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I needed to finally get around to making some modules and all this talk of bots made me feel like it was time to mix the usual belt spaghetti up with some inserter spaghetti. Completely gratuitous bot usage, of course, but it was fun to build. Should probably pair it with a pair of substations instead though to make it look neater and use some of the empty space at the left and right.
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Jan 8, 2019 00:01
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Dancer posted:If this is the first time you're playing the game: no. Nuclear has a few different puzzles that can be rather tricky and will take a lot of time to figure out. Solar is close to brain-dead. Get yourself a sun farm going. It's also good to help bootstrap if you gently caress up and run out of fuel, it can give you just enough power to kick start the rest of your power generation
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Jan 8, 2019 00:08
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TheFluff posted:it was fun to build This is the important part.
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Jan 8, 2019 00:46
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I tried doing the rail signal tutorial and I still can't make sense of what I'm doing with signals. Like I managed to do the advanced tutorial, but never really put together why it worked. Is there something that explains this in a way even idiots like me can comprehend?
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Jan 8, 2019 02:02
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Oxyclean posted:I tried doing the rail signal tutorial and I still can't make sense of what I'm doing with signals. Like I managed to do the advanced tutorial, but never really put together why it worked. I'm kinda in the same boat. I sort of resigned myself into just laying out my train circuits so they don't intersect because eventually I'd end up with one train waiting endlessly, or I'd soft lock my production because it's carrying X and waiting for the train with Y to unload, which it cannot do because because factory needs both XY to keep going Also man everyone has such neat factories. Mine are sprawling twisting mazes, kinda amazing it works at all
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Jan 8, 2019 02:12
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It's difficult without knowing exactly what you're getting hung up on. Perhaps you could elaborate on what problems you run into when trying to build your own train networks? The real short summary is that signals divide your track up into blocks, and only one train is allowed into each block at a time. A regular signal lets a train past if the next block is empty, while a chain signal only lets a train past if both the next block is empty, and the train is allowed to go past the next signal that going to see.
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Jan 8, 2019 02:23
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Basically, a chain signal is green if any signals ahead of it are green, so if you have a Y fork for example, you'd want to put a chain signal at the entrance and normal signals at the branches. If you have something like a + shaped junction, going north -> south and west -> east, put two chain signals, one west and one north of the junction, and then regular signals east and south. In short, chain signals go on entrances, rail signals go on exits.  If you have a more complex intersection where you should be placing a rail signal and a chain signal nearly adjacent, you should usually replace both with a single chain signal. Falcorum fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 02:23
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Maybe I'm over-complicating my track design but this is what I have set up: On the left section, I have two loops: the right one for Train A to drop-off and refuel, and the left one for train B to refuel (want to make a single refuel spot for other future trains) In both cases the trains enter their loops from the right side. Train A loops back and goes south (right image) and Train B will go East. The south end is currently a loop of similar design with no signals, so imagine it's a whole block, but there shouldn't be any trains on it.
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Jan 8, 2019 02:45
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Oxyclean posted:Maybe I'm over-complicating my track design but this is what I have set up: The big problem you have is using one piece of track for two direction travel. A signal only breaks stuff up in one direction, so you would need either signals on both sides of the track or, more usually, two parallel lengths of track.
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Jan 8, 2019 02:48
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Ah okay, I fiddled around with stuff until it decided to work. I guess I'll just try to plan for multiple tracks in the future. Is there a way to check locomotive fuel? Wondering if there's an easy/good way to keep my train fueled with a separate stop from the dropoff point. I could probably fuel at the dropoff point but I dont want to have to belt/bot the fuel all the way across my base.
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Jan 8, 2019 03:07
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Regarding rail signalling - I saw a pretty good overview about structuring rails networks linked on the factorio reddit. It explains the whole idea behind signals without assuming you've been running a model railroad in a dedicated room of your house for the last 20 years, which I found helpful.
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Jan 8, 2019 03:28
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Creating a two-lane train system is a really good idea if you want to use trains. Think of it like roads, really; one lane goes one way, the other lane goes the opposite. It'll help a lot. As for signals the regular signals allow a train to go forward if the next chunk is unoccupied. It only looks ahead to the next signal. So if you have train -> signal -> empty track -> signal and the train wants to move that way it does. However if you have train -> signal -> train -> signal then the first train can't go forward until the next train does. Chain signals allow trains to look further ahead. They only let a train go through if the train can trace a path through chain signals to the next regular signal chunk it wants. So if you have train -> chain signal -> empty track -> chain signal -> empty track -> regular signal -> train and the first train wants to move it can't. This is useful for creating more complex train networks as it lets you prevent clogs by keeping trains off of tracks they can't find a path through at the given moment. So if you have something like train -> chain signal -> empty track -> chain signal -> branches the train can only pass the chain signal if it wants to get into one of those branches and it can path into whichever one it wants. Otherwise it sits and waits. Signals also prevent a train from going the wrong way down a particular path. This lets you set up one-way tracks which is how you set up a two lane road sort of thing.
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Jan 8, 2019 03:46
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The rule of thumb I now remember is "whenever two tracks meet in the direction of travel--such as exiting a train stop to get back onto the travel line, or anywhere lines cross--put a chain signal just before the intersection on each line. Otherwise, use regular signals" I don't know if that holds up because I haven't actually tried to make my own junction yet, my train system isn't developed enough for more than one car anyway, but it's worked fine for setting up train stops.
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Jan 8, 2019 04:16
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KillHour posted:Solving oil is one of the most interesting problems in the game. Avoid blueprints and guides entirely, IMO. Don't be stubborn and insist on making everything perfect the first time you play - you can't unlearn it and you'll miss out on the discovery, which is the entire point. I started playing recently and I've been avoiding guides for everything but load balancers because those are tedious. Figuring out better ways to accomplish what you've made before is so much fun. It's what I love about Zachtronic games and why I initially fell in love with Factorio.
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Jan 8, 2019 07:11
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My little piece of advice when trying to put down signals for an intersection: do it interactively! Grab a couple trains or cargo wagons. (The latter are much cheaper, so you'll probably have a couple extra.) At the intersection, model the different interactions between the trains! For example, if you're setting up a T intersection, have one train acting as the train that's trying to merge and have the other train cross the intersection. What happens if a train is merging to the left and a train is coming from the right? Or a train is crossing the intersection as a train is coming up to merge? You don't need to fuel the trains, just plonk them on the tracks -- the signals will still activate, showing you which blocks are blocked by each train. I think there's also a way to view the blocks created by signals, but I don't remember if that shows up automatically or if it's a debug option. (F4 to open the debug options, F5 to toggle the basic debug view.)
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Jan 8, 2019 08:27
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It shows up automatically if you hold a signal on the cursor! I've found it to be super helpful.
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Jan 8, 2019 08:45
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I might be a little late to the party, but I just had a little  moment...TIL that when placing Landfill or Concrete you can change the brush size by pressing Numpad + or -
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Jan 8, 2019 11:49
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There is a really good set of tutorials on train networks that helped me get it: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/4f38sk/factorio_train_automation_complete_parts_23_and/ The recent change to shown blocks while placing signals made things easier to see, too.
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Jan 8, 2019 15:13
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how much lead space does there need to be before the critical section? like, one of my big ones right now is just two unrelated two-way train lines meeting in a #, and I'd like to keep them from ever possibly crashing, do I need to allow some braking space? also, do we still need to keep tracks widely separated going around curves? I remember there used to be trouble with paired tracks going around curves too close
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Jan 8, 2019 16:56
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There is no need for a lead space, you can put the signal right up at the intersection and the train will always stop at the signal (if they need to stop). As for spacing, I'm not sure of any issues with curves but I always go with 6 spaces (3 rail segments wide) between tracks. 2 segments wide also works but makes some intersections tricky to signal.
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Jan 8, 2019 17:13
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necrotic posted:There is no need for a lead space, you can put the signal right up at the intersection and the train will always stop at the signal (if they need to stop). As for spacing, I'm not sure of any issues with curves but I always go with 6 spaces (3 rail segments wide) between tracks. 2 segments wide also works but makes some intersections tricky to signal. I think the only critical rule of thumb is that distance to the next signal after an intersection has to be greater than the longest train on that line. If one's shorter, you risk a train stopping on that signal and its tail blocking the intersection
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Jan 8, 2019 17:18
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If you have a really long straight run, too, don't forget to break that run into smaller blocks with signals as well! If you have one signal at the start of a loooooong straigaway, and only one at the very end, when you start getting multiple trains using that straightaway, the whole block is occupied when one solitary train is going that big distance. If you have signals distanced apart 2x or 3x you train length, this keeps stuff flowing. Also, the best advice I've ever seen for resolving a deadlock is to add/remove signals until you clear the deadlock without jumping into the train yourself. Doing that almost ensures that same specific deadlock won't happen again, and if you can't resolve it without hopping in a train, you need to relay that whole intersection, basically.
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Jan 8, 2019 17:27
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That's more if there's another intersection after the original one. So long as there is space for your longest train to fit in the straight segment between the two then you don't have to worry about signal distances. EDIT: Nevermind, reconsidered and my advice is wrong and isn't useful. Sage Grimm fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 17:29
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Signal distance isn't a huge deal on the track before an intersection, but the first block after an intersection needs to be big enough to hold your biggest train, otherwise it's rear end'll be in the intersection and block things.
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Jan 8, 2019 17:39
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Magus42 posted:if I haven't built solar yet and have nuclear unlocked, should I just skip straight to that if I can? If your factory E; One reactor (inefficient!) makes 40MW, and is equivalent to 952 Panels and 800 Accumulators. Four reactors makes 480MW, replacing 11424 Panels and 9597 Accumulators. Six reactors makes 800MW and so on. 40MW of nuclear is 4,650 Copper, 1,880 Iron, 1,200 Plastic, 790 Steel, and 600 Concrete 40MW of solar is 26,180 Copper, 15,880 Iron, 4,760 Steel + 4000 Batteries 480MW of nuclear is 20,200 Copper, 9,120 Iron, 4,800 Plastic, 3,960 Steel, and 2,400 Concrete 480MW of solar is 314,160 Copper, 190,554 Iron, 57,120 Steel + 47,985 Batteries Since Reactors have a huge stacking bonus I always say that your first nuclear system should be designed for at least 4 if not 6 reactors. Even if you just lay it out for expansion to a 2x3 or 2x4 so you don't have to spend the resources right off the bat. Because the 238/235 production rate is a %, statistically you only need 1 centrifuge per reactor. Each reactor goes through ten fuel cells in 2000 seconds and each 235 makes ten fuel cells, and if the centrifuge is running nonstop you will get on average a 235 in under 2000 seconds. But really you want to probably make two centrifuges per Reactor to save up for Korvax, nuclear missiles, and nuclear fuel. Bettik posted:Regarding rail signalling - I saw a pretty good overview about structuring rails networks linked on the factorio reddit. It explains the whole idea behind signals without assuming you've been running a model railroad in a dedicated room of your house for the last 20 years, which I found helpful. Great work on this! M_Gargantua fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 17:43
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got it, no need for lead space. and making sure I understand the earlier posts: for an intersection block, chain signal goes on the entrances, regular signal goes on the exits? I think I've been doing all mine backwards lol
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Jan 8, 2019 17:44
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LordSaturn posted:got it, no need for lead space. and making sure I understand the earlier posts: for an intersection block, chain signal goes on the entrances, regular signal goes on the exits? I think I've been doing all mine backwards lol Yup that's the correct order.
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Jan 8, 2019 17:59
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LordSaturn posted:got it, no need for lead space. and making sure I understand the earlier posts: for an intersection block, chain signal goes on the entrances, regular signal goes on the exits? I think I've been doing all mine backwards lol Yes. My rule for chains is that I use them anytime I can't fit in a whole train before the next signal. chain - intersection with any number of chain signals - regular - enough space for a train - next signal of any type.
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Jan 8, 2019 18:04
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wait have i been doing my parking and train stops backward the whole time then 
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Jan 8, 2019 18:11
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Bettik posted:Regarding rail signalling - I saw a pretty good overview about structuring rails networks linked on the factorio reddit. It explains the whole idea behind signals without assuming you've been running a model railroad in a dedicated room of your house for the last 20 years, which I found helpful. Read the linked post, it's excellent and presents trains and signals in a useful way with good diagrams.
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Jan 8, 2019 18:16
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Ciaphas posted:wait have i been doing my parking and train stops backward the whole time then Probably not if you have a waiting area for trains you want the signals like this shared entry from rail network regular signal 1 regular signal 2 regular signal n train wait 1 train wait 2 train wait n chain signal 1 chain signal 2 chain signal n shared exit from wait area regular signal A regular signal B train stop A train stop B regular signal (probably) regular signal (probably) this way trains don't leave the waiting area unless they can reach a train stop
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Jan 8, 2019 19:45
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Bettik posted:Regarding rail signalling - I saw a pretty good overview about structuring rails networks linked on the factorio reddit. It explains the whole idea behind signals without assuming you've been running a model railroad in a dedicated room of your house for the last 20 years, which I found helpful. This is some spicy poo poo. Goes off on a super spergy rant about how everyone else is too convoluted and wrong, and then writes an authoritative guide that fundamentally misrepresents key concepts and is outright wrong in some pretty important places. There are some good ideas in there (thinking in blocks is correct) but it's pretty insufferable writing and the diagrams are unreadable. I don't think he understands train pathing very well - he seems really mad about it at the end when he realizes he's completely misunderstood chain signals all along. Like, seriously, this part for example: quote:Trains read signals on the right hand side of the rail relative to their direction of travel; they ignore everything on their left. Oh yeah? Let's tell a train to try to bypass a signal on its left side by telling it to go from the left station to the right:  Trains in fact care very much about signals on their left. Sure, they won't stop at a signal on their left, but only because they cannot take a path that leads to a signal appearing on their left at all - except for the special case where there's a matching signal on the other side of the track. In fact, in the current version of the game, if you've created a block by placing a signal on one side of the track, it won't let you place a signal on the other side of the track in any place other than directly opposite the first one (the white highlighted square):  Trains will try to find the shortest way to the destination, but won't use paths that would mean passing a signal on their left unless you've explicitly marked the signal as bidirectional by placing a matching signal on the opposite side of the track. That said, bidirectional track is a bad idea anyway, don't do that. Some of the diagrams are dangerously wrong too, like this one:  This is a guaranteed deadlock, and I can easily show you why by building his layout in game:  Hasn't deadlocked yet, but let's see what happens when the upper right train is trying to go to the station on the left and moves past the happily green signal:  Oops, now the left train can't enter the red block and the right train can't enter the leftmost yellow one. They're blocked by each other - deadlock. To be fair though, he does seem to realize because later he shows a version that kinda works using chain signals:  But that is way more complex than it needs to be and it's bidirectional for no reason, you can do this without deadlock with regular signals like in his original diagram, if you just place them right and don't use more than you need:  To me as an old OpenTTD sperg all of this seems simple, and all the explanations I've seen seem to overcomplicate things way too much, but every time I've tried to explain it myself I really haven't done a better job either. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 20:40
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I liked how the article talked about chain signals indicating blocks that trains shouldn't sit in and regular signals for blocks that can contain trains. But I also haven't had much trouble understanding signals, so I'm not really the best person to judge the article.
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Jan 8, 2019 21:39
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Solumin posted:I liked how the article talked about chain signals indicating blocks that trains shouldn't sit in and regular signals for blocks that can contain trains. But I also haven't had much trouble understanding signals, so I'm not really the best person to judge the article. I read that article and I'm gonna be honest, if that rule of thumb holds up then I'm happy to use it. Every time I try to suss out a rule of thumb for myself I keep going in circles  (it really doesn't help that i can't remember the visual difference between rail and chain signals at a glance. you'd think i'd remember eventually)
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Jan 8, 2019 22:55
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Solumin posted:I liked how the article talked about chain signals indicating blocks that trains shouldn't sit in and regular signals for blocks that can contain trains. But I also haven't had much trouble understanding signals, so I'm not really the best person to judge the article. Yeah, that part is good, but he doesn't explain really anything about where to actually place signals, and his example intersections are really poorly signaled in general. They will work in the sense that they won't deadlock, but he does things like a T-junction example that won't allow trains on parallel tracks going opposite directions to meet without stopping. He also does single bidirectional entry/exit tracks from big double track stations, which is also an odd choice IMO, especially for a guide supposedly for beginners. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 23:04
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The easy rule of thumb is that wherever trains cross, merge or split, put chain signals on the entrances and normal signals on the exits. If you have another cross/merge/split less than a train length from the exit signal, keep using chain signals until the train can stop behind it without blocking anything.
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Jan 8, 2019 23:10
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Ciaphas posted:I read that article and I'm gonna be honest, if that rule of thumb holds up then I'm happy to use it. Every time I try to suss out a rule of thumb for myself I keep going in circles
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Jan 8, 2019 23:16
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Now I'm really interested in OpenTTD
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Jan 8, 2019 23:17
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I've always made signal blocks on straightaways "One whole train + 1 pixel", allowing trains to pack tightly when traffic is bad (jamming as little rail as possible) and allowing trains to exit blocks as quickly as possible (by virtue of traveling less distance). Is there some reason blocks should be larger? Other than the negligible cost of the signal, I guess.
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Jan 8, 2019 23:21
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Evilreaver posted:I've always made signal blocks on straightaways "One whole train + 1 pixel", allowing trains to pack tightly when traffic is bad (jamming as little rail as possible) and allowing trains to exit blocks as quickly as possible (by virtue of traveling less distance). Is there some reason blocks should be larger? Nah, length of your longest train is a good block size. You can make the blocks smaller if you want (as long as taking up two blocks won't mess up the pathing for other trains), but making them bigger just lowers throughput (very marginally, but still). manero posted:Now I'm really interested in OpenTTD https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3831934 
TheFluff fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 23:50
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