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Skippy McPants posted:I don't disagree, Penny especially is really thin on character, but I think it was a fair compromise for the sake of supporting the films base premise of having a bunch of Spider-people together in one place. I don't think that conceit works nearly as well if you only have the three mains with one tack-on comic relief character. I agree. Also you needed it to show the range of the "'verse", otherwise it's like "oh well it's old spiderman. one is also a lady". yawn.
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Dec 29, 2018 07:09
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Spider-Ham is cannon. Poorly drawn non-anime girl is NOT.
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Dec 29, 2018 07:29
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UltraRed posted:Spider-Ham is cannon. Poorly drawn non-anime girl is NOT. Actually, you're thinking of Spider-cannon, the piece of revolutionary war artillery bitten by a radioactive spider
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Dec 29, 2018 07:31
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mmmmalo posted:On the subject of connecting the mundane stuff to the rest: One thing that struck me about the movie was that while I expected Miles's performance as Spiderman to be a mirror of his school problems, the situations don't actually seem to be in agreement? The "all wrong answers means you knew all the answers" scene with his teacher shows that Miles is sabotaging himself because he wants out, while his experience as Spiderman comes off as more mundane learning pains. You might be able to reconcile these by saying that Miles is (subconsciously I guess?) sabotaging himself as Spiderman like he does at school, implying that there's something about the possibility of success as Spiderman that terrifies him? Whatever that something might be. They actually are a complete mirror! Because Miles' real problem is that he thinks he has no choices in life, and that sad fact is crushing his soul. Miles doesn't know who he wants to be and even worse, he doesn't think he has any say in the matter. To start, he's torn between two paths: the path of the cop dad, or the path of the cool rap-music and possible-supervillain uncle. Then his dad explicitly tells him "you have no choices in life" and forces him to say "I love you back" which signals the beginning of Miles' entire conflict (first embarrassment in front of the whole school, and then later when he's forced by the spider bite (and subsequent superhero fight) to become godammn Spider-Man, whether he likes it or not. He's honor bound by a dying man to complete a mission that will save his family and his city on like Day 2 of getting powers. Peter Parker chose to become Spider-Man. Miles didn't get that luxury. Miles flunking the test intentionally is a desperate attempt to assert agency by at least choosing what school he goes to, but the teacher confirms he has no choices by giving him the exact opposite of the score he wanted. And then what ends up unlocking Miles' ultimate power and saving the day? When his dad says tearfully says "I love you. You don't have to say it back." Miles' dad gives him a choice, and Miles realizes his Dad's love is unconditional. Even if he makes the "wrong choices" (like his Dad says at the beginning) like Uncle Aaron, his Dad will still love him. And that is what allows Miles to realize (ok ok also probably literally meeting alternate versions of himself, that helps) that Miles can be whoever the gently caress he wants to be. And he wants to be a hero. There are a lot of messages crammed into this movie, some imho more basic and kid's movie standard ("never give up" is a big one), but ultimately it's a pretty layered and complex story about how openly giving love to others, without asking anything in return, unlocks their feeling of agency and frees them to be the most heroic version of themselves. Which is pretty drat heroic. PS: How did Miles get into the fancy boarding school? A goddamn lottery. Random fate was crushing this kid's life but his Dad's unconditional love let him kick the Kingpin's rear end. Dads rule! Otoh, his Dad's rejection of Uncle Aaron is probably what gave Miles all these issues about choosing the wrong path and losing his Dad's love in the first place, so maybe Dads are only ok. friendly 2 da void fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Dec 29, 2018 |
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Dec 29, 2018 08:05
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Movie is full of good dads. Jefferson, Aaron, and Peter are all pretty messed up in their own way but they're also all good dads to Miles. Yay for dads. gently caress, even Kingpin was a pretty good dad right up to the point that he wasn't in a way that mattered. Edit: and moms too. Rio and May are great. It's always very refreshing to have a superhero who doesn't come from a broken home. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Dec 29, 2018 |
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Dec 29, 2018 08:13
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Phylodox posted:Giving it half a moment’s thought, they very effectively illustrate the film’s main message, that “anyone can be Spider-Man”, even a prepubescent Japanese girl or a cartoon pig. Phylodox posted:The comic relief Spiders hint at the diversity that exists in the Spider-Verse, serve the film’s main theme Gatts posted:It serves as comedy relief and introduction to the Spiderverse by showing how far the concept goes Acebuckeye13 posted:By integrating those two characters into the plot, it helps sell two core ideas: One, that the multiverse is gigantic and varied, and that there are universes that are highly different from Miles', and second that even in spite of those differences, there are still heroes throughout who embody the quote from Stan Lee at the end of the film—thus tying into the film's overall statement that anyone can be Spider-Man, because it's not about being a nerd from Queens who works as a photographer as his day job, or having a specific set of powers, or even having an explicit spider-theme, but instead choosing to act selflessly for the benefit of others. This boils down to the following arguments: 1) Spider-Man is heroic 2) Anyone can be Spider-Man 3) The Spider-Man franchise is diverse Which rather proves my point, because they're are all in essence variations of "the movie is about what it means to be Spider-Man" - in other words, the movie is about itself. They're also rather untrue. First, Spider-Man is not heroic. That's the whole point of the character. He's a self-centered, self-pitying idiot fighting an ineffective war on crime. He fails to transcend his everyday life, so he never becomes a hero, let alone a superhero. Second, anyone can be Spider-Man, but that's not particularly impressive. You just need to buy a costume, like Miles Morales does, and you're set. Anyone can be Spider-Man, or Super-Man, or Nightwing. Third, the Spider-Man franchise is not very diverse, either in reality or as presented in the movie. We've already established that the movie's conceit is that every dimension is just another comic book series. There have been many alternate versions of Spider-Man among the years, but they're all either adaptations of the same basic story (Newspaper Spider-Man, Ultimate Spider-Man, Sam Raimi's Spider-Man, etc), or they're Spider-Man but a with a twist (being "noir," being Spider-Man's girlfriend, being a funny animal, etc). The latter are never very good. The movie is not even particularly faithful to the different interpretations. Peni Parker in the movie is a quirky anime girl in an off-brand Tachikoma, whereas as written by Gerard Way she was a morose teenager in an Iron Man-like suit. Spider-Man Noir is nothing like in the idiotically gritty comic. What's the point of doing homage to specific interpretations if they're nothing like those specific interpretations. Now the only one related to theme apart from "the movie is about itself" is this one: friendly 2 da void posted:They actually are a complete mirror! Because Miles' real problem is that he thinks he has no choices in life, and that sad fact is crushing his soul. Which is also wrong, because Miles Morales still doesn't have choices. He gets manipulated by Spider-God to become another of his avatars, which we've established is something that just happens. The universe is a giant spider-web, and Miles Morales is already caught in it. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Dec 29, 2018 |
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Dec 29, 2018 10:20
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Which is also wrong, because Miles Morales still doesn't have choices. He gets manipulated by Spider-God to become another of his avatars, which we've established is something that just happens.. The universe is a giant spider-web, and Miles Morales is already caught in it. Free will is an illusion you loving child.
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Dec 29, 2018 10:35
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porfiria posted:Free will is an illusion you loving child. Free will is real, strong, and he's my friend.
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Dec 29, 2018 10:36
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UltraRed posted:Spider-Ham is cannon. Poorly drawn non-anime girl is NOT. Peni Parker is cannon. http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Peni_Parker_(Earth-14512)
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Dec 29, 2018 10:53
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A few posters in here clearly love huffing their own farts, god drat. Define 'hero' then have a think.
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Dec 29, 2018 11:31
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Olympic Mathlete posted:A few posters in here clearly love huffing their own farts, god drat. Define 'hero' then have a think. Well you can't discuss Spider-Man on the internet without bringing farts into it, farts are a critical aspect of the Spider-Man mythos. There's over 100,000 Spiderman fart videos on the internet with hundreds more being added every day. 
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Dec 29, 2018 12:05
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There's two definitions of 'hero'. First, a hero is a remarkable, outstanding, and admirable individual. Second, it's a synonym for 'protagonist'. What everyone of course means is the first definition. Spider-Man only fits in that he's unusual. He's pitiable rather than outstanding or admirable. Now a superhero is a character who assumes a superhuman identity in their battle against injustice. Spider-Man doesn't fit that definition because he isn't really superhuman. He has superpowers, but he always remains recognizably, fallibly human. A genuine superhero would be, for example, the Phantom. The character is an identity assumed by a line of vigilantes, but the figure of the Ghost Who Walks is greater than any of them. The individual members of the Walker clan are remarkable people, but the Phantom is an immortal, inescapable avatar of justice. That's the basic idea of a superhero. 
BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Dec 29, 2018 |
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Dec 29, 2018 12:11
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Well you can't discuss Spider-Man on the internet without bringing farts into it, farts are a critical aspect of the Spider-Man mythos. There's over 100,000 Spiderman fart videos on the internet with hundreds more being added every day. And here I thought the internet was for porn.
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Dec 29, 2018 15:25
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hiddenriverninja posted:And here I thought the internet was for porn. The Internet taught us that everything is porn to someone.
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Dec 29, 2018 15:30
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Skippy McPants posted:Movie is full of good dads. Jefferson, Aaron, and Peter are all pretty messed up in their own way but they're also all good dads to Miles. Yay for dads. Even the other Peter made a good first impression on Miles in the little time he turned out to have. I always felt that Peter being raised by his uncle and aunt- and losing one- in what's otherwise shown to be a completely loving and generally healthy relationship shows how precious a loving family is and also how fragile it can be. Peter's already an orphan not by tragic backstory but mere tragic fact of life, all before he starts dealing with superpowers from a science experiment and losing his uncle to a murder he could have prevented. Bad luck haunts his life (they call it Parker Luck for a reason) and bouncing back from failure, tragedy and tragic failure becomes a defining aspect of every spider-person's life.
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Dec 29, 2018 16:02
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friendly 2 da void posted:PS: How did Miles get into the fancy boarding school? A goddamn lottery. Can I just say that with how much Hollywood and eltie neolibs in general love giving sloppy blowjobs to private schools it was incredibly refreshing to have Visions be portrayed aa a crushing hellhole driven by exclusivity and allied with a literal supervillain? It also totally lines up with the movie's themes that schools that brag about how accomplished and successful their student body is simply by wont of throwing anyone with less than perfect scores out onto the street so they don't drag their stats down would rightfully be portrayed as a bad thing. You could even possibly do a reading on Miles' teachers refusing to flunk him despite him obviously not wanting to be there and the stressful hyper-competitive environment being bad for him being as much about selfishly not wanting to toss the token poor kid charity case out on his first week for PR purposes just as much as any altruistic belief in pushing him to do his best.
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Dec 29, 2018 16:38
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UltraRed posted:Spider-Ham is cannon. Poorly drawn non-anime girl is NOT. Nitrousoxide posted:Peni Parker is cannon. I am so goddamn triggered right now
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Dec 29, 2018 16:42
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Guy Mann posted:Can I just say that with how much Hollywood and eltie neolibs in general love giving sloppy blowjobs to private schools it was incredibly refreshing to have Visions be portrayed aa a crushing hellhole driven by exclusivity and allied with a literal supervillain? Uh, I don't think it was portrayed as a crushing hellhole, it was just a goofy fancy private school for smartypants. You do realize Miles ends up embracing the school (represented by his roommate) and attending it as part of his heroes journey right? Like, Miles doesn't end up going back to public school, part of his emotional climax is choosing to go to Visions and being happy about it. You've got an obvious ax to grind, and it's probably a righteous one, but it's really not represented in the film at all.
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Dec 29, 2018 17:08
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friendly 2 da void posted:Uh I dont think it was portrayed as a crushing hellhole it was just a goofy fancy private school for smartypants. You do realize Miles ends up embracing the school (represented by his roommate) and attending it as part of his heroes journey right? Like, he doesn't end up going back to public school, part of his emotional climax is choosing to attend Visions. You've got an obvious ax to grind and it's really not represented in the film at all. Also his big emotional moment with his dying uncle was promising to keep bettering himself at the fancypants school.
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Dec 29, 2018 17:09
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Which is also wrong, because Miles Morales still doesn't have choices. He gets manipulated by Spider-God to become another of his avatars, which we've established is something that just happens. The universe is a giant spider-web, and Miles Morales is already caught in it. BravestOfTheLamps.... I love you. You don't have to say it back. I will always just love you.
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Dec 29, 2018 17:11
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Phylodox posted:The Internet taught us that everything is porn to someone. While true, in this case it's about bots trying to exploit Youtube's algorithms for advertising dollars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKp2gikIkD8
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Dec 29, 2018 17:44
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friendly 2 da void posted:PS: How did Miles get into the fancy boarding school? A goddamn lottery. Random fate was crushing this kid's life but his Dad's unconditional love let him kick the Kingpin's rear end. Dads rule! Otoh, his Dad's rejection of Uncle Aaron is probably what gave Miles all these issues about choosing the wrong path and losing his Dad's love in the first place, so maybe Dads are only ok. For me, Aaron vs Jeff is riding on how dad's advice works out for scoring a date. They both clearly love Miles, but what can they teach him? Uncle's advice was "put your hands on girls to get their attention" and that bombed pretty hard. Meanwhile dad's got a cool wife and kid. Let's hear more about that.
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Dec 29, 2018 18:02
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Nitrousoxide posted:Peni Parker is cannon. Since I've established that Spider-Cannon is the piece of artillery bitten by a spider, you might be thinking of Spider-Canon, aka Peter O'Reilly, the mild mannered altar boy bitten by a radioactive spider who became a masked avenger fighting newspapers after his priestly guardian Father Ben had his life ruined by the Daily Bugle's Spotlight team.
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Dec 29, 2018 18:18
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Or maybe Peter Pachibel, Spider-Canon in Earth-D
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Dec 29, 2018 18:26
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I Before E posted:Since I've established that Spider-Cannon is the piece of artillery bitten by a spider, you might be thinking of Spider-Canon, aka Peter O'Reilly, the mild mannered altar boy bitten by a radioactive spider who became a masked avenger fighting newspapers after his priestly guardian Father Ben had his life ruined by the Daily Bugle's Spotlight team. I Before E posted:Or maybe Peter Pachibel, Spider-Canon in Earth-D Some of the actual alternate universe Spider-men are even crazier/dumber/more hosed up than those: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_versions_of_Spider-Man Several of them converted their web slingers to shoot bullets. One of them was molested by Uncle Ben. One of them is a cowboy who lives in the old west and rides a spiderhorse.
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Dec 29, 2018 18:39
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god. imagine being known as "molested spider-man". like that's your "thing".
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Dec 29, 2018 18:46
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Pick posted:god. imagine being known as "molested spider-man". like that's your "thing". There's also "Got bitten by a radioactive spider .... and instead of getting super powers his hand withered away" Spider-Man and "Got bitten by a radioactive spider and died of cancer" Spider-Man and "Gave Mary Jane cancer with his radioactive jizz and she died" Spider-Man. That's not the same guy, that's three different versions.
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Dec 29, 2018 18:53
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molested by a radioactive ben and got cancer. there was no spider. that would have been an improvement
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Dec 29, 2018 18:55
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Wasn't there an issue where 616 Spider-Man tells a kid he was molested as a child?
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Dec 29, 2018 18:55
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What's the point of doing homage to specific interpretations if they're nothing like those specific interpretations. In terms of consideration, does it matter to distinguish between adaptation and homage with Spider-Verse? I want to watch the movie again, specifically for characters like Peni Parker, because I’ve seen people talking about her lips not syncing with her dubbed voice. But I didn’t really pay attention to that and her lack of presence in the movie does diminish praising things like that. I also think that if that’s the case, I said this in another thread, but classic dubbing would remove things like 「初めまして！」and I think that would be an example of trying to have your cake and eat it too. The idea that these are adaptations only in so far as to give the source material some sort of notoriety I would be curious to hear more about. Like, there’s clearly creative license taken to slot these characters into being associated with animation but then they retain faifthfulness to the comics and are thus limited in executing either idea. No character ever remarks about a sense of time. And it’s not that they have to, but we also had that gag about the Spider-Verse comic commenting on Newspaper Spider-Man’s temporality. I understand a desire to praise these thinga, but I do agree that Miles’ life is engulfed by a lot of that. We never get a sense of why Prowler, who is the most obvious direct candidate for anti spider-man, chose a life of crime beyond just having poor character. He just dies, and while the death is emotional it came across to me as manipulative because the movie plays like he was hiding something but I don’t think him being a villain is a particularly profound revelation. I did enjoy the movie, but when people are saying ideas were spread thin, I agree. It’s probdbly not best to steer that toward meaning there was a better or more marketable film that could have happened, I simply mean these things do support the readings actually made thus far. e: iOS is my enemy Corrosion fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Dec 29, 2018 |
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Dec 29, 2018 18:56
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Also, hobo Peter Parker totally wanted to die. Not just avoid going back to his universe and facing his problems with weight loss and a failed marriage, guy straight up had a death wish. It was cool when Miles suddenly Became The Dad and helped him out. We are all our own Dad. Namaste.Corrosion posted:I understand a desire to praise these thinga, but I do agree that Miles’ life is engulfed by a lot of that. We never get a sense of why Prowler, who is the most obvious direct candidate for anti spider-man, chose a life of crime beyond just having poor character. He just dies, and while the death is emotional it came across to me as manipulative because the movie plays like he was hiding something but I don’t think him being a villain is a particularly profound revelation. Why do we need to know why Prowler choose a life of crime? Some people become family man cops, some people become drug dealers with cool apartments and banging soundsystems. Life has many paths and Miles has to choose which one is his. friendly 2 da void fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Dec 29, 2018 |
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Dec 29, 2018 20:10
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friendly 2 da void posted:Also, hobo Peter Parker totally wanted to die. Not just avoid going back to his universe and facing his problems with weight loss and a failed marriage, guy straight up had a death wish. It was cool when Miles suddenly Became The Dad and helped him out. We are all our own Dad. Namaste.
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Dec 29, 2018 20:29
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Argh, goddamnit, I heard so many great things about this movie, so I had to see it as an animation fan, and it was amazing on so many levels, but I'm 99% sure that my theater hosed it up and showed the 3D print by mistake. Like five to ten minutes in I popped out of the theater and asked an employee about it, but I was too goony to confidently communicate the issue to her and she thought I was just complaining about it being animated. But there were double-images everywhere; the further out-of-focus something went the more obvious the double-images got and the blurrier they were. I should have known instantly that it was a mistake, and, I mean, I did know instantly that it was a mistake, but I went into denial and tried to convince myself that everything was fine and it was a deliberate art choice to reference comic book misprints, but it was bothering me through the whole movie. Guess I'm going to see it again next week... so maybe it wasn't such a bad thing?  I did make sure to let the theater know that there was definitely an issue on my way out.
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Dec 29, 2018 20:37
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21 Muns posted:Argh, goddamnit, I heard so many great things about this movie, so I had to see it as an animation fan, and it was amazing on so many levels, but I'm 99% sure that my theater hosed it up and showed the 3D print by mistake. Like five to ten minutes in I popped out of the theater and asked an employee about it, but I was too goony to confidently communicate the issue to her and she thought I was just complaining about it being animated. But there were double-images everywhere; the further out-of-focus something went the more obvious the double-images got and the blurrier they were. I should have known instantly that it was a mistake, and, I mean, I did know instantly that it was a mistake, but I went into denial and tried to convince myself that everything was fine and it was a deliberate art choice to reference comic book misprints, but it was bothering me through the whole movie. Guess I'm going to see it again next week... so maybe it wasn't such a bad thing? There's a degree of that even in the 2d showings. They layered on a lot of different ways to show depth in this movie: blurred/split lines and an aggressive level-of-detail fade were just a couple of them. Some people can't get past the blurring/split effect, and I feel that's one of the very few legit criticisms in the movie. Not that I agree (it didn't bother me), but because I can see how it would bother some people.
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Dec 29, 2018 20:41
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Is there a Spider Man where Peter is a huge anthropomorphic spider who gets bitten by a radioactive man and gains all the proportionate strength and abilities of a man?
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Dec 29, 2018 20:44
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It was supposed to look like that
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Dec 29, 2018 20:45
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friendly 2 da void posted:
Because Aaron and Jeff represent social choices. "Sometimes people are evil" is a willfully ignorant response to that, especially given that the take away from Prowler is "If you're bad in a socially accepted way, you'll die because a white person will shoot you so don't get out of line." Prowler is clearly adept with technology, and he's the only one who can see Miles which is the idea that he can see himself in Miles. Why do we need to know what informs this? Because some people still say "Sometimes people are just like bad and stuff." I think Prowler is potentially interesting, but that's why I really just chose to say I agree with the readings made about the Spider-Verse engulfing Miles as a character.
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Dec 29, 2018 20:56
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Corrosion posted:Because Aaron and Jeff represent social choices. "Sometimes people are evil" is a willfully ignorant response to that, especially given that the take away from Prowler is "If you're bad in a socially accepted way, you'll die because a white person will shoot you so don't get out of line." Prowler is clearly adept with technology, and he's the only one who can see Miles which is the idea that he can see himself in Miles. Why do we need to know what informs this? Because some people still say "Sometimes people are just like bad and stuff." I think Prowler is potentially interesting, but that's why I really just chose to say I agree with the readings made about the Spider-Verse engulfing Miles as a character. It's the "good one/bad one" dynamic of black representation that was previously seen in Black Panther.
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Dec 29, 2018 21:12
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porfiria posted:Is there a Spider Man where Peter is a huge anthropomorphic spider who gets bitten by a radioactive man and gains all the proportionate strength and abilities of a man? That's basically the origin story for Spider-Ham, instead being an anthropomorphic pig biting a spider.
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Dec 29, 2018 21:12
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:It's the "good one/bad one" dynamic of black representation that was previously seen in Black Panther. Right but could you also go and answer my previous post cause I asked something else.
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Dec 29, 2018 21:24
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