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Panfilo posted:I don't like how they made infantry so pointless though. With each peasant unit using '1' peasant resource, why bother with Peasant mobs when you could take a trebuchet, light cav, or squires? It just becomes a really arbitrary thing. Their stats are below average and taking them can potentially handicap your economy. Playing TotalEconomicWar I see. I am just happy with knights and then some more knights. Why make it more complicated than that? Brettonia is all about pointless infantry and great knights. If you want a faction with useless infantry, there is plenty to choose from.
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Dec 3, 2018 21:18
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Knights in Bretonnia are also loving expensive which is obnoxious when it seems the game wants you to not conquer land, and gives you a whole mess of poo poo for even attempting it.
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Dec 3, 2018 21:48
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It would be more interesting if having less infantry in your forces provided more active benefits rather than an arbitrary penalty for taking too many Peasant mobs. While it seems like a great deal that they get walls built into their tier 3 settlements, it's kind of a catch 22 because two of the slots will get taken up by the economic buildings. So a coastal settlement with a trade resource (common in the game) means you tend to have to do either or. But if the windmill/storehouse applied to everything in the province it would free up building slots.
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Dec 3, 2018 22:03
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Queen Bess is so awesome that I find myself unprepared mentally when one of my other armies has to fight without it.
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Dec 3, 2018 22:17
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Yeah, it ends up getting like 75%of the kills in battles its in some it does obscene damage and also wrecks morale. Only complaint is that it should shoot fat exploding zombies out of the cannon which cartwheel through the air rather than just a bunch of barrels of gunpowder.
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Dec 3, 2018 22:21
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The treatment of the elves in End Times will not make me extremely pissed off because Gav Thorpe only cares about his glorious husbando Malekith. The fluff about him actually being a rightful king was a very new 8th ed addition, iirc, to try and make him more sympathetic. It isn't even necessarily a bad idea, the bad idea was him STILL being the rightful king after all the poo poo he's done since then. I feel the best solution would be for them to just keep AoS as it's own thing and have WFB alongside it. They can even cross promote a lot of the models since everything in WFB could be AoS legal. 
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Dec 3, 2018 22:40
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I'm in no way or form deep into Warhammer lore, but isn't he basically Darth Vader? Of course he should take off the mask and stop being evil in the end.
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Dec 3, 2018 22:49
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i wish they did more with the 'sigmarines can be from any race' thing. there are supposed to be like orcs and vampires and tomb kings included in the sigmarines, but i think they just ditched that idea
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Dec 3, 2018 22:55
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He's way more Hitler than Vader. Like Vader killed other Jedi, even children, but he was just a flunky for the real evil dude. And while Malekith does most of what Morathi tells him to, he is also responsible for making Naggarond the torture/murder/rape capital of the world. Which is impressive because he's up against some stiff contenders in the beastmen and Slaanesh. His entire reign has been about invading Ulthuan to indulge in murderfests and to kidnap people for use as slaves/break them into future dark elves. And given that he's one of the oldest elves in the setting, he's been doing this for thousands of years. So there's an order of magnitude of badness between the two.
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Dec 3, 2018 22:56
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Panfilo posted:Yeah, it ends up getting like 75%of the kills in battles its in some it does obscene damage and also wrecks morale. Yeah, I feel like Queen Bess might actually catch a nerf in a near term balancing patch, as that specific unit is stupidly good. You can center an entire army around simply ensuring Queen Bess has ammo, accuracy, and protection, and you would in win most fights simply based on her offensive abilities alone. She regularly deletes (or severely weakens to the point of uselessness) 5-6 units on her own before any other unit has engaged. It's ridiculous. I have won waaaaaay out of balance siege battle by simply waiting outside the range of the towers on certain maps. (where you can find cover) and letting Queen Bess go to work. I wish I would have screen shot or recorded the recent battle against a fully upgraded capital where I brought no special units aside from Queen Bess, the rest simple zombies or gunnery mobs, and let that single unit rack up over 1000 kills. I decided to breach the walls and enter the keep after 90% of opposing forces were either under 75% strength, or had left the battlefield entirely. It's for this reason that I almost always have Queen Bess in a "second general's" army instead of my primary LL's. That unit is oftentimes worth far more than an average legendary lord anyway.
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Dec 3, 2018 22:58
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It's not so much that AoS's setting is dumb and bad, but that they had to blow up WHFB to get there for whatever reason. And also they had no reason to do so. WHFB was doing just fine. Other than some names and the ability to use your old models, it's really not WHFB.
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Dec 3, 2018 23:19
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jokes posted:It's not so much that AoS's setting is dumb and bad, but that they had to blow up WHFB to get there for whatever reason. 32 years is a good run for any setting and there are still plenty of stories to be told about it - as Total Warhams is showing. But the tabletop game was awful for new players and the Thirty Years War with Monsters is a tough sell to new, younger players, the ultimate lifeblood of the hobby and the company. WHFB was also decreasing in sales year on year and there was little hope of a resurgence, creaking as it was under the weight of its own backstory and history. All stories have to end some time. One day 40k will end too and something else will rise up in its place. If people stop buying the miniatures and stop chumping up the cash, the company will end it. They're a business. I happen to really like AoS now and the barrier for entry for buying, painting and playing is fractional compared to what it was - hell, I even have an army now cos I could get my first set for 30 quid. But I'm also really glad we have stuff like Vermintide and Total Warhams to keep that setting going alongside AoS.
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Dec 3, 2018 23:38
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Can the game just tell me what climates a faction can settle in while I'm looking at the start campaign screen?
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Dec 3, 2018 23:43
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Luccion posted:Yeah, I feel like Queen Bess might actually catch a nerf in a near term balancing patch, as that specific unit is stupidly good. You can center an entire army around simply ensuring Queen Bess has ammo, accuracy, and protection, and you would in win most fights simply based on her offensive abilities alone. She regularly deletes (or severely weakens to the point of uselessness) 5-6 units on her own before any other unit has engaged. It's ridiculous.
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Dec 3, 2018 23:46
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Plavski posted:32 years is a good run for any setting and there are still plenty of stories to be told about it - as Total Warhams is showing. But the tabletop game was awful for new players and the Thirty Years War with Monsters is a tough sell to new, younger players, the ultimate lifeblood of the hobby and the company. WHFB was also decreasing in sales year on year and there was little hope of a resurgence, creaking as it was under the weight of its own backstory and history. All stories have to end some time. One day 40k will end too and something else will rise up in its place. If people stop buying the miniatures and stop chumping up the cash, the company will end it. They're a business. You say that but it was still in the top 5 for best selling miniature games the year it was canceled. It's only competition was Star Wars.  8th had a shitload of issues, but they were solvable issues, not blow up the setting grade issues.
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Dec 3, 2018 23:58
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Yeah and how many miniature wargames companies are there? 4?
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Dec 4, 2018 00:11
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Eimi posted:You say that but it was still in the top 5 for best selling miniature games the year it was canceled. It's only competition was Star Wars. It's kind of hard to look back and get a sense of what GW was thinking back then since they were so insular at the time. But I would not be surprised if Endtimes & AoS was a "we need to do something radical in order to change course"-style decision.
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Dec 4, 2018 00:16
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SHISHKABOB posted:Yeah and how many miniature wargames companies are there? 4? A bunch, but it's a fair point about serious contenders for a store-dominating game. I love flames of war, but it's a drop next to anything warhammer
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Dec 4, 2018 00:24
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genericnick posted:I'm in no way or form deep into Warhammer lore, but isn't he basically Darth Vader? Of course he should take off the mask and stop being evil in the end. He's a genuinely evil character. The entire society he has shaped for like four thousand years is about murder, rape and slavery, raiding poor and forgotten areas to take slaves to sacrifice them to evil gods in ghoulish ceremonies in order to gain personal power. He's a horror villain, a real over-the-top figure like a lot of the old race bad guys; not just a petty jerk or someone turned evil by grief. Redeeming him in the end times, and kinda the whole end times in general, showed how little the writers understood what was compelling about the setting and why it hit the way it did.
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Dec 4, 2018 00:44
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has anyone remarked on the fact that the elves have different special intrigue options for some race interactions? Their intrigue option for boosting their own standing with the lizards is just "tell them we're a part of the great plan or something idk"
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Dec 4, 2018 00:47
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Impermanent posted:has anyone remarked on the fact that the elves have different special intrigue options for some race interactions? Their intrigue option for boosting their own standing with the lizards is just "tell them we're a part of the great plan or something idk" Probably something in this big thread but it's one of my favorite little touches. In order to get someone mad at the skaven the elves fuckin' murk a dude and put a lovely dagger in his back with the sigil of the skaven faction
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Dec 4, 2018 00:51
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I'm not sure how amusing these will be if you're not familiar with the garbage genres of isekai and/or litrpg but  Alternate ending: 
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Dec 4, 2018 00:59
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genericnick posted:I'm in no way or form deep into Warhammer lore, but isn't he basically Darth Vader? Of course he should take off the mask and stop being evil in the end. "I hate snow. It's cold, wet and irritating, and it gets everywhere... Not like you Mum"
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Dec 4, 2018 01:12
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i think malekith being the rightful phoenix king just shows how lovely the elf gods are. along with everything else the elf gods have ever done. you might be actually better off with the chaos gods, at least they do give people gifts
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Dec 4, 2018 01:23
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juggalo baby coffin posted:i think malekith being the rightful phoenix king just shows how lovely the elf gods are. along with everything else the elf gods have ever done. you might be actually better off with the chaos gods, at least they do give people gifts And Nurgle is objectively the best Chaos god because his gifts keep on giving!
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Dec 4, 2018 01:24
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juggalo baby coffin posted:i think malekith being the rightful phoenix king just shows how lovely the elf gods are. along with everything else the elf gods have ever done. you might be actually better off with the chaos gods, at least they do give people gifts It beggars belief that the high god of the Elves went "Okay well you just had almost every other potential candidate assassinated after you and your mother established 'pleasure' cults across the entirety of Ulthuan in an attempt to smear the current Phoenix King, but he didn't do the challenge properly so I'll overlook the whole using Slaanesh thing and put you in charge of my people-oh nooooo dude you should have stayed in the fire a little longer!"
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Dec 4, 2018 01:40
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Malekith was cool with the Dwarves but then basically started the war of the beards! He's a jerk.
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Dec 4, 2018 01:42
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Elf gods are uniformly lovely, and the Elves that got turned into gods post End Times didn't fare much better. Malekith is sitting around with his fingers up his rear end while the realms get savaged by Chaos, Nagash and the forces of Destruction. Morathi isn't technically a god, and her use of Khaine's remains to keep up her masquerade that she is is implied to be preventing Big K from reviving. She loosened the locks on Slaanesh's prison to get her some more Elf souls and her followers tend to murder everything in sight. Tyrion is straight up old testament and murders anyone who enters the Realm of Light for not being his chosen people. Also sitting out the apocalyptic wars. Teclis adopted an entire subrace of Elves who were temporarily saved by Mathlann. When they popped out traumatised down to the soul by their time in Slaanesh, Teclis decided to fix them by first decimating them, then having his own brand of weirdo logic Elves hound them into the deepest, darkest oceans. Now said sea Elves roll around sucking the souls out of everyone not them. Great job. Finally Alarielle outright rejected the reborn Wood Elves when they appeared and is getting increasingly wary of non-tree people in her realm, while letting the reborn Drycha run around murdering anything not made of twigs. Elves suck.
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Dec 4, 2018 02:02
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The end times and AoS weren't really kind to anyone, man. Basically everyone got they character assassinated
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Dec 4, 2018 02:28
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Eimi posted:
This. AoS may be a better system by all accounts but lol @ calling it a better setting, and anyway both settings/systems could be run side by side without needing to axe anything. Heck, people have posted in this very thread that current GW management, in their own words, wouldn't have gone through with the squatting of the setting, they'd have made changes to improve it in line with what we have now; there's legit regret over the call made wrt killing off old Fantasy. Also there's been an absolute boom in miniatures wargaming in the last decade or so, and if Fantasy kept a 5th place marketshare it would still be well worth it.
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Dec 4, 2018 02:48
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The College of Pyrotechnics rogue army captured a settlement in my game and it had a garrison of three grenade launcher outriders and two hellstorm rocket batteries.
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Dec 4, 2018 02:53
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so one thing ive trotted out before that i think is a cool bit of either intentional or coincidental crossover with real history is the amount of parallels between Nagash and one of the real world kings of Egypt, Akhenaten. like the generally accepted basis for Settra is a combination of Ramses II (aka Ozymandias, aka 'I am Ozymandias, King of Kings, Look upon my works ye mighty, and tremble') and Alexander the Great (theres an anecdote about alexander weeping when he heard a theory about there being infinite worlds, because he had not yet conquered even one of them, which is Settra's motivation for seeking immortality). Neferata is evil vampire Cleopatra, and Khalida is (amazingly) a less warlike Hatshesput. but you don't hear much about Nagash's parallels to Akhenaten  akhenaten: the weird face guy Akhenaten was probably the most reviled of all pharaohs in egyptian history. There was an intentional attempt to erase him from history, his name was removed from records, his monuments were destroyed, future dynasties would only refer to him as 'the enemy' or 'the criminal'. One of the main reasons he is known to us now is the hard work of archaeologists, and the fact that he was Tutankhamen's father, and his queen was the famous Nefertiti.  Akhenaten and family Like Nagash, it was Akhenaten's brother who was meant to become king (in this case Akhenaten was the younger, rather than elder brother), and so Akhenaten became a priest. Unlike Nagash he was happy as a priest, and really really into theology (although nagash was also very successful and knowledgeable in the mortuary cult). Like nagash he would introduce some dangerous new ideas into the priesthood, but these wouldn't come into fruition until later. His brother who was meant to be king died young, of natural causes as far as anyone knows. Akhenaten was suddenly in line for the throne, a role which he was really unprepared for. Egypt was phenomenally wealthy at this time, as Khemri was when Nagash seized power. This was when Akhenaten started to do some really unpopular poo poo. Rather than necromancy, he had come up with something just as bad, if not worse, in the eyes of the people of egypt: monotheism. he had his own theory of god, which to him was embodied in what had been a minor egyptian god figure: the Aten. The aten was the sun disc featured in a lot of egyptian art, but Akhenaten elevated it above all other gods, eventually to the exclusion of all other gods, banning their worship. Akhenaten's crazy new idea was that gods weren't like powerful dudes who walk around in their own special realm, divinity was something that permeated the entire world. god was everywhere at all times, invisible. It's not a wild concept to us, as our culture is heavily intertwined in history with christianity, it's kind of the stock idea for us of what a god is. But to the egyptian people it was loving awful.  the aten blessing akhenaten with its radiance Can you imagine if suddenly some guy just loving got rid of all the characters you loved and replaced it with some golden bullshit? I can't think of a good analogy for that that would help people in this thread relate to the people of egypt, but it was bad. But they probably could have stuck it out if not for what Akhenaten did next. Nagash bankrupted Khemri with the construction of his Black Pyramid, and Akhenaten did something very similar. He ordered the construction of a new capital city, today known as Amarna, but at the time known as Akhetaten - The Horizon of the Aten. The place he wanted it built was really lovely and impractical. it was so impractical that despite being nearish the banks of the nile, and located between Cairo and Luxor, nobody in all of Egypt's unimaginably long history had built there. It was a completely fresh site. In the barren loving desert. there are theories about why he picked this place for his new city, but as it was intended to be the seat and the primary worship location for his religion, the fact it is a slightly raised and very sunny area of land might have made it the best place, in Akhenaten's eyes, to worship the Aten. quote:His Majesty mounted a great chariot of electrum, like the Aten when He rises on the horizon and fills the land with His love, and took a goodly road to Akhetaten, the place of origin, which [the Aten] had created for Himself that he might be happy therein. It was His son Wa'enrē [i.e. Akhenaten] who founded it for Him as His monument when His Father commanded him to make it. Heaven was joyful, the earth was glad every heart was filled with delight when they beheld him. the art in amarna is known for being very unique compared to art of all other periods of egyptian art. the art style in ancient egypt was known to evolve very, very slowly, but under Akhenaten there was a dramatic shift in the style of art. There was an increase in realism, but also strange elements of caricature (long fingers, feminine figures, amarna art might be the first bishonen art in human history). the sort of scenes it was acceptable to show the royal family in broadened, showing more humanistic and intimate settings (not loving, but stuff like kids playing and the family being a family). Men and women were shown with the same skin colour (previously women were always drawn lighter).  nefertiti's daughters playing its unclear whether the elements of caricature in the art were to flatter Akhenaten himself, or if his odd appearance in statuary is part of the art style too. there's been examination of his remains and screening of him for genetic conditions, which has been pretty inconclusive. Tutenkhamun's body is pretty hosed up in terms of genetic illnesses, but probably all other loving kings were too given the breeding practices of royals through history. there are a lot of shady scholars out there trying to pin a pet genetic disease on the guy without necessarily a lot of evidence. Another theory is that the androgyny in Akhenaten's depiction is to make him more godlike in line with his beloved Aten, which was said to be 'the mother and father of the world'. anyway, his city was pretty poorly constructed despite the expense of building it, he set very short deadlines for its construction (it only took 4 years for the entire city to be usable) so it was built out of whitewashed mud brick for the most part. after he died it was abandoned, which is why so much of it is left for us to see today. Akhenaten was a pretty lovely ruler overall though, despite his patronage of the arts and his lofty ideas on divinity. it's theorized that Nefertiti was co-regent for a fairly long period, and probably did a lot of the actual running of the country even prior to that, while her husband was dicking around with his sun ideas. when Akhenaten died his priesthood was purged from the land and his young son was installed as a puppet ruler for the various nobles and military leaders of the country to try and restore egypt to order. his city was abandoned, his monuments were pulled down, his name was chipped off of stone records of the history of egypt. where this goes is pretty interesting. Like Nagash's creation of necromancy, and the survival of his followers, so too did Akhenaten's ideas live on. Historians will argue about this for eternity, because the records and the timelines we have for these events are so unreliable and have become so altered over the years that it's impossible to prove it one way or another. But there's a compelling theory that the flight of Akhenaten's priesthood from Egypt would be retold as a little story called Exodus, and that what we know as Judaism now had its theological start in what is the first recorded equivalent to modern monotheist thought: Akhenaten's faith. despite the effort spent to erase the 'Amarna Heresy' from history, it would eventually outlive all the other gods of ancient egypt. like Nagash, Atenism would return centuries later to dominate the world through a bunch of guys wearing very tall hats: Christianity And if you believe moses and his israelites were Akhenaten's fleeing loyal priesthood, who does that make warhammer Moses? Our old buddy Arkhan the Black
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Dec 4, 2018 04:27
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So what happened to Abhorash in the end times? He's supposed to be a super badass right? I assume this means that he just disappears or gets murdered by some lame chump in typical Warhammer fashion.
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Dec 4, 2018 04:51
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Tripped and fell face first onto a bullet, no doubt.
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Dec 4, 2018 04:57
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Just looked it up and apparently he fought with the founder of Bretonnia and was so impressed with him that he actually helped to protect Bretonnia during the end times.
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Dec 4, 2018 05:06
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Two quick questions on the actual game. 1) I've been moving from faction to faction to get a feel for them and dwarves seem to have a particularly rough start now - quick googling tells me this is because of the buffs that orcs got and now they will murder stomp you. Is the best bet really just to tucker down in your own province or two until you have walls in every region and just do small raids until then? It's very dwarfy, but boring as poo poo. 2) What the living gently caress is up with pirates deciding to totally ignore everything else and beeline to you? I really can't wait for a number of the mods I see on the workshop to get updated, because there are a bunch of really weird/offputting design choices after all the amazing that is in the game.
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Dec 4, 2018 05:27
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based on the logic of how sigmarines work Vlad should be a sigmarine he does so much heroic stuff in end times AND gets honored by karl franz AND sacrifices his life to save his beloved wife. they need to bring vlad back as a cool vampire sigmarine
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Dec 4, 2018 05:28
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Khalida is a really nice inclusion.
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Dec 4, 2018 05:29
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TaintedBalance posted:Two quick questions on the actual game. I just did a Dwarf Campaign as Grombrindal and I put walls in each of the minor settlements in your starting province, and it helped a lot. I only ended up having to fight off I think about three siege battles, but it probably made all the difference.
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Dec 4, 2018 05:29
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i did a dwarf campaign with the no-walls mod and it kinda sucked. you need to get gunbad or you will lose. if you dont have it plus thunderers by the time the orcs roll up with black orcs you will lose. guns guns guns all day. organ guns are semi op it requires a slow and steady approach but you have to strike as opportunity allows. once you have 3 armies youre pretty much g2g
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Dec 4, 2018 06:23
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