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Quid posted:How's the Wheel of Time series? Anything weird about it that would make we want to avoid it? I just started reading the first one and I like it well enough. It just seems like there's a lot of books and I'd hate to get half way into the series and find out it goes creepy somewhere. I liked the first three Mistborn books so if Sanderson finished it off I should be fine? It leans very hard hard into Men = Mars / Women = Venus philosophy and can come off as quite a bit sexist because of that.
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Feb 8, 2019 12:46
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Quid posted:How's the Wheel of Time series? Anything weird about it that would make we want to avoid it? I just started reading the first one and I like it well enough. It just seems like there's a lot of books and I'd hate to get half way into the series and find out it goes creepy somewhere. I liked the first three Mistborn books so if Sanderson finished it off I should be fine? If you like it then I'd say continue, but personally I think each book is like 200 pages too long. And I don't have an issue with big books, necessarily; I was eager for more after Oathbringer. If you're expecting them to be anything like Sanderson's writing though, I'd suggest you tapper that expectation.
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Feb 8, 2019 13:21
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My take on it was that it comes off, intentionally or not, as a "here's how the world would suck if feminists got their way and emasculated all men" diatribe. Also, hope you like spanking.
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Feb 8, 2019 13:26
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Quid posted:How's the Wheel of Time series? Anything weird about it that would make we want to avoid it? I just started reading the first one and I like it well enough. It just seems like there's a lot of books and I'd hate to get half way into the series and find out it goes creepy somewhere. I liked the first three Mistborn books so if Sanderson finished it off I should be fine? When it comes to women, men are dumb, clueless idiots. When it comes to men, women are bitchy idiots. Thankfully, there's a lot of other poo poo to worry about for the protagonists, so it doesn't take up a too big part of the narrative (YMMV). Imho, the Wheel of Time world is generally a more optimistic setting than Scadrial. Sanderson was a good fit for WoT, there was no explicit sex or rape or too graphic violence even before he took over. And no creepy sexual fetishes, either. Also, there are like three spanking scenes in 14 books. And if you trawl the internet for WoT opinions, you will find feminists who think of it exactly as Data Graham said. And other feminists who saw it as "look how much the world sucks if the patriarchy was reversed, see how much it sucks? do you get the hint?" So your mileage may vary in this as well.
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Feb 8, 2019 13:33
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Torrannor posted:And if you trawl the internet for WoT opinions, you will find feminists who think of it exactly as Data Graham said. And other feminists who saw it as "look how much the world sucks if the patriarchy was reversed, see how much it sucks? do you get the hint?" So your mileage may vary in this as well. Which of these two readings you support probably has a lot to do with how on-the-nose the "men raped the world, they are inherently rapists and must be kept subjugated for the greater good" thing is and whether or not that puts it in the realm of satire/allegory.
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Feb 8, 2019 13:37
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One take I've seen brought up that while all females being stereotypes of what MRA's think women are like is obviously bad, back then just having strong independent women as characters in an epic fantasy series at all was kind of a big deal. It's kind of like someone reading Huckleberry fin today would find it incredibly racist.
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Feb 8, 2019 13:40
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I also kinda thought the whole premise sprung from how there are like no women in Tolkien, so Jordan was all like “hey I know what would be cool, what if 800 women”
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Feb 8, 2019 13:42
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I haven't read about lemon cakes yet but he's definitely wordy. I'll probably give it a book or two and then decide if I keep going or maybe pepper in something else. Thanks for the responses,
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Feb 8, 2019 14:33
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The wheel of time is a good series. Everyone in this thread hates every book they read and complain about every facet. Don't trust us.
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Feb 8, 2019 14:40
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Torrannor posted:Imho, the Wheel of Time world is generally a more optimistic setting than Scadrial. Sanderson was a good fit for WoT, there was no explicit sex or rape or too graphic violence even before he took over. And no creepy sexual fetishes, either. Tell me more about the magic collars that compel a channeler's obedience and the whole power-exchange marriage that Lan and Nynaeve end up in.  Like, it's fair to say that WoT isn't super creepy or anything, but Jordan definitely wrote his kinks.
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Feb 8, 2019 14:45
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Avalerion posted:One take I've seen brought up that while all females being stereotypes of what MRA's think women are like is obviously bad, back then just having strong independent women as characters in an epic fantasy series at all was kind of a big deal. lol that fantasy is so rear end-backwards that it took until 1990 before someone put a girl in a book, and this is seen as a defense
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Feb 8, 2019 15:45
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The_White_Crane posted:Tell me more about the magic collars that compel a channeler's obedience and the whole power-exchange marriage that Lan and Nynaeve end up in. I mean, the magic collars that compel a channeler's obedience are real. The question is, is that a fetish? I never thought so, because there's never an inherent sexual part of that whole business (indeed, said slaveholder react with revulsion at the thought of somebody sleeping with those tainted women), while I had a direct example of magical enslavement with full on rape in another contemporary fantasy series that I read at the time... hello Sword of Truth.
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Feb 8, 2019 15:49
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The_White_Crane posted:Tell me more about the magic collars that compel a channeler's obedience and the whole power-exchange marriage that Lan and Nynaeve end up in. Keeping collared/leashed and enslaved women in kennels is totally the logical progression of the universe's mechanistic rules, and not a creepy fetish at all, god
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Feb 8, 2019 15:49
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Torrannor posted:I mean, the magic collars that compel a channeler's obedience are real. The question is, is that a fetish? I never thought so, because there's never an inherent sexual part of that whole business (indeed, said slaveholder react with revulsion at the thought of somebody sleeping with those tainted women), while I had a direct example of magical enslavement with full on rape in another contemporary fantasy series that I read at the time... hello Sword of Truth. dude chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Feb 8, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 15:51
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Torrannor posted:I mean, the magic collars that compel a channeler's obedience are real. The question is, is that a fetish? I never thought so, because there's never an inherent sexual part of that whole business (indeed, said slaveholder react with revulsion at the thought of somebody sleeping with those tainted women), while I had a direct example of magical enslavement with full on rape in another contemporary fantasy series that I read at the time... hello Sword of Truth. fair warning, I am bringing this post into the Bonfire thread since this thread is full of babies who will melt down if we actually deconstruct it see you there
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Feb 8, 2019 15:54
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Torrannor posted:I mean, the magic collars that compel a channeler's obedience are real. The question is, is that a fetish? I never thought so, because there's never an inherent sexual part of that whole business (indeed, said slaveholder react with revulsion at the thought of somebody sleeping with those tainted women), while I had a direct example of magical enslavement with full on rape in another contemporary fantasy series that I read at the time... hello Sword of Truth. Reacting with revulsion and degrading the object of your attraction is absolutely a fetish.
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Feb 8, 2019 16:17
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its in fact one of the most very basic components of misogyny
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Feb 8, 2019 16:18
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Well, the slaveholders of the collared women must be women themselves, and the woman who makes the comment to a man she initially suspected to be into this kind of thing is confirmed heterosexual, so... But I don't know, hetero power dynamics are very complicated. And since I'm gay, I perhaps can't recognize straight guy's fetishes in text as well as you folks. Since Robert Jordan was a southerner himself, and the Seanchan are clearly a Confederacy analogue, I very much think that was "just" a part of their regular culture. They practice slavery for non-mages, too. There are in fact a lot more non-mage slaves than mage slaves, and the mage slaves are only all female because the male mages are too dangerous to let live, something the protagonist side actually agrees with, even if they agree with nothing else.
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Feb 8, 2019 16:33
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Torrannor posted:Well, the slaveholders of the collared women must be women themselves, and the woman who makes the comment to a man she initially suspected to be into this kind of thing is confirmed heterosexual, so... my friend, if you find yourself arguing that WoT is not littered with Robert Jordan's fetishes, you might need to take a step back
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Feb 8, 2019 16:35
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Torrannor posted:Well, the slaveholders of the collared women must be women themselves, and the woman who makes the comment to a man she initially suspected to be into this kind of thing is confirmed heterosexual, so... are they real women or are they fictional characters in a book written by a man
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Feb 8, 2019 16:37
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If the reading of "damane are not fetish objects" requires you to make the inference of the Seanchan being the Southern US/Confederacy, it is not very convincingly obvious
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Feb 8, 2019 16:38
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even then it's not as if american slavery lacked systemic sexual abuse of the enslaved
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Feb 8, 2019 16:40
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Torrannor posted:I mean, the magic collars that compel a channeler's obedience are real. The question is, is that a fetish? . Yes it is (the above is by definition a positive statement)
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Feb 8, 2019 16:45
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Yes it is this post owns also its literally impossible to address slavery without addressing sexuality. Go to the Bonfire to find out why Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Feb 8, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 16:46
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Wheel of Time is a revolutionary series whose first 3-5 books dramatically re-shaped the fantasy genre. I'm firmly of the belief that it's the second-most influential fantasy series behind Lord of the Rings. While it didn't do a lot that was explicitly new, it blended existing fantasy tropes together in a way that hadn't really been seen before. In a way, it's quite similar to how Star Wars (A New Hope) took elements from multiple genres and made a sci-fi epic that felt completely new and fresh. Unfortunately, Wheel of Time grew bloated and nearly collapsed under its own weight. The pace slowed to a crawl and the popular opinion of the series plummeted starting around Book 7, and while books 4-6 all contained great scenes, it could be argued that it hadn't had a truly great book since The Dragon Reborn. Worse, it was so bloated in books 7-10 that it gave other authors time to take its ideas and run with them to the point that the concepts that made WoT great were trite and overused well before the series itself came to a close. By time the series came out of its slump, it wasn't exciting anymore. The later books felt like they were imitating popular fantasy, where the early books were what popular fantasy imitated. Jordan's death didn't help, although let's be honest: Brandon Sanderson knocked it out of the park. It is no easy thing to take over someone else's life's work, much less do it justice. The series was ultimately brought to a satisfying conclusion, but it was really too late to go out on a high note. There was no way overcome the negative reaction to the bloated middle act of the series or to make its existing concepts fresh and exciting again. Maybe Jordan could have pulled it off, struck lightning twice, but Sanderson--while I love his works--was not and is not a revolutionary author. Today, as seen in this thread, popular opinion of the series has never recovered. Negative opinions abound, and there is absolutely truth to what they're saying. The gender dynamics are more than a little outdated, and most sexual relationships (when they are discussed at all) tend to have some degree of fetishism. Certain character traits are repeated to the point they're ridiculous, pardon me while I tug my braid. But while all that exists--and boy, does it exist--no one ever talks about the good things the series did. So when you hear those, also think of the amazing set pieces, the way homosexuality is treated (aka, it's normal), and the way it blended and subverted fantasy tropes in a way that paved the road for modern fantasy authors.
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Feb 8, 2019 17:01
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ConfusedUs posted:it blended existing fantasy tropes together in a way that hadn't really been seen before. how ConfusedUs posted:the way it blended and subverted fantasy tropes in a way that paved the road for modern fantasy authors. how and before anyone goes "did you read it" yes I did read about a hundred pages of a boy in village dreaming of bigger things only to find out he has a special purpose from a wizard when his village was attacked by monsters it was the most cliche poo poo ever
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Feb 8, 2019 17:04
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 Mod edit: Not Work Safe (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 8, 2019 17:05
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pikachode posted:[timg]https://i.imgur.com/RdzYIKo.jpg[/timg] thought-provoking, blisteringly erotic, life-affirming MOD EDIT: don't quote NWS stuff, thanks Somebody fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Feb 10, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 17:08
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the pseudo-literary idea of "subverting tropes" is the most genre poo poo ever
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Feb 8, 2019 17:10
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the book barn > brandon sanderson: thought-provoking, blisteringly erotic, life-affirming
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Feb 8, 2019 17:11
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ConfusedUs posted:Wheel of Time is a revolutionary series whose first 3-5 books dramatically re-shaped the fantasy genre. I'm firmly of the belief that it's the second-most influential fantasy series behind Lord of the Rings. While it didn't do a lot that was explicitly new, it blended existing fantasy tropes together in a way that hadn't really been seen before. In a way, it's quite similar to how Star Wars (A New Hope) took elements from multiple genres and made a sci-fi epic that felt completely new and fresh. WoT is in desperate need of an abridged version. The scenes that are good are really, really good, but cutting the deadweight would make it such a better series. Jordan would have done very well for himself if he had lived in Victorian England and been paid by the word.
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Feb 8, 2019 17:12
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someone told fantasy nerds once that "subverting tropes" a) meant anything and b) was a positive thing, instead of just signalling fantasy's eternal condemnation to react to tolkien again and again in slightly different ways and its total inability to do anything actually innovative
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Feb 8, 2019 17:13
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Mel Mudkiper posted:and before anyone goes "did you read it" yes I did read about a hundred pages of a boy in village dreaming of bigger things only to find out he has a special purpose from a wizard when his village was attacked by monsters it was the most cliche poo poo ever Did you miss how everyone crosses their arms beneath their breasts That was some groundbreaking poo poo
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Feb 8, 2019 17:17
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subverting tropes in and of itself is not necessarily bad, its just that the nature of how those tropes are "subverted" are always exceedingly superficial such as, the wizard in wheel of time is a woman and hot not a dude and old take that you loving trope, you've just been ~subverted~
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Feb 8, 2019 17:17
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Data Graham posted:Did you miss how everyone crosses their arms beneath their breasts in jordan's writing, even women's unconscious mannerisms draw attention to their sexual attributes
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Feb 8, 2019 17:17
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Also I am hereby enacting a lifetime ban, or perhaps cap, on fantasy authors using the word "bustle" to describe how an innkeeper moves about an inn
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Feb 8, 2019 17:22
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Maybe also ban the anachronistic inns? A constructive suggestion.
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Feb 8, 2019 17:34
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Mel Mudkiper posted:and before anyone goes "did you read it" yes I did read about a hundred pages of a boy in village dreaming of bigger things only to find out he has a special purpose from a wizard when his village was attacked by monsters it was the most cliche poo poo ever Don't get me wrong, I don't love the series... But just to be clear, what you're saying is that you didn't read it?
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Feb 8, 2019 17:35
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Sab669 posted:Don't get me wrong, I don't love the series... But just to be clear, what you're saying is that you didn't read it? if a book cannot justify its own existence in the first hundred pages the reader is under no obligation to continue
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Feb 8, 2019 17:36
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Mel Mudkiper posted:and before anyone goes "did you read it" yes I did read about a hundred pages of a boy in village dreaming of bigger things only to find out he has a special purpose from a wizard when his village was attacked by monsters it was the most cliche poo poo ever The first book is a blatant Lord of the Rings rip-off in almost every way. So is the first Sword of Truth book, for that matter, except significantly creepier.
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Feb 8, 2019 17:36
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