Milhist Thread Part The IVth: sir, my ass is flowing like Sun Tzu's army

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Milhist Thread Part The IVth: sir, my ass is flowing like Sun Tzu's army

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Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

EvilMerlin posted:

The BOne can do refueling too...

I thought B-1s flew out of Diego Garcia and B-52s from Guam or CONUS for Sandblaster II missions.

# ? Nov 27, 2018 19:08

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# ? May 20, 2024 15:11

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

bewbies posted:

The PLA isn't really trying to compete with the US -- or any other major nuclear power -- when it comes to their nuclear missile force. Their force is maintained strictly as a countervalue strike capability. That's it. The reason they've stuck with road-mobile systems was 1) because all of their systems prior to the 90s were liquid fueled, which means that silos were extremely difficult to use, which in turn heavily influenced their current strategy and doctrine and 2) they're unconcerned with having a first strike capability, or a rapid counterforce capability. If you want those things, you have to have hair-trigger systems, like silo-based sold fuel missiles and SLBMs. If you don't need them, a non-ready-to-fire solution (ie, road mobile missiles in bunkers) works just as well, and is much cheaper. The PLARF also wants to be able to continue to develop and operate longer range conventional missiles, which they would not be able to do if they maintained a ready nuclear force.

All the PLARF needs to be able to do with its ICBMs is shoot them after the PRC is attacked. They're pretty unconcerned with counterforce efforts, and rightly so - the missiles and warheads are stored in more or less impenetrable facilities, and no air or missile strike is going to shut down a TEL before it gets its shot off, especially if it is a solid fuel missile.

Adding to this, it's not the US or even Russia that China is most concerned with as a potential enemy. India is their biggest worry, and India's military and nuclear capabilities are quite a bit different from that of the US.

# ? Nov 27, 2018 19:10

Geisladisk: Sep 15, 2007

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

Why do the Marines always get the old equipment?

This isn't even specific to the US; The Finnish Marines also have ancient gear compared to the Army.

When Boatlords get together to decide how to spend their big pile of money, Boat Stuff is on top of the priority list. Not Boat Stuff gets the scraps.

# ? Nov 27, 2018 19:36

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Geisladisk posted:

Boatlords

sir you will treat the British Government with RESPECT

# ? Nov 27, 2018 19:44

EvilMerlin: Apr 10, 2018; Meh.

Give it a try...

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

I thought B-1s flew out of Diego Garcia and B-52s from Guam or CONUS for Sandblaster II missions.

Both can fly out of anywhere with big enough runways technically...

# ? Nov 27, 2018 19:49

EvilMerlin: Apr 10, 2018; Meh.

Give it a try...

Fangz posted:

They were dumb and expensive

Expensive? Sure. Dumb? The Peacekeeper was a drat fine weapons system.

The Midgetman would have been inexpensive compared to the Peacekeeper of course.

# ? Nov 27, 2018 19:53

Stairmaster: Jun 8, 2012

Fangz posted:

I dunno why you are praising the Soviet strategy of developing lots and lots of new expensive strategic weapons given it's kiiinda part of why they lost the Cold War......?

Pot calling the kettle black here imo

# ? Nov 27, 2018 19:54

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

HEY GUNS posted:

sir you will treat the British Government with RESPECT

Why? The British Government itself never has.

# ? Nov 27, 2018 19:57

EvilMerlin: Apr 10, 2018; Meh.

Give it a try...

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Why? The British Government itself never has.

Sniff... sniff... I smell smoke and fire...

# ? Nov 27, 2018 19:58

FrangibleCover: Jan 23, 2018; Nothing going on in my quiet corner of the Pacific.

This is the life. I'm just lying here in my hammock in Townsville, sipping a G&T.

HEY GUNS posted:

sir you will treat the British Government with RESPECT

Weirdly the Royal Marines actually have decent kit. They're basically equipped like any Army light infantry unit except they also get the latest in mad Swedish snotrac type things to carry them around Norway. Obviously they don't get access to actual tanks but these days neither does anyone else.

The Navy can't afford any boats but the ~~Navyarmy~~ Sea Dragoons are doing alright.

# ? Nov 27, 2018 20:00

Neophyte: Apr 23, 2006; perennially; Taco Defender

The Astutes and UK subs in general are pretty decent IIRC offer not valid in Canada

Good Boat Island?

# ? Nov 27, 2018 20:24

FrangibleCover: Jan 23, 2018; Nothing going on in my quiet corner of the Pacific.

This is the life. I'm just lying here in my hammock in Townsville, sipping a G&T.

That's valid, the Navy can afford boats but not ships, because it spends all of its money on missile boats.

The submarines we sold to Canada were excellent boats and Britain can't be blamed for the Canadian Government doing what it always does and havering on procurement until it's too late and everything breaks and people start dying.

# ? Nov 27, 2018 20:32

Tevery Best: Oct 11, 2013; Hewlo Furriend

EvilMerlin posted:

Solid fuel goes bad. Electronics break down, missiles are designed to fly, not sit in a silo or on a truck. So wear and tear on them is significant.

Also earlier Russian ICBMs were... to put it lightly, bad. They were not reliable (which is why they had a lot of them).

Also to defeat newer anti-missile tech (as stated earlier).

bewbies posted:

With big-ticket items that have a shelf life, you basically have two options: build a new one, or spend a lot of money to extend the service life of the old ones. The US generally prefers the latter, Russia and China have historically preferred the former.

Any noise about being more advanced to defeat ABM systems or whatever is just noise, there isn't an ABM system that has a prayer of stopping any sort of structured ICBM attack, and there won't be for the foreseeable future.

That's the reasoning for building new ones. But why design an entirely new model instead of just building what you already have? What's the real gain?

Fangz posted:

From the Chinese POV the reason for these new ICBMs is pretty simple.

You have the DF5(or DF5A) which can hit the US but needs preparation and so is vulnerable to a first strike.
You have the DF31 which can be launched quickly... but can't hit the US.
You have the DF31A which can be launched quickly and can hit the US (if you launch from the right places, anyway), but has a pretty pathetic throw weight, which is important because the Chinese have only a few missiles.
And finally you have the DF41 which on paper at least solves those issues. Probably has a worst CEP than the Minuteman but who cares about that :P

At least on the China side of things this really isn't about China running forward with a new generation of ICBMs, it's about Chinese belatedly running to get to the starting line.

See, this is for China, this is fine. But the US already has ICBMs with range to hit anywhere on the planet, bases to stage IRBMs and SLBMs and what not, and also the US does not have to worry about a peer ABM, doesn't it? I don't think anybody else ever tried to gain that capability?

# ? Nov 27, 2018 21:08

EvilMerlin: Apr 10, 2018; Meh.

Give it a try...

Tevery Best posted:

That's the reasoning for building new ones. But why design an entirely new model instead of just building what you already have? What's the real gain?

Do you want a computer running a 486?

Do you want to be driving a Model T daily?

But the main reason we (We as in Nations) do it, is one-up-man-ship.

# ? Nov 27, 2018 21:38

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

Tevery Best posted:

That's the reasoning for building new ones. But why design an entirely new model instead of just building what you already have? What's the real gain?

helps feed the military industrial complex

# ? Nov 27, 2018 21:58

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Tevery Best posted:

See, this is for China, this is fine. But the US already has ICBMs with range to hit anywhere on the planet, bases to stage IRBMs and SLBMs and what not, and also the US does not have to worry about a peer ABM, doesn't it? I don't think anybody else ever tried to gain that capability?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABM-1_Galosh

# ? Nov 27, 2018 22:05

bewbies: Sep 23, 2003; Fun Shoe

Tevery Best posted:

That's the reasoning for building new ones. But why design an entirely new model instead of just building what you already have? What's the real gain?

If you're working on a system that is decades old, a lot of times restarting a line to rebuild the same thing costs way, way more than designing a new system with modern components and processes and whatnot. This is particularly true for systems that were designed and built before a lot of the modern electronic components and computer languages were in place.

You see this a lot with repair parts for older operational systems also. Like, you couldn't ask Modern Big Electronics Company to just build you Circuit Card XG1CA15791...not because Circuit Card XG1CA15791 is so enormously complex it is beyond their technical ability, but because they don't have 50 year old subcomponents still in stock. So, you have to build all of the subcomponents from scratch, which in turn makes it into kind of an artisan activity, which in turn makes it hideously expensive. Alternatively you can have Modern Big Electronics Company build a modern emulator of Circuit Card XG1CA15791, like imprinting whatever Circuit Card XG1CA15791 did on some modern chip. This may or may not be cheaper, but it is still going to be hideously expensive. Eventually, your system needs so many hideously expensive copies of Circuit Card XG1CA15791, it becomes economically advantageous to just build a new system, even if the new system isn't a major upgrade over the old system.

bewbies fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Nov 27, 2018

# ? Nov 27, 2018 22:13

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

Tevery Best posted:

That's the reasoning for building new ones. But why design an entirely new model instead of just building what you already have?

You have a design for a computer built 20 years ago.

It's time to build a new computer. What do you do? You can't buy the parts in your existing prints, because nobody makes them anymore.

EvilMerlin posted:

Do you want a computer running a 486?

You're assuming that a 486 is even available.

This comes up all the time in the spaceflight thread. "If NASA's having such problems, why don't they just build a new Saturn V." Well, you can't exactly hop on down to microcenter and pick up core rope memory. Okay, so you keep everything else the same and design a new guidance computer. But you can't just bolt in an iPad where the AGC used to be, you need to design new mounts, which means new stress and vibe analysis. And the sensors the thing uses for its own internal diagnostics and telemetry aren't made anymore either, you need to replace whatever flow sensors, accelerometers, thermocouples, etc. with new ones, and the new ones probably have different power requirements than the old ones. So you need new power supplies, new signal conditioning, new wiring, and since you're doing all that you need whole new suite of EMI testing. At best you'd wind up with something that cosmetically resembles the Apollo V but has all new guts. Oh, and hey, in the decades since the last one there are whole new manufacturing techniques; poo poo on the F-1 engines that was accomplished by a bunch of really skilled craftsmen with stick welders can be built now with additive manufacturing, so if you're redoing all the innards anyway why the heck wouldn't you build a new case to put it all in?

That's not to say that the military doesn't frequently try to reinvent a perfectly good wheel, but there are plenty of reasons that you can't just built a new copy of something you last built decades ago.

# ? Nov 27, 2018 22:15

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

is now the time for me to reveal i used a typewriter into my first year of undergrad

a big cast iron double-entry one

finding ribbon was tough, i'd just about be able to find reels in forgotten corners of office supply stores but the particular spool didn't fit, i'd cut the ribbon off the plastic spool it came on and thread them onto the old steel spool that belonged to the typewriter

# ? Nov 27, 2018 22:16

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

HEY GUNS posted:

is now the time for me to reveal i used a typewriter into my first year of undergrad

a big cast iron double-entry one

finding ribbon was tough, i'd just about be able to find reels in forgotten corners of office supply stores but the particular spool didn't fit, i'd cut the ribbon off the plastic spool it came on and thread them onto the old steel spool that belonged to the typewriter

I hand wrote my essays. :corsair:

And then read them out loud in tutorials to your man Dr Parrott who would then eviscerate me for the rest of the hour :ohdear:

# ? Nov 27, 2018 22:32

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Phanatic posted:

You have a design for a computer built 20 years ago.

It's time to build a new computer. What do you do? You can't buy the parts in your existing prints, because nobody makes them anymore.

Except you can buy the parts for computers, it's just a matter of price. Also there's a lot of drop in replacements available, even for wild custom circuitry, if there was some reason the part must be new instead of new old stock or lightly used.

You picked a terrible analogy, the world's littered with spare parts for computers from 1998.

Reminds me of how the US managed to get one of the countries we tricked into buying F35s to send us some of their older fighters so we could use them to augment our own forces/provide spare parts.

Phanatic posted:

You're assuming that a 486 is even available.

Again tho... it is. There's assloads of them available, and hell, a lot of the stock around is never used parts produced specifically with military or aerospace uses in mind, long after they weren't commercially viable. It's why they were in production all the way to 2007, to say nothing of licensed second source producers still making variants.

fishmech fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Nov 27, 2018

# ? Nov 27, 2018 22:38

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

EvilMerlin posted:

Do you want a computer running a 486?

Do you want to be driving a Model T daily?

But the main reason we (We as in Nations) do it, is one-up-man-ship.

I use a computer system that was developed in 1969...

# ? Nov 27, 2018 23:30

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

https://twitter.com/wellerstein/status/1067593776158388224

https://twitter.com/wellerstein/status/1067594548371734533

You guys ever see Trinity and Beyond

# ? Nov 28, 2018 02:49

Schadenboner: Aug 15, 2011; by Shine

Geisladisk posted:

This isn't even specific to the US; The Finnish Marines also have ancient gear compared to the Army.

When Boatlords get together to decide how to spend their big pile of money, Boat Stuff is on top of the priority list. Not Boat Stuff gets the scraps.

Marines keep driving metal vehicles in salt water and act shocked when no one wants to give them the bestest shiniest?

Not a war-talking-guy like all you guys but that would be my guess?

:shrug:

# ? Nov 28, 2018 03:20

BIG HEADLINE: Jun 13, 2006; "Stand back, Ottawan ruffian, or face my lumens!"

Crosspost from the AvGeek thread (of which I'm sure there's plenty of overlap in here):

Okay, this is both a bump and an update for that Nellis AFB Tour idea I posted about a few weeks back: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3276654&pagenumber=1447&perpage=40#post489634209

For those who aren't interested in this at all, sorry you have to ignore or potentially read a post that doesn't interest or apply to you - you'll never get these 15 seconds of your life back. They're mine now. Also, in his infinite wisdom, Lowtax didn't allow for multiple recipient capability on PMs, and only Platystemon gave me an email address.

As of right now I still only have 10 people (including someone's potential +1 and myself), which isn't enough for me to call Nellis. Ten is small enough for a tour as per their sheet, but plans, lives, and circumstances change between now and September-November of next year, so I'm not comfortable in calling Nellis' PAO until we have at least fifteen (preferably twenty). These tours are also not offered from June 1st to August 31st because "desert" and "summer."

Unfortunately, Nellis does not offer on-base transportation (despite having a motor pool with perfectly good busses visible on Google Maps' satellite view) for tours. I've already contacted and gotten one quote from one bus service who offers those "Airport Shuttle" style motorcoaches, and for eight hours of use (for transportation both to, around, and from the base back to a central spot inside Vegas hopefully convenient to all), it comes to ~$660. This is another reason I really want to get up to ~15-20 people before calling. The coach *holds* 27 people, and since this is *my* stupid idea, I'd be fine paying $150 for my seat on the bus, which would make the cost per person for 14 other goons ~$37/person. This might make some of you balk, but seeing as we *need* to have our own conveyance to get around the base in a group, there's no getting around it.

Obviously, I'm going to shop around - there's got to be a better price out there - I'd like to get that per-person cost down lower to $27-30/person. Obviously, if you had registered interest for this and still find this unpalatable, let me know in PMs.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Nov 28, 2018

# ? Nov 28, 2018 03:49

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; Ultra Carp

BIG HEADLINE posted:

Crosspost from the AvGeek thread (of which I'm sure there's plenty of overlap in here):

Okay, this is both a bump and an update for that Nellis AFB Tour idea I posted about a few weeks back: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3276654&pagenumber=1447&perpage=40#post489634209

For those who aren't interested in this at all, sorry you have to ignore or potentially read a post that doesn't interest or apply to you - you'll never get these 15 seconds of your life back. They're mine now. Also, in his infinite wisdom, Lowtax didn't allow for multiple recipient capability on PMs, and only Platystemon gave me an email address.

As of right now I still only have 10 people (including someone's potential +1 and myself), which isn't enough for me to call Nellis. Ten is small enough for a tour as per their sheet, but plans, lives, and circumstances change between now and September-November of next year, so I'm not comfortable in calling Nellis' PAO until we have at least fifteen (preferably twenty). These tours are also not offered from June 1st to August 31st because "desert" and "summer."

Unfortunately, Nellis does not offer on-base transportation (despite having a motor pool with perfectly good busses visible on Google Maps' satellite view) for tours. I've already contacted and gotten one quote from one bus service who offers those "Airport Shuttle" style motorcoaches, and for eight hours of use (for transportation both to, around, and from the base back to a central spot inside Vegas hopefully convenient to all), it comes to ~$660. This is another reason I really want to get up to ~15-20 people before calling. The coach *holds* 27 people, and since this is *my* stupid idea, I'd be fine paying $150 for my seat on the bus, which would make the cost per person for 14 other goons ~$37/person. This might make some of you balk, but seeing as we *need* to have our own conveyance to get around the base in a group, there's no getting around it.

Obviously, I'm going to shop around - there's got to be a better price out there - I'd like to get that per-person cost down lower to $27-30/person. Obviously, if you had registered interest for this and still find this unpalatable, let me know in PMs.

I'll likely be back in the Southwest next year at that time so I'd be down.

# ? Nov 28, 2018 05:52

Mycroft Holmes: Mar 26, 2010; by Azathoth

# ? Nov 28, 2018 05:57

BIG HEADLINE: Jun 13, 2006; "Stand back, Ottawan ruffian, or face my lumens!"

Acebuckeye13 posted:

I'll likely be back in the Southwest next year at that time so I'd be down.

Sweet - already up to 13-14 now. I can't actually get the tour date locked down through Nellis until a maximum of 90 days prior, so I'm just doing homework and collecting interest at this point. Still ~6-7 months before this gets to be ~srs bzns~.

# ? Nov 28, 2018 06:15

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

I thought B-1s flew out of Diego Garcia and B-52s from Guam or CONUS for Sandblaster II missions.

What's Sandblaster II? Google got nothing.

# ? Nov 28, 2018 08:49

FrangibleCover: Jan 23, 2018; Nothing going on in my quiet corner of the Pacific.

This is the life. I'm just lying here in my hammock in Townsville, sipping a G&T.

Tias posted:

What's Sandblaster II? Google got nothing.

Iraqi Freedom/ Enduring Freedom I think, with Sandblaster I presumably being Desert Shield/ Desert Storm.

# ? Nov 28, 2018 09:08

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

look what i found on reddit

# ? Nov 28, 2018 09:55

Arban: Aug 28, 2017

The more I look at it the dumber it gets.

# ? Nov 28, 2018 12:08

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

FrangibleCover posted:

Iraqi Freedom/ Enduring Freedom I think, with Sandblaster I presumably being Desert Shield/ Desert Storm.

# ? Nov 28, 2018 12:11

ContinuityNewTimes: Dec 30, 2010; Я выдуман напрочь

HEY GUNS posted:

look what i found on reddit

Christ how awful

E: lmbo the second hand is a little sword

ContinuityNewTimes fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Nov 28, 2018

# ? Nov 28, 2018 12:23

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

Can you fit a bayonet to it

# ? Nov 28, 2018 12:25

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

This watch was born from FRIGGING KNIVES would have been a better tagline.

# ? Nov 28, 2018 12:29

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

CUTLERY

# ? Nov 28, 2018 12:30

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

I kind of want to see a samurai epic where everyone is swinging around giant novelty knives and forks as weaponry though.

# ? Nov 28, 2018 12:39

Rockopolis: Dec 21, 2012; I MAKE FUN OF QUEER STORYGAMES BECAUSE I HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH MY LIFE THAN MAKE OTHER PEOPLE CRY

I can't understand these kinds of games, and not getting it bugs me almost as much as me being weird

HEY GUNS posted:

look what i found on reddit

Didn't pair up the minute and hour hand as daisho. Lame.

# ? Nov 28, 2018 12:58

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# ? May 20, 2024 15:11

Lobster God: Nov 5, 2008

This is the spork of my ancestors

# ? Nov 28, 2018 12:59

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Milhist Thread Part The IVth: sir, my ass is flowing like Sun Tzu's army

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