a help message to the Doctor seems a bit desperate when a simpler solution would be a full system shutdown to prevent any of the boxes from being teleported out. I assume that's what it was trying to do with the power failures, but Charlie kept overriding it.
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Nov 19, 2018 17:42
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Bicyclops posted:You do not understand the term "strawmanning," nor do you seem to have any inkling of the history of Doctor Who as fiction. Oh no my evil plan is undone 
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Nov 19, 2018 17:49
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Bicyclops posted:Also, The Unicorn and the Wasp! Some of that might be Chibnall editing stuff in, though. I mean, The Unicorn and The Wasp isn't strictly about the dangers of being exhausted and consumed by another being, but yeah. Chibnall seems to be avoiding continuity references though. I think the only stories with them in this season have had another writer credited.
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Nov 19, 2018 17:51
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Clearly all of this is leading up to Ryan, Graham, and Yaz leading a mutiny against the Doctor's liberal white feminist approach to time travel
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Nov 19, 2018 18:21
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J33uk posted:Wait are we not doing the thing from the first tranche of episodes where we just assume that the obvious plot holes will be followed up on because of course they wouldn't write something so loose and lovely? The more I reflect on it, I remain really angry about the whole Amazon isn't really the villain twist, but I'm more pissed at what must have been going through the writers heads as they decided to have a good guy kill off the most pitiful woman with the cruelest joke for basically no reason. It just feels bad.
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Nov 19, 2018 18:26
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ewe2 posted:Oh no my evil plan is undone You're doing some hard work trying to be more obnoxious with a one-liner and the all ears emoticon, but you're not going to top using the word "strawmanning" as a way to describe the interpretation or criticism of media, a clear sign that you have absorbed all of your thinking about arguments by context on the internet and that you use logical fallacies as some kind of weird meme instead of ever spending the five minutes it would take to learn what terms actually mean before uttering them.
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Nov 19, 2018 18:30
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Mameluke posted:Clearly all of this is leading up to Ryan, Graham, and Yaz leading a mutiny against the Doctor's liberal white feminist approach to time travel Neoliberal, more like
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Nov 19, 2018 18:53
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corn in the bible posted:Neoliberal, more like The 13th Doctor is actually Hillary Clinton 
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Nov 19, 2018 18:56
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Revelation of the Daleks doesn't stop being great because the Doctor brainfarts at the end and leaves Lilt and Takis in charge of Tranquil ReposeNecrothatcher posted:But like, why on earth would you tell this story now, in this economic climate? this just in: not everybody sees the world in exactly the same way you do
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Nov 19, 2018 19:05
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Trin Tragula posted:
Ah, yes, the "grown ups see that people have different political viewpoints" defense of a morally reprehensible episode, also known as the Doctor Who Astroman defense.
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Nov 19, 2018 19:08
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So I'm SUPER far behind on Who right now, know very little about how it's fairing First two episodes were fine, refreshing Rosa Parks episode I kind of think I hate? Like a lot? Like a loooooot? The scene in the alley between the two companions was the most genuine thing in the whole episode. Otherwise you have something that basically amounts to "We're going to pat ourselves on the back SUPER HARD" paired with "The only racism to really worry about are the SUPER CARTOON RACISTS" It both ignores the fact that the day, the time, did not matter. What mattered was the act, which had happened before to lesser degrees, and would absolutely happen after. The villain's entire plan was just stupid and kind of distracting. The fact that the Doctor and crew had to be on the bus to make things happen was mildly insulting, mostly because of the one guy's reaction "I don't want to be here!" And seriously what the gently caress was up with literally every single character from the past being portrayed as SUPER CARTOON RACIST? Like, one or two, sure. But that waitress shouldn't have been. She should have been presented as just a normal person more annoyed at the group for not being able to read a simple goddamn sign and making her job that much harder than it already is as an underpaid woman working in Alabama, instead of jumping straight on the cartoonish racism train too. All that does is make people who don't actually care about the message go "Well see how much better WE are now? We're NOTHING like they were" Also Rosa Parks getting the super inspiring astronauts on the moon music every loving time she does anything made me real annoyed within the first five minutes. Though honestly mostly I was annoyed with the episode than anything, it had good ideas it was just incompetent as gently caress. Until the goddamn pop song started blaring triumphantly at the WORST time they could have shoved it in, and then they decided to play the episode out on it too Just, gently caress you episode
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Nov 19, 2018 19:09
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docbeard posted:I assume that's what it was trying to do with the power failures, but Charlie kept overriding it. The power failures were Charlie redirecting power for the mass teleport he was planning on doing. As mentioned earlier, Charlie used his unrestricted access to basically prevent the system from being able to communicate what he was doing. We're left to assume he couldn't make any fundamental changes to the interior workings of the System itself, but was able to do enough to cover his tracks. It was only able to get a message out to the Doctor via the packing receipts because it was the one place in the warehouse that Charlie didn't have access to, and the Doctor was only able to track down what was going on once she arrived by accessing the original version of the operating system, which allowed the current System a workaround from Charlie's hacks. A lot of this goes unsaid but is present either in context or by assumption. On the one hand I like that the show doesn't always hold our hands like it did in the RTD and Moffat eras (whooshing sound effects and flashbacks to things that happened 3 minutes ago) but it's pretty clear from this episode in particular and the season as a whole that too much is being left open to interpretation, and the writing isn't tight enough to prevent some perfectly valid but pretty hosed up interpretations to be made that (I would hope) were not the intent of the writer.
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Nov 19, 2018 19:17
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Eh, I know Super Cartoon Racists are often used as an excuse not to examine the more subtle everyday racism that we face, but the current political climate seems like a good time to deal with actual, literal white supremacists (an elected official, yesterday, told a black woman he was a part of the "master race"), and they're in 50s Alabama - the more overt and forceful form of racism really was that prevalent. Plus, as you mention, there is that really genuine conversation in the alleyway that contextualizes things and acknowledges that there are still problems, they're just different.
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Nov 19, 2018 19:20
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The thing is, it robs the episode of any power when it's that clear cut. It just makes the whole thing, coupled with how Rosa is presented and that entire tone deaf ending, come off as the most obnoxious back patting ever for being so much more progressive than 1950s Alabama. Never mind the fact that even in Alabama in the 50s, you didn't have some one loudly threaten to LYNCH ANOTHER PERSON for the crime of trying to return something. Not publically anyways. By that point the KKK had lost a lot of their power, and racism, unless you were out in the sticks which this very much wasn't, was kept more civilized. Their racism was the polite kind of racism, not the shouting about hanging you sort. You know, the kind of racism that the episode really SHOULD have been looking at, because it was the kind that Rosa Parks and all of the movement were actually fighting against. The polite, civilized, societal racism that pervaded 90% of the country. Yet every single white character we meet in the episode isn't just racist, they're just waiting for a chance to blow up at a black person. Also people in Alabama knew the difference between what Mexicans and Indian people looked like. That was just a baffling joke. Alabama people ABSOLUTELY knew what Mexican people looked like. (Because they would beat them or worse, is the joke) They had such an opportunity with this episode, that they absolutely squandered. I'm still only mostly annoyed with it than anything, but goddamn if that pop song isn't going to stick out in my head as just the dumbest thing
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Nov 19, 2018 19:29
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Say what you will about the current series...but at least the episodes are better than Nekromanteia That's where I'm at in my big finish main range-listen through and...wow is that story hot garbage
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Nov 19, 2018 19:39
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SiKboy posted:It wasnt all the bubblewrap, just the packages which were being held back. If it was in ones or twos word would get out quickly and no one would accept their kerblam delivery, but if all the contaminated packages were sent out at the same time, via teleportation, then loads of people would be killed instead of just a few. What was with the final shot being all, "Oooooh, scary bubble wrap can blow up!" when it was just the original package?
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Nov 19, 2018 19:39
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jivjov posted:Say what you will about the current series...but at least the episodes are better than Nekromanteia Jubilee is super good though so it's a mixed bag
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Nov 19, 2018 19:41
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corn in the bible posted:Jubilee is super good though so it's a mixed bag Yeah, that was great. I had heard ahead of time that it was "the story that became Dalek on TV"...but was pleasantly surprised that other than "Captive Dalek" it was really primarily its own story.
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Nov 19, 2018 19:47
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thrawn527 posted:What was with the final shot being all, "Oooooh, scary bubble wrap can blow up!" when it was just the original package? I think that was just a "You might just be scared of this average thing now, kids, because of Doctor Who!" moment a la the ending to Blink.
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Nov 19, 2018 20:00
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Bicyclops posted:I think that was just a "You might just be scared of this average thing now, kids, because of Doctor Who!" moment a la the ending to Blink. If so, it didn't really work for me at all.
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Nov 19, 2018 20:03
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https://twitter.com/bbcdoctorwho/status/1064461116670128129
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Nov 19, 2018 20:13
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Bicyclops posted:morally reprehensible I sure am glad that my perfectly-calibrated Reprehensible-O-Meter (TM) (C) (patent applied for) read a perfect 11* when I switched it on and pointed it at this episode *there are only two points on the readout, 0 and 11
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Nov 19, 2018 20:26
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Beginning to wonder if this season was just taken from leftover Sarah Jane Adventures.
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Nov 19, 2018 20:27
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Trin Tragula posted:I sure am glad that my perfectly-calibrated Reprehensible-O-Meter (TM) (C) (patent applied for) read a perfect 11* when I switched it on and pointed it at this episode Actually, you will find that the majority of people are actually discussing levels upon which the episode succeeded and failed, in particular with Kerblam! (and Rosa - on this very page!). People who think it works or that it doesn't, when both episodes are political, use words and paragraphs to describe portions of the episode that were good or bad, but as is virtually always the case, the "You people on the outrage brigade only have two settings" complainers are, ironically, the ones who only go to 0 or 11. The two settings are "Reasonable adults disagree on politics, but I'm not willing to discuss the details, at all, stop thinking that you're right all the time" or "That episode was too preachy."
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Nov 19, 2018 20:36
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Oh boy oh boy oh boy I get to be That One Guy Who Likes a Bad Episode 
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Nov 19, 2018 21:17
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jivjov posted:Say what you will about the current series...but at least the episodes are better than Nekromanteia Oh my loving God I hate that piece of poo poo. It may be the worst Big Finish story ever written. At least Minuet in Hell is kind of endearing in how awful it is. Nekromanteia is hideous, though Creed of the Kromon has one scene in particular that gives it a run for its money in the skeevy stakes.
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Nov 19, 2018 21:17
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Chokes McGee posted:Oh boy oh boy oh boy I get to be That One Guy Who Likes a Bad Episode Lots of people really liked this episode! They posted about it in this thread! I was one of them! You know, it has been awhile since we've had a good old fashioned,"How come EVERYBODY hates/loves this episode?" thing happen. Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not having a go at you at all Chokes, I'm just remembering that this used to be a pretty common occurrence.
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Nov 19, 2018 21:19
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