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I've given up on trying to decide if Nekromanteia or Creed of the Kromon is worse. They're both just so horribly bad, it's not even worth choosing. Nothing else Big Finish has done even comes close for me, which is saying something, because Big Finish's quality is hugely variable!
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Nov 19, 2018 21:23
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Bicyclops posted:You're doing some hard work trying to be more obnoxious with a one-liner and the all ears emoticon, but you're not going to top using the word "strawmanning" as a way to describe the interpretation or criticism of media, a clear sign that you have absorbed all of your thinking about arguments by context on the internet and that you use logical fallacies as some kind of weird meme instead of ever spending the five minutes it would take to learn what terms actually mean before uttering them. Curses, foiled again by an internet hero. Whatever shall I do, LOL. Bicyclops posted:Actually, you will find that the majority of people are actually discussing levels upon which the episode succeeded and failed, in particular with Kerblam! (and Rosa - on this very page!). People who think it works or that it doesn't, when both episodes are political, use words and paragraphs to describe portions of the episode that were good or bad, but as is virtually always the case, the "You people on the outrage brigade only have two settings" complainers are, ironically, the ones who only go to 0 or 11. The two settings are "Reasonable adults disagree on politics, but I'm not willing to discuss the details, at all, stop thinking that you're right all the time" or "That episode was too preachy." I think you'll find that no one cares how you think nerd discussions about scifi entertainment should be organised, and you might want to take a deep breath and wonder why it makes you so mad.
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Nov 19, 2018 21:26
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You accidentally said "u mad bro?" three times instead of just the once.
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Nov 19, 2018 21:28
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Ok, I’ve got bad news.  I honestly haven’t had and still currently don’t have time to run the Secret Santa this year. I’ve got a lot going on at the moment (I’ve literally just moved home to a different country, and I’ve got a big work project that’s overdue and I’m rushing to finish ASAP). If someone else wants to throw it together in the remaining time, they are absolutely free to do so, and I will offer any assistance I can. PMs are open if need be.
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Nov 19, 2018 21:29
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The_Doctor posted:Ok, I’ve got bad news. Thank you for all the organizing you've done on this every year. I don't think anyone will begrudge you a break. Good luck with the move and with work! 
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Nov 19, 2018 21:33
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Jerusalem posted:Lots of people really liked this episode! They posted about it in this thread! I was one of them! Nah no sweat. I thought this was my Twin Dilemma moment though 
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Nov 19, 2018 21:34
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One day giant slugs will reappear in Who and your time to shine will come 
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Nov 19, 2018 21:39
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Just watched the episode and I enjoyed most of it. Not quite sure about the ending but otherwise enjoyed it. Part of the way though I hoped that the system was crying out for help because the cybermen had taken over.
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Nov 19, 2018 22:24
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Yeah, I think the more cliche Doctor Who-ish twist to that episode would have the reveal either be the cybermen or that the system was turning employees into robots to cover some bottom line the company set or something.
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Nov 19, 2018 22:28
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Chokes McGee posted:Oh boy oh boy oh boy I get to be That One Guy Who Likes a Bad Episode Sorry, you're not alone. I'm right there with you. This episode had me at the fez all the way until the strange look Graham gave the bubble wrap at the end.
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Nov 19, 2018 22:31
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Is there anything to this rumour that both Chibnall and Whitaker are not coming back? Something to do with BBC wanted another season next year and Chibnall saying he won't be able to do a full series until 2020.
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Nov 19, 2018 22:36
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DrVenkman posted:Is there anything to this rumour that both Chibnall and Whitaker are not coming back? Something to do with BBC wanted another season next year and Chibnall saying he won't be able to do a full series until 2020. Total nonsense based on nothing but an out of context Chibnall quote from years ago.
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Nov 19, 2018 22:38
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docbeard posted:The more I think about it, the more I'd really like to see the evolution of this episode, because there are a lot of half-developed themes that are a bit more subversive than we got, and I'm curious whether it's a case of a very subversive first draft that was toned down, or a bit of patchwork after the fact. You know, I'm actually OK with the show condemning BOTH of the choices you mentioned. The mass murderer (he did kill at least half a dozen people) wasn't right about everything, and the corporation was deeply flawed in multiple ways. Also, robots are OK, mostly, and automation in itself isn't evil, but its effects can do a lot of damage and it's not clear that rolling back on automation to provide jobs for human beings is the right solution. But it's not clear that there's another solution, either. All we have are small, incremental improvements to pit against things getting worse. I loved Oxygen, but while it offers an effective "take that" to a terrible corporation and suggests massive reforms coming out of that, we've seen reforms and regulations passed and then rolled back before. By the 51st century, clockwork robots are using human body parts as replacements for spaceship components. I'm guessing a decent union would have argued against that kind of programming. Oxygen ends with a specific problem being solved but the general problem remaining. (To the point that Davros is selling food made from human corpses in the later future.) And honestly, while it would have helped to make clear at the end that this wasn't an ideal solution (Ryan commenting on the two weeks pay for a month off, say), I'm not sure that the ending doesn't actually do that by again giving us reference to one of the dead characters, both commemorating him and reasserting that his connection with his daughter matters. In the end, yes to developmental problems. This would probably have worked well as a 90 minute episode, and one where the System got to communicate directly at some point. Although at some stage that threatens to look like Smile, and nobody especially wants that. Some things were pretty clear, though: these jobs aren't especially humane; the bosses are out of touch even if they are somewhat well meaning; employees are scared to even discuss the word "union," which I don't think is meant to play as a positive and which struck me as a clear (if brief) critique; even the "reformed" corporation still sucks, it just sucks less than before. It's ironic that Chibnall takes it on the chin (and appropriately) for on the nose, too obvious messaging, while this episode mostly goes with implicit and subtextual critique, before bobbling the brief obvious messaging at the end. I guess somebody is going to complain about anything. Cleretic posted:2. Add a Space Jeff Bezos. Something that lightens the image of Kerblam perhaps more than it should is that every face we see of it is a friendly one; the Head of People, the warehouse manager, the actual workers, even the system itself, all genuinely good people we're supposed to like even if they're cogs in a machine we're supposed to hate. Even Charlie wasn't actually a bad person, it's clear there's sympathy for his aims if not his goals from earlier in the episode, the problem is that because he's the only one that ever stands in opposition he gets off even worse. Add a Space Jeff Bezos at the top, who's just mad at all this loss of profit with no regard for anything or anybody else, to stand in opposition to all of this and it starts to go down easier. He only needs one scene to establish himself--hell, he might not even need that, just some mentions in a few scenes would probably be enough. I'm not sure they had the time, but if they had, adding the CEO as a returning character from the Ghost Monument (any of the three, though making it be Angstrom would be really interesting) could have made for an interesting twist. Rochallor posted:But that's the problem: it's all passive. Nobody does things to make progress happen. Things just get better. So you don't have to do anything. Just sit by and society will eventually marginally improve. We can leave this megacorporation as is because now they're going to treat their wage slaves more like wage indentured servants, and even hire more of them! What a triumph! How many episodes of the show pre-Chibnall show things that way? There's some Troughton-era stories, sure, although there's also the Dominators. Happiness Patrol claims that you can talk snipers out of shooting people and that the jackbooted thugs will all switch sides bloodlessly, and that's about as revolutionary as the show gets. Even Oxygen can only tell us that social progress occurs, it can't show us, and does it matter if things get bad again later on? You can punch Hitler but you can't stop the Holocaust. I thought the prevailing complaint about Rosa was that it presented a woman's single act of defiance as pivotal in effecting revolutionary social change, within the context of her wider engagement with a movement. The BBC can't afford to dramatize the March on Montgomery, and honestly I fear that we'd get another Daleks in Manhattan if it tried. This series seems to be arguing that it takes single acts of courage, whether it be Rosa's or Prem's (or Grace's?), to change things, but that those single acts need to be coupled with broader movements across society to make a systemic difference. There's a clear argument being made across the current series about social progress. You can hate the argument (and some ITT seem to), but it's sophisticated compared with evil being defeated by the world's faith in Doctor Jesus Who. Or the show not even addressing the issue.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:00
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Jerusalem posted:Oh my loving God I hate that piece of poo poo. It may be the worst Big Finish story ever written. At least Minuet in Hell is kind of endearing in how awful it is. Nekromanteia is hideous, though Creed of the Kromon has one scene in particular that gives it a run for its money in the skeevy stakes. Yeah....I'm finishing it up for completions' sake more than anything else. Peri being a naked sacrifice and Erimem getting beaten and (?)raped was super disgusting.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:11
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jivjov posted:Erimem getting beaten and (?)raped was super disgusting. An episode cliffhanger is,"I'm going to rape Erimem!" and then they spend like the first 3 minutes of the next episode with one character saying how disgusting what the would-be rapist did to Erimem was, before he reveals the "happy" news that nah he just beat the utter poo poo out of her when she made it too difficult for him to rape her. That character ends up getting the happiest ending too! Oh my God that story is so loving awful. Edit: On the plus side, I believe it was this story(?) where Peter Davison told Big Finish that if they ever let that guy write a story again he'd quit?
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Nov 19, 2018 23:16
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Jerusalem posted:Edit: On the plus side, I believe it was this story(?) where Peter Davison told Big Finish that if they ever let that guy write a story again he'd quit? It is apparently the only BF he's written, which is good
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Nov 19, 2018 23:21
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things that are bad: making disparaging 'robophobic' comments. things that. are ok: causing thousands of robots to blow themselves up.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:36
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Jerusalem posted:An episode cliffhanger is,"I'm going to rape Erimem!" and then they spend like the first 3 minutes of the next episode with one character saying how disgusting what the would-be rapist did to Erimem was, before he reveals the "happy" news that nah he just beat the utter poo poo out of her when she made it too difficult for him to rape her. Wait, is this the one where the Doctor gets his head chopped off and comes back to life later because ~reasons~
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Nov 19, 2018 23:55
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Narsham posted:How many episodes of the show pre-Chibnall show things that way? There's some Troughton-era stories, sure, although there's also the Dominators. Happiness Patrol claims that you can talk snipers out of shooting people and that the jackbooted thugs will all switch sides bloodlessly, and that's about as revolutionary as the show gets. Even Oxygen can only tell us that social progress occurs, it can't show us, and does it matter if things get bad again later on? You can punch Hitler but you can't stop the Holocaust. The Sun Makers
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Nov 19, 2018 23:56
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Chokes McGee posted:Wait, is this the one where the Doctor gets his head chopped off and comes back to life later because ~reasons~ The very same
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Nov 20, 2018 00:24
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Yep, plus it gets overlooked because of the horrific attempted rape/successful savage beating, but:jivjov posted:Peri being a naked sacrifice This description really doesn't do justice to it, which is this tediously long scene of a guy who has infiltrated the planet lovingly describing into his audio recorder how Peri is nude and applying various oils and lotions to her naked body etc etc. That part aside, Creed of the Kromon feels like it was written as somebody's wank/fetish material, while Nekromanteia feels like it was written by somebody who has an incredibly hosed up idea of what "mature/adult" stories are. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Nov 20, 2018 |
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Nov 20, 2018 00:30
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Narsham posted:How many episodes of the show pre-Chibnall show things that way? There's some Troughton-era stories, sure, although there's also the Dominators. Happiness Patrol claims that you can talk snipers out of shooting people and that the jackbooted thugs will all switch sides bloodlessly, and that's about as revolutionary as the show gets. Even Oxygen can only tell us that social progress occurs, it can't show us, and does it matter if things get bad again later on? You can punch Hitler but you can't stop the Holocaust. Another one is The Sun Makers, where humans took orders and implemented a murderous corporate regime from a piece of seaweed masquerading as a humanoid. The revolutionarys are ineffective working-class brutes who clearly need the help of their betters with the Doctor as catalyst to action. Their bloody revolution is allowed to succeed just in time for the Doctor to unmask the seaweed and they all lived happily ever after. The absolute cynicism of this tale along with a barely-concealed class snobbery is difficult to top but at least for once Leela got a good storyline. Nevertheless, the strong hint that humanity was doomed without the Doctor's help lingers over the plot. The processes of control, bureaucratic as well as technological are no less awful for being limited to the imagination of the 1970s than those of the current crop, so in that sense nothing has changed except the props and the cultural references. It doesn't bother with social progress because it doesn't believe in the concept. But at least the revolution came, right? Compared to that, this episode (and era) of Who is a massive improvement, despite the wonky plot and the pointless death, because it champions ordinary people, encourages social progress, and refuses to give pat solutions.
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Nov 20, 2018 01:03
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ewe2 posted:Another one is The Sun Makers, where humans took orders and implemented a murderous corporate regime from a piece of seaweed masquerading as a humanoid. The revolutionarys are ineffective working-class brutes who clearly need the help of their betters with the Doctor as catalyst to action. Their bloody revolution is allowed to succeed just in time for the Doctor to unmask the seaweed and they all lived happily ever after. It's kind of an accidental pro-revolution story, given it's mostly about how Bob Holmes hated the Inland Revenue.
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Nov 20, 2018 01:19
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seizure later posted:Presumably this was the system assigning the Doctor the job that would most closely get her to the problem (Charlie) and she screwed it up by changing her assignment. Oh yeah that makes sense. I just took it that Space Amazon analyzed this woman with two hearts, an ectospleen, and who knows what else and went "ehhhh lets give her a mop and bucket" Of course that also makes you wonder why the system didn't go "hey wait a tick why is the Doctor NOT getting closer to this wingnut Charlie? She's WHERE?" but I can maybe handwave it as the system is sentient but not THAT sentient.
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Nov 20, 2018 01:33
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MrL_JaKiri posted:It's kind of an accidental pro-revolution story, given it's mostly about how Bob Holmes hated the Inland Revenue. I've not watched that story but now I might now check out this tale where I presume a ball of seaweed is collecting taxes and doing bureaucracy.
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Nov 20, 2018 01:34
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Flight Bisque posted:Oh yeah that makes sense. I just took it that Space Amazon analyzed this woman with two hearts, an ectospleen, and who knows what else and went "ehhhh lets give her a mop and bucket" If we assume the system tracks them by their ankle bands it probably just thinks Graham is the Doctor.
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Nov 20, 2018 01:44
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Stabbatical posted:I've not watched that story but now I might now check out this tale where I presume a ball of seaweed is collecting taxes and doing bureaucracy. It's not very good (which is bizarre since it is Robert Holmes) but it's kind of fun just from the POV that Robert Holmes was so angry at the tax department that he sat down and wrote a multi-part science fiction story for Doctor Who for the primary purpose of saying,"Yo, gently caress the tax department  "
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Nov 20, 2018 02:35
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I will agree with everyone who was saying it was pretty bad that the Doctor didn't call out the computer for killing Kiera. I mean, you can say "well the computer is a developing intelligence and non human and it's morality will be 'off'" but the Doctor still shouldn't have let that go without at least a lecture.Strom Cuzewon posted:I'm impressed that the tonal swing from sinister disappearances to "killer bubble wrap lol" is somehow the least confused part of the episode. Was I the only one who, when the bubble wrap reveal came on, thought: "AUTONS?!"  Trin Tragula posted:this just in: not everybody sees the world in exactly the same way you do Yes, but those people are Objectively Wrong, and
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Nov 20, 2018 02:42
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Astroman posted:Was I the only one who, when the bubble wrap reveal came on, thought: "AUTONS?!" I thought The Ark in Space 
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Nov 20, 2018 02:54
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Honestly, my critical thinking on old references was shot after the Doctor mebtioned a man named Roger Wilco, who given the surrounding scene (and honestly, parts of the episode aesthetic) might have been Space Quest's Roger Wilco?
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Nov 20, 2018 03:17
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The interior of this TARDIS is growing on me hard. I don't think anything will ever top Twelve's bookcase, chalkboards, and guitars blue, brown and orange one, though.     
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Nov 20, 2018 04:05
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jivjov posted:The very same Yeah ok I remember this one and it was not good “The Doctor is really for reals dead and they’re eating his severed head” is not something that should be used as a cliffhanger, let alone the one for episode 2 Especially not for Five
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Nov 20, 2018 04:12
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Yeah they lit it up far better than they did on the reveal and that helps, though I still am underwhelmed by it. I still laugh when I think about 11 wandering about in the console one night inbetween distinct adventures with Clara and River and deciding,"I'll get the Kerblam! Man to bring me a new Fez!" and then complete forgetting about it for roughly 800 years.
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Nov 20, 2018 04:15
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Jerusalem posted:Yeah they lit it up far better than they did on the reveal and that helps, though I still am underwhelmed by it. Fish stick benders are nothing to laugh at. You take it and it’s suddenly five hours later and you find out you bought a Type 94
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Nov 20, 2018 04:29
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Just thinking about 12 doing a lecture and the loving Kerblam! Man teleports in and hands him a Fez, and he's all,"The gently caress is this?" 
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Nov 20, 2018 04:33
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Terry Grunthouse posted:The interior of this TARDIS is growing on me hard. I don't think anything will ever top Twelve's bookcase, chalkboards, and guitars blue, brown and orange one, though. Going all in on the blue/orange is probably the worst thing about it, right after the salt lamp crystal aesthetic
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Nov 20, 2018 04:51
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Jerusalem posted:Yeah they lit it up far better than they did on the reveal and that helps, though I still am underwhelmed by it. He probably ordered it right after he rebooted the universe. And they need to delete the pillars from the Tardis set, they just look plastic and fake.
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Nov 20, 2018 04:55
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howe_sam posted:He probably ordered it right after he rebooted the universe. 11: I ordered a new fez from the Kerblam! Man!  Amy: Who is that? 11: He's... oh he's wonderful Amy! You wouldn't believe it! Amy: You don't know who the Kerblam! Man is, do you? 11: ..... Amy: You just liked the sound of the name, didn't you? 11: 
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Nov 20, 2018 05:13
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Well, I'll give them props for doing one thing right in this episode. Given the number of times the phrase "Kerblam runs on PEOPLE", I was fully expecting a Matrix type reveal. You know - people in some skiffy type hamster wheel in the basement. Of course, given the ending we did get, I'm kinda sorry we didn't get hamster wheels. They sure do love killing random nice characters for no reason other than "because". (you can write the last two stories with alternate endings that don't involve killing off characters, just sayin...). The other thing that's REALLY been bothering me in the past few episodes is Jodie's damned goofy expressions - especially the peering with the teeth one. It's been bugging me because I KNOW I've seen it somewhere before... And in the last (Pakistan) episode, it hit me. The new Doctor is Earnest P. Whorrel, "Hey Vern, know what I mean?". I know it's supposed to be all quirky and forgetful and new-ish, but it's wearing thin. At least from now on every time she dons that stupid goofy espression, I'm just going to tell the TV, "Hey Vern, know what I mean?". Sure thing, Earnest. Now go save Christmas. (with your special helper elms too!).
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Nov 20, 2018 06:56
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Going all in on the blue/orange is probably the worst thing about it, right after the salt lamp crystal aesthetic It's good actually. The contrasting colors are nice. But like Terry Grunthouse just mentioned nothing tops 12's TARDIS interior. It took the great things about 11's late stage interior and made it better.
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Nov 20, 2018 07:02
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