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Even the Really Poor Decision and the Made Them Less Alien arguments are just subspecies of the Ruined My Childhood type argument. Worse case, she was indeed a monarchical individual leader of the Borg and all that means is that what you thought you knew about them was wrong. But that is doubtful given all we see. This is much less a problem if you accept that she is a manifestation of the collective. poo poo, she might be a manifestation of the Borg's collective unconscious. Not in the Freudian sense, obviously. Perhaps the queen phenomenon is repeated multiple times throughout the collective and are sort of a Borg psychosis that is able to give itself physical form and that is positive (or neutral) enough overall to leave be. Her actions would then both represent the collective and be an aberration within it. Sort of a viral borg meme that threatens to corrupt the collective. The collective may have different warring directives going on within it all the time, sort of an evolution of ideas, and she represents one faction. A usurper queen.
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Jan 17, 2019 22:32
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The Bloop posted:I think that they are alien and ineffable is more important than their facelessness. Just when you thought you understood them, there is a wrinkle. I think theres a real case to be made for this interpretation. After all, what is it the borg do more than anything else? Adapt. They already experimented with a more personal figurehead with "locutus of borg" when they wanted to overcome the federation defenses, I could see the collective will of the borg deciding to nominate a hierarchical figure when dealing with this group of species who have outwitted them in the past. Either thinking a more direct structure like the federation uses might be a successful tactic, or just that it would be the most useful way of getting control over data, who they couldn't just infect. Of course, voyager... blah blah, and its still trying to do the heavy lifting for the writers. Either way, I loved the borg queen just because of how amazingly she was played, and the (at the time) amazing sequence of her introduction.
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Jan 17, 2019 22:37
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I mean they made Picard the king of the borg
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Jan 17, 2019 22:38
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You know, rewatching that scene now, the queen straight up says she is the borg, and criticizes Data's attempts to understand her in human terms when he asks if shes the leader, or controls them. I really feel like, if VOY hadn't so consistently shat all over the borg and kept bringing back the queen and all this dumb poo poo, there wouldn't be nearly the complaints about an otherwise fantastically portrayed villain for a film. At the time, watching it in the theater it was a great reveal, everyone knew "we are the borg" routine, and so this character came out of nowhere shaking up the routine that had come to be expected from them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMt3SzAH_i0
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Jan 17, 2019 22:49
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I'm almost done plowing my way through Voyager. I'm on S7:E22 Homestead. This show got a LOT worse over the past couple of seasons. Most non-Doc/non-Seven episodes are loving awful.
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Jan 17, 2019 22:51
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Cessna posted:Best of Both Worlds seemed to pull it off pretty well. Let me rephrase: "How do you do a dumb action movie with a faceless antagonist?"
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Jan 17, 2019 22:51
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After playing a bunch of Star Trek Bridge Crew with friends, I'm going to watch an entire Star Trek series for the first time. I selected the Next Generation. I'm 8 episodes in and enjoying it. Previously I had only seen random episodes of different Trek series and movies (2,4, First Contact, Nemesis, and the Kelvin movies.) I also enjoyed Galaxy Quest and the Orville. Last night I learned people think Next Generation gets better when Riker grows a beard. What makes it better from season 2 onward? (and what Trek series should I avoid?)
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Jan 17, 2019 22:51
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Spacebump posted:After playing a bunch of Star Trek Bridge Crew with friends, I'm going to watch an entire Star Trek series for the first time. I selected the Next Generation. I'm 8 episodes in and enjoying it. Gene Roddenberry dies and they also get over some hurdles like a writers strike
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Jan 17, 2019 22:53
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The cast and writing gets more assured and confident, starting with season 2 of TNG but really hitting its stride and getting more good episodes than bad during season 3. General recommendations, YMMV: Avoid Voyager (particularly the latter half) and Enterprise unless you really love Star Trek. Avoid Discovery season 1 unless season 2 improves the show significantly, and even then only to get an idea of where they started. Watch the Discovery Short Treks. (They're not all great but they're not terrible, either.)
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Jan 17, 2019 22:56
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Pakled posted:The birthday dinner plot is literally "nobody knows what Reed's favorite food is because he's so goddamn boring and unemotional, go find out what it is" noone loves or has ever loved reed, not even his parents I think the ultimate dunk on reed actually isn’t in that episode but a few weeks later, in the one where he and chuck tucker get stuck in a shuttle and are slowly freezing to death, and reed chooses to spend his last remaining hours recording identical farewell messages confessing his deep feelings to every woman he has ever met
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Jan 17, 2019 23:09
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Spacebump posted:After playing a bunch of Star Trek Bridge Crew with friends, I'm going to watch an entire Star Trek series for the first time. I selected the Next Generation. I'm 8 episodes in and enjoying it. Gene Roddenberry was by the time TNG started up quite senile and was a terrible writer even when he had his wits about him. He and his lawyer exerted too much creative control over the first season, resulting in countless good ideas getting mothballed in favor of light retreads of TOS plots. His lawyer actually violated guild rules by secretly rewriting scripts, and it's unclear whether he did so at Roddenberry's direction. TNG was also working to find a consistent, competent voice in this time period, so early on you'll see shows about taming the dark continent and a left turn into scifi body horror with exploding heads.
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Jan 17, 2019 23:14
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Zesty posted:I don't watch Zombie shows or movies, but do they ever end up having a leader or some poo poo for the same reasoning? No, but then the zombies themselves are rarely the main event. Usually it's more about the relationships between humans in the face of a world-ending disaster. If a zombie film needs a main antagonist, it's almost always a human who is either using the zombies somehow or has gone nuts and become a bigger threat than the walking dead.
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Jan 17, 2019 23:31
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I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with the Borg Queen as used in FC as a direct antagonist created by the Collective specifically to seduce/tempt Data and Picard, or even as a rival for Janeway in Voyager. It’s all the retcons afterward where she’s apparently always been ruler of the Collective that damage the “alienness” of The Borg. Even the little flashback to BOBW in FC is fine if, again, you assume the Queen is only there to tempt Picard.
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Jan 17, 2019 23:58
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with the Borg Queen as used in FC as a direct antagonist created by the Collective specifically to seduce/tempt Data and Picard, or even as a rival for Janeway in Voyager. It’s all the retcons afterward where she’s apparently always been ruler of the Collective that damage the “alienness” of The Borg. Even the little flashback to BOBW in FC is fine if, again, you assume the Queen is only there to tempt Picard. Yeah, I took her to just be a specialized drone the Collective pulls out whenever they feel the illusion of interacting with a singular being is what the current situation calls for. She's no more an avatar of the Borg than any other drone, but sometimes it serves the Collective's purpose to have a face for others to interact with. Why would the Borg feel any compunction against lying if it serves their purpose?
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Jan 18, 2019 00:12
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I don't even think its lying she say "i am the collective".
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Jan 18, 2019 00:15
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I personally like the idea that we are just not getting the relationship at all with our mammal brains, which is actually what she says, and which may or may not be a lie
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Jan 18, 2019 00:26
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The Bloop posted:I personally like the idea that we are just not getting the relationship at all with our mammal brains, which is actually what she says, and which may or may not be a lie I am guilty of thinking in three dimensional terms.
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Jan 18, 2019 00:33
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Whalley posted:Fully agreed. I love First Contact, it's probably my favorite Star Trek movie, but taking it at any level beyond what you see in the movie turns the queen from a cool antagonist to a Really Poor Decision Yeah. It's not a movie that stands up to a ton of analysis but it is a very good Star Trek action movie. Possibly the only one depending on what you consider action. I can forgive not being deep as long as you're fun, and First Contact is a great watch. I appreciate TMP for being extremely Star Trek despite also being like watching paint dry. The Trek movies that both don't have much going on under the hood and are boring are the true turds.
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Jan 18, 2019 00:45
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The Bloop posted:I personally like the idea that we are just not getting the relationship at all with our mammal brains Meanwhile the Jarada are all "come on guys, this Borg queen thing is SO SIMPLE, what don't you get about it?"
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Jan 18, 2019 00:50
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AlBorlantern Corps posted:I mean they made Picard the king of the borg They made Picard the spokesman of the Borg. The Bloop posted:I personally like the idea that we are just not getting the relationship at all with our mammal brains, which is actually what she says, and which may or may not be a lie I want to believe this but it really feels like a BSG "and they have a plan" situation and all the theorycrafting is relying on the fans to patch a hole the writers never figured on repairing themselves (and indeed by Voyager decided to crack open even further).
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Jan 18, 2019 02:02
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Heck, the Founders straight-up say "the drop becomes the ocean and the ocean becomes the drop." Borg Queen is exactly the same.
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Jan 18, 2019 02:03
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The writers can't know They are writing an inscrutable alien other. That doesn't make it a problem as they aren't promising some future payoff
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Jan 18, 2019 02:10
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Sash! posted:Heck, the Founders straight-up say "the drop becomes the ocean and the ocean becomes the drop." Borg Queen is exactly the same. Because the DS9 writers are straight-up better at coming up with lines like that that sound like there's a poetic, alien truth to them instead of ultradeep cyber-goth stingers from your teen Shadowrun campaign. McSpanky fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Jan 18, 2019 |
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Jan 18, 2019 02:16
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Spacebump posted:Last night I learned people think Next Generation gets better when Riker grows a beard. What makes it better from season 2 onward? They told you. The Beard. 
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Jan 18, 2019 02:54
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https://twitter.com/immolations/status/1086050248684961792
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Jan 18, 2019 02:57
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The Bloop posted:^ "she" was there too, she was at Wolf359. I figured the Queen was a strategy the Borg whipped up on the fly while on the Enrerprise to crack Data as another poster mentioned. the fact that when she dies it creates some sort if feedback loop to the collective was either unforseen or unavoidable risk due to the improvisational nature of the plan.
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Jan 18, 2019 02:59
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I am pretty thrilled that we get new episodes of Storm Truck: Delivery tonight.
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Jan 18, 2019 04:06
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Jan 18, 2019 04:44
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Spacebump posted:After playing a bunch of Star Trek Bridge Crew with friends, I'm going to watch an entire Star Trek series for the first time. I selected the Next Generation. I'm 8 episodes in and enjoying it. If you think the show is good in the first 8 episodes of TNG then you are in for a treat when it actually gets good. The Bloop posted:I personally like the idea that we are just not getting the relationship at all with our mammal brains, which is actually what she says, and which may or may not be a lie This smilie isn't for you. It's for hack writers that do this poo poo. 
Zesty fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Jan 18, 2019 |
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Jan 18, 2019 09:37
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The sound engineers on this show are loving amazing. Pike is the best. "Where's my red thing!"
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Jan 18, 2019 10:00
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Oh is that back? Guess I'll watch it.
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Jan 18, 2019 10:04
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Anyone who’s watched on Netflix, is there a S1 recap?
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Jan 18, 2019 10:15
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I'm watching the All Access version and there was a brief recap. Pike's yellow looks really out of place and yet somehow very good on the Discovery bridge. Like he's the only thing that looks good.
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Jan 18, 2019 10:36
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Zesty posted:Like he's the only thing that looks good. Salty
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Jan 18, 2019 10:46
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So the Orville did the Klingon inside a human bit from disco... Discuss
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Jan 18, 2019 11:35
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It's funny she (Orville) was even named Lt Tyler, and they knew people would figure it out so that just pulled the trigger in like the fifth scene she was ever in. No rape flashbacks, random murder, threatening to genocide a planet, or cannibalism though, so it didn't really feel like a prestige drama John Wick of Dogs fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Jan 18, 2019 |
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Jan 18, 2019 12:45
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You want to ease up on the Orville spoilers in the non-Orville thread, chief?
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Jan 18, 2019 12:58
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Oops sorry
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Jan 18, 2019 13:49
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https://twitter.com/WarioDraghi/status/1086083817973186560
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Jan 18, 2019 14:08
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I guess I should remember not to read trek threads if I haven't seen the latest Orville yet.
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Jan 18, 2019 14:35
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