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The only thing I remember about the Vietnam segment is the comedian murdering his babymomma
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Feb 9, 2019 21:57
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The Comedian's toxic outlook on life screws up anyone who is around him, whether co-"worker", daughter, rape survivor, baby momma, you name it. And this ultraviolent Alpha Male, when faced with a true moral quandary, blinks. I think Rorschach is shown to be 10 times the moral figure that the Comedian is. And Rorschach is totally reprehensible. e: the Comedian is metaphorically yet actually that which Jon was framed as: a walking carcinogen that brought death and misery to anyone in his orbit, friend, neutral, or foe Admiralty Flag fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 22:11
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I don't love Watchmen but if you read it six years ago and remember it having any sort of mercy or sympathy or admiration for the Comedian of all people, whatsoever, you should read it again. This isn't meant to be an attempt at a burn or anything-- it's something I unwittingly do all the time, where I drastically misremember something I read ages ago because some small flaw lodged itself in my head and got magnified over time.
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Feb 9, 2019 22:16
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The Comedian is literally the concept of misanthropy made flesh.
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Feb 9, 2019 22:28
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OscarDiggs posted:Maybe not fascist exactly, but "Yay Fascism" is catchier then "Yay Authoritarianism". It's been a while, but from what I remember all of the bad guys are huge Authoritarians and get away with it. The Comedian basically get's absolved for the vile things he did, Dr Manhattan get's to go away to the edge of universe to piss ball about with a new enslaved humanity to mess about with, and Ozymandias get's away with his plans, scot free, which is most of where my pro-fascist reading comes from. The only one opposed to all this get's melted by Manhattan and everyone else is to much of a melt to really care that much. Ozymandias gets away with his plans, but he's left questioning himself and if he did the right thing, and left wondering what Manhattan's final words meant.  For perhaps the first time in his life, the world smartest man is left unsure of himself. He may have gotten away with his plan, but he's going to live with the knowledge that he might not have done the right thing. At least, that's how I've read it.  He might have 'won' but there's an implication he's broken by his own lack of confidence in what he's done.
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Feb 9, 2019 22:42
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Though you also have Rorschach’s ending which gets weird and muddles it a bit
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Feb 9, 2019 22:50
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Admiralty Flag posted:I think Rorschach is shown to be 10 times the moral figure that the Comedian is. And Rorschach is totally reprehensible. Yeah, the bigger knock on the series imo is that so many people walked away from it thinking Rorschach was a hero. I don't really blame Alan Moore for that, since in the text he's pretty clearly not heroic, but I think there's a bit of a Fight Club/Breaking Bad problem where the anti-hero is mistaken by a lot of people as a hero just because he's badass or whatever. It's not Moore's fault that the big two steered into anti-hero grimdark stuff hard after Watchmen either, even if they were inspired by him. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 23:16
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Vandar posted:Ozymandias gets away with his plans, but he's left questioning himself and if he did the right thing, and left wondering what Manhattan's final words meant. Yeah and remember where got his name from: "Look upon my works, ye mighty and despair" is meant to be taken ironically.
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Feb 9, 2019 23:38
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Yeah maybe I will have to read it again and give it a closer read; some of this stuff I'm not recalling and other stuff it seems I've clearly misinterpreted.
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Feb 9, 2019 23:40
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CharlestheHammer posted:Though you also have Rorschach’s ending which gets weird and muddles it a bit Not as much as you'd think. Rorschach is basically The Comedian Redux in a lot of ways. He's a guy who's been so embittered and emotionally cauterized by his war on crime that it's left him a shell of a man, and just like the Comedian, when he's confronted with the depths of horror that Ozymandias has unleashed, he blinks. There's a reason his ending isn't "gently caress you Doctor Manhattan people should know the truth and I'll fight you if you'll try to stop me;" it's him pulling his mask off, with tears running down his face, demanding death. Rorschach used to be the scariest motherfucker around. He never blinked in the face of whatever danger was put in front of him. They were all trapped in prison with him, after all. But he can't be that anymore. He's not the monster everyone should be scared of, not when Ozymandias pulls the poo poo he pulls. And he can't handle that, so he breaks. Honestly the only thing about him that's really redemptive, IMHO, is that he decides to care about finding the Comedian's killer when no one else would; he gives a poo poo, even about that rear end in a top hat. The only people that survive contact with Ozymandias' plot in anything resembling a healthy way are Silk Spectre II and Nite-Owl II - and that's because they found each other. All the Watchmen characters that drive the people around them away and can't find any healthy relationships end up dead (even Rorschach's shrink). It's the people that find each other that find ways to survive. I've always felt like that was a pretty underrated theme to the book.
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Feb 9, 2019 23:59
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Not as much as you'd think. Rorschach is basically The Comedian Redux in a lot of ways. He's a guy who's been so embittered and emotionally cauterized by his war on crime that it's left him a shell of a man, and just like the Comedian, when he's confronted with the depths of horror that Ozymandias has unleashed, he blinks. There's a reason his ending isn't "gently caress you Doctor Manhattan people should know the truth and I'll fight you if you'll try to stop me;" it's him pulling his mask off, with tears running down his face, demanding death.
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Feb 10, 2019 00:21
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Nessus posted:I mean to be fair to Rorschach he just saw Dr. Manhattan get dissolved on the subatomic level and come back twenty seconds later. Dude knew there was no point in throwing a punch. He was basically doing all he could do at that point, which is to throw the truth of what Jon was doing in his face. I always interpreted it as his black and white world view being completely shattered. Yes he knows he can't win against Manhattan, but he also knows that a situation as complex as the one he's in just doesn't work with how he views the world. He knows that he's going to get killed, if not by Manhattan by Ozy, and chooses to go out as close to his own terms as he can get: with a futile symbolic gesture of resistance.
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Feb 10, 2019 00:33
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It's actually an interesting reading to see the way doubt plays into Watchmen. Comedian, for all his nihilism and anger, sees the scope and Adrian's plan and for the first time his dark worldview is reflected directly on him and his self doubt comes out. Rorsrach, for his black and white world view, is shown something evil possibly leading to good and it breaks him into saying he can't go on living in the world if he has to accept this compromise like his only friend does. Nite Owl's post superhero career is all about self doubt. Adrian begins to doubt if his plan will work and if maybe he made a mistake. Also Sally isn't so much forgiving the rape as much as trying to justify it to give herself A reality she can live with. She was a confident young woman who Blake absolutely destroyed and she tried to build herself up again by making excuse after excuse. This isn't the story forgiving Blake but showing the tragic aftermath of his actions. Honestly no one comes away from Watchmen looking good, and if there is one or two characters you are suppose to sympathise with it's Nite Owl and Silk Spectre II who come out of the story less scarred (but still pretty hosed up) than everyone else.
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Feb 10, 2019 02:36
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Vince MechMahon posted:I always interpreted it as his black and white world view being completely shattered. Yes he knows he can't win against Manhattan, but he also knows that a situation as complex as the one he's in just doesn't work with how he views the world. He knows that he's going to get killed, if not by Manhattan by Ozy, and chooses to go out as close to his own terms as he can get: with a futile symbolic gesture of resistance. Ozy had no intention of killing Rorschach. He even states it's fine to let him go, cause very few will believe him if he even makes it back to civilization from the ice fields. Manhattan kills him anyway, and lies about it to Ozy. And I don't think Rorschach knew he was a dead man until he saw Manhattan appear in front of him when he left.
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Feb 10, 2019 03:55
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MonsterEnvy posted:Ozy had no intention of killing Rorschach. He even states it's fine to let him go, cause very few will believe him if he even makes it back to civilization from the ice fields. I've always believed - and I'm not sure how supported it is by the text, to be fair, but it rings true to me - that Jon kills Rorschach for one simple reason - Roeschach asked him to. Jon wasn't eliminating a threat or preserving a plan; he was honoring a request from someone who, once, was something akin to a colleague.
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Feb 10, 2019 07:33
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MonsterEnvy posted:Ozy had no intention of killing Rorschach. He even states it's fine to let him go, cause very few will believe him if he even makes it back to civilization from the ice fields. Is there that much of a distinction between killing someone and letting them wander off in the artic with no transportation wearing only street clothes as a trench coat?
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Feb 10, 2019 08:00
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Vince MechMahon posted:Is there that much of a distinction between killing someone and letting them wander off in the artic with no transportation wearing only street clothes as a trench coat?
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Feb 10, 2019 08:13
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Vince MechMahon posted:Is there that much of a distinction between killing someone and letting them wander off in the artic with no transportation wearing only street clothes as a trench coat?
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Feb 10, 2019 09:37
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Admiralty Flag posted:There was no was Ozy would have let Rorschach live. Dude killed off his own loyal, sequestered butler squad (plus the Comedian, Moloch, the hitman, his secretary, etc.) in defense of his secrets, no way he was letting someone like Rorschach get away. That was to let his plan happen. The plan already happened so killing him accomplishes nothing.
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Feb 10, 2019 12:34
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CharlestheHammer posted:That was to let his plan happen. The plan already happened so killing him accomplishes nothing. Once the truth got out, there'd be zero chance that the USSR would say, "Sure President Nixon, we believe that this beloved public hero did all of this himself without US government backing, tacit approval, or knowledge!" Instead, they'd roll tanks into the Middle East and Germany. Everyone except Rorschach agrees they have to keep their mouths shut to avoid causing a situation worse than the prior status quo.
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Feb 10, 2019 13:33
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https://twitter.com/stjepansejic/status/1094605230203944960?s=19
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Feb 10, 2019 16:29
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lol at the woman in the train station
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Feb 10, 2019 21:59
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Admiralty Flag posted:If the truth about the plan is unimportant after the teleportation happens, then why does Adrian kill his manservants? (True, he poisons them before he activates the teleporter but he could have just given them knockout drops to prevent any possible interference; good butlers are hard to find.) Why does Moore have the entire last page of the comic hinge on the potential threat of Seymour reading the journal? Rorschach is a loony that no one believes or listens to. Veidt even says that is why him leaving makes no difference. Jon tells him that Rorschach went into the Ice Fields and that it's unlikely that he will make it back to civilization. To which Veidt says it's a shame, but does not really change anything.
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Feb 11, 2019 00:38
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That's cute. Croc has been treated much more sympathetically in recent years.
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Feb 11, 2019 00:39
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I just got caught up with Green Lantern. It's...a little awkward. First off, this is like the third time the DC Earth has been shrunken and stolen in the last twelve months. Secondly, "tough cop shoots and kills unrepentant murderer" has always been iffy to me because of, well, real life socio-politics. Also, since when is Green Lantern so full of technobabble?
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Feb 11, 2019 01:06
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Covok posted:I just got caught up with Green Lantern. Going by Deep Space Transmission's Green Lantern annotations, there's a chance that's not really Hal Jordan. But so far it's been fairly disappointing. Morrison's weirdness doesn't stand out all that well in a straight sci-fi setting, and outside of that it feels like it's been leaning into police procedural tropes too much to be really distinct. And while I can appreciate it for trying to approach Green Lantern from that angle, the style of its approach seems cemented 20 years in the past. And even if the above bit of speculation is true, I'm not really sure how that effects the underlying politics of what's depicted. Even if this is "Evil Hal," you still have the other Lanterns like the ones in Issue 4 standing up for his decision. It feels like it's setting up for a "bad apple" argument rather than tracing those actions to any sort of systematic police conduct. And if this IS Hal, you have to take the politics at face value, which...are also bad. This whole business echos back for me to Dick's use of torture in the first arc of Batman & Robin, and not in a good way. Morrison's really hit or miss for me though, so it's possible I'll like the next arc better.
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Feb 11, 2019 02:41
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Covok posted:I just got caught up with Green Lantern. That’s my favorite part. It’s a pretty straight faced sci fi police procedural. You can see shades of this in the Green Lantern parts of Final Crisis. The “Thousand years of super powers, and then I eat the Earth.” was a good lampoon of climate change, and I’m always a sucker for any story featuring a Sun Eater. This is exactly what I was hoping for.
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Feb 11, 2019 03:41
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Arkhams Razor posted:And even if the above bit of speculation is true, I'm not really sure how that effects the underlying politics of what's depicted. Even if this is "Evil Hal," you still have the other Lanterns like the ones in Issue 4 standing up for his decision. It feels like it's setting up for a "bad apple" argument rather than tracing those actions to any sort of systematic police conduct. And if this IS Hal, you have to take the politics at face value, which...are also bad. This whole business echos back for me to Dick's use of torture in the first arc of Batman & Robin, and not in a good way. The story seems to be adeptly having its cake and eating it, too. Odd how the story goes this route when GLC Rebirth recently had Hal ardently decry lethal means. Having said that, The perp was a literal slaver and condemned a space ark of countless children to imminent death by advanced age. gently caress that guy. And then the Guardians jump on Hal for spoiling a larger bust in the process, which also makes sense, so everyone's right. Whee!
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Feb 11, 2019 04:15
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Tom Taylor is currently teasing out his new project and it sounds like it's a DC book https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/status/1095004101530669057?s=19
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Feb 11, 2019 18:07
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DC Eased sounds relaxing 
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Feb 11, 2019 18:26
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I feel like we've had to have heard Superman breaking the jaws of a god at least a couple times by this point though.
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Feb 11, 2019 18:37
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hup posted:lol at the woman in the train station That’s up there with Hawkeye dressed as Hawkeye freaking out to Hawkeye about Deadpool.
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Feb 11, 2019 18:48
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They're finally going to do it. Not content with one or two Titans at a time they're finally going to kill EVERYONE.
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Feb 11, 2019 18:56
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site posted:Tom Taylor is currently teasing out his new project and it sounds like it's a DC book The history of that hashtag is something else.
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Feb 11, 2019 19:02
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X-O posted:They're finally going to do it. Not content with one or two Titans at a time they're finally going to kill EVERYONE. An attack on Titans, you say? Sounds pretty Nazi!
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Feb 11, 2019 20:49
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https://twitter.com/ConroyForReal/status/1095102851833946113
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Feb 12, 2019 00:51
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Oxford comma is the true path, but has this thrown MoS' world into disarray
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Feb 12, 2019 01:03
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site posted:Oxford comma is the true path, but has this thrown MoS' world into disarray Oxford comma is dumb, if I think you're claiming Ayn Rand and God are your parents you wrote a bad sentence.
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Feb 12, 2019 01:06
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...what?
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Feb 12, 2019 01:08
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| # ? Apr 28, 2024 16:11 |
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site posted:...what? One of the common examples for why the Oxford comma is necessary is the sentence "I'd like to thank my parents, Ayn Rand, and God."
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Feb 12, 2019 01:10
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