violent sex idiot posted:fully real, a bad guy tinker with a cutting power and using data from another dudes power that lets him throw his extremities around built a whip that cuts people to bits and leaves them alive and able to feel all of the bits and all of the pain of the bits and used it to cripple a shitload of people because hes awful. he cut the better part of tattletale to kidnap and basically torture information out of her lol this cannot be serious
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Mar 25, 2019 00:44
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I like reading Ward spoilers because every time I do it makes me feel better about choosing to stop.
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Mar 25, 2019 02:14
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Gitro posted:I like reading Ward spoilers because every time I do it makes me feel better about choosing to stop. Dittooooo. At this point I need someone to do summaries a la this dude's takedown of the Wheel of Time series: https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/77089-the-wheel-of-time-summaries-by-isam-spoilers-till-book-cot/ edit: Actually, this is what I was looking for! I used to love these so much: http://www.rinkworks.com/bookaminute/sff.shtml
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Mar 25, 2019 02:16
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in fairness thinking up a zillion unique super powers isn't exactly easy. there's bound to be a few duds
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Mar 25, 2019 02:26
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It's not so much the power being a dud as it is the sheer senseless brutality and torture-porn nature of it. Even just a "I can knock you out until I turn it off" button would serve the same purpose without putting two dozen characters in immense amounts of pain for no reason. I mean, I guess you can't build a FLESH COCOON if you do that, but uh. I'm okay with that.
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Mar 25, 2019 02:31
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sunken fleet posted:in fairness thinking up a zillion unique super powers isn't exactly easy. there's bound to be a few duds Very much a self-inflicted problem, and also what Nighthand said.
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Mar 25, 2019 02:34
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I'm waiting for Wildbow's finishing notes on Ward because my overall impression of it, and some of the words I've heard along the serial grapevine, are that he's really not enjoying writing it.
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Mar 25, 2019 02:43
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eh I'm not current with ward but looking at their previous works no amount of fate-worse-than-death type body horror from wildbow will shock me by now. I think anyone who is more than passingly familiar with their body of work should know to expect it at this point.
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Mar 25, 2019 04:08
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Expecting it is a major part of the problem.
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Mar 25, 2019 04:24
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The problems with Ward all stem from Victoria being defined as an allegorical rape victim. In Worm, Taylor viewed her enemies as bullies, and this helped tie them into her trauma. In Ward, McCrae apparently wants to tie the villains into the protagonist's trauma again, but he's doing so by making them varying stripes of allegorical rapist (and in quite a few cases, non-allegorical rapists). This is creepy and unpleasant and brings out the author's worst tendencies.
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Mar 25, 2019 04:56
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Gitro posted:Expecting it is a major part of the problem. I feel like this is at the core of Ward's issues, what fans expect and want versus what Wildbow wants.
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Mar 25, 2019 04:58
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It also always felt to me like there were some difficulties in the planning/storyboarding phase. Like, if you take a WB story and cut out every tangential fight scene, every non-pertinent conversation, every fun side bit, and essentialized it down to only the core beats that were absolutely necessary to tell the story, Worm would still make a pretty decent 100-200k word novel. Pact does especially well on this front, since it actually did a great job of telling a coherent story. Twig would probably lose about half of its length off the bat and trim off a lot more during editing, but there's still a structurally sound story hiding in there, with a beginning, middle, and end. For Ward, what the heck is the story? The multi-hundred-thousand word thing about nazis went nowhere and never came up again, kenzie's backstory was probably the best part of the book but it was completely optional, the whole "let's do a private superhero business startup" thing never even got of the runway, they just kinda did it for a few arcs and then infinite money appeared. There's good and bad in every arc, sure, but it feels like 90% of Ward isn't required to tell its story. Like, as best I can tell, the entire story of Ward to date is basically Victoria is still badly traumatized and not dealing with it well. Other super-kids need help too, and she's in a position to provide it so she joins their team. A girl in a rabbit mask wants to wake up time-stopped superheroes for reasons that are established to be nonsensical and pointless within chapters of being explained. As far as I can tell, that's it. I wonder if Ward wouldn't have been better-served as a series of standalone novellas- if he had just gone "Okay, here's the nazi story, here's the child abuse story, here's the story of that time google translate conspired to rape and kidnap his brother," and so forth. The lack of narrative connective tissue would utterly cease to exist as a problem, he'd get to write interesting stories about random stuff in his setting, and fans would get the cool fights/grimdark/body horror stuff that they like without having to sit through the pointless, meandering tedium that telling this as a single story has become.
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Mar 25, 2019 08:15
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violent sex idiot posted:fully real, a bad guy tinker with a cutting power and using data from another dudes power that lets him throw his extremities around built a whip that cuts people to bits and leaves them alive and able to feel all of the bits and all of the pain of the bits and used it to cripple a shitload of people because hes awful. he cut the better part of tattletale to kidnap and basically torture information out of her  Jesus christ this is some loving Stimpire poo poo.
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Mar 25, 2019 08:26
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A big flaming stink posted:
Also, we just got an entire chapter of flashback that shows his origin story being that he was a sociopath who had a really bad time in high school.
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Mar 25, 2019 08:57
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Why does it always come back to body horror and bully revenge fantasies with this guy.
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Mar 25, 2019 09:01
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Omi no Kami posted:Also, we just got an entire chapter of flashback that shows his origin story being that he was a sociopath who had a really bad time in high school. No no you can't be serious
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Mar 25, 2019 09:09
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Why do goons keep reading wildbow? There's a lot of better stuff out there. Like, you can just stop reading thinly veiled torture porn.
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Mar 25, 2019 09:09
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I don't, I just make attempts to convince people Wildbow Bad
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Mar 25, 2019 09:12
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Flesnolk posted:I don't, I just make attempts to convince people Wildbow Bad Carry on fighting the good fight.
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Mar 25, 2019 09:14
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Like why the gently caress would you go to such incredible lengths to invent the circumstances in your plot that allows you to torture your characters over and over again. The lengths you have to go to justify it in the plot, the sheer number of words devote to it. Is it just because Wildbow has no idea how to evoke pathos in his audience without putting his characters through immense suffering? e: ok I forgot how loving  this poo poo was. only read this if you want to revel at the perfect union of torture porn and bad writing.In the last 500 years, the Fourth Stimpire has dominated four systems, which it has united into one starzone, Stimsis. The Fourth Stimpire has origins from the Ten Empire War in which 10 of the United Stimpires revolted against each rules. All empires except for the fourth swore freedom upon their citizens. There is no free speech in the Fourth Stimpire, and all self-controlled transportation has been made illegal without undergoing painful medical verification methods, in which arteries are severed without pain resistant, operated entirely by machines. The way they work claim to be the most hygenic and healthy way possible, but these machines often rub against pain points, causing great deals of pain to patients. The heart is then extracted from the body and placed into a glass grinding machine. Various energy centers are also dissected and replaced with dangerous transplants. After the painful, 52 hour surgical procedure, patients will then have to use a fused guidance tool, which pumps painful resistors into the body every 2 hours. The pain they have caused is so bad, the victim would freeze in a tense position. They would then collapse afterwards. Sexual stimulation in any way within the grounds of the Fourth Stimpire is strictly prohibited, and anyone detected even touching their sexual organs will be subjected to a penectomy or if the offender was a female, they would then have a razor inserted into their ovaries. They would pump a blue solution into the womb until the stitchings burst. Offenders would also be forced to show their operated areas in public, and they would always harass and punch them to a pulp, against their will. Otherwise, offenders would be tazed with the worst type of electricity in the systematic district, causing so much pain, the victim would scream and flail in madness. The pain would also triple every second, but no death would be incurred. This is also used in combat against enemy units, which is why all UEE forces must wear the upgraded suit to block this effect. However, enertainment is also questionable in UEE grounds. Sporting events end with the losing team being rounded into a grinder and shredded on live television, boxing matches end with the loser having their hands removed without anasthesia, flight races would end with the losers having their arms and legs removed, then being injected with insanity, for entertainment. People are also forced into these events, by undergoing a painful 127 hour procedure which involves tweaking the muscles so they will not listen to brain commands, and then having a painful drug injected which also causes madness if the player is not sporting. This is all for entertainment, and anyone not watching any of it during sporting times and cheering for the winning team, they will be imprisoned into galactic camps. Snuff films are also broadcast, and actors are actually murdered just for entertainment. Stealth droids also guide these forced actors into behaving exactly as the director dreams, otherwise they will be punished by being placed into a macerator and having their execution written into the film. Any film that does not feature someone being murdered will be burned and the entire crew behind it will be executed in the most grotesque way possible - vivisection. All executions are broadcast, and anyone who misses even a millisecond, even by blinking, will be executed. All citizens must boo to the person being executed, and the family is gathered to be injected with eternators, which cause pain forever, making them immoral but feeling the pain tenfold every millisecond. They cannot pass out, but they will feel like it forever. Conquests by this Stimpire end in the planet being razed, and all the citizens being executed in the same way as their citizens are. The planet is then destroyed and all remnants of it are removed, and any memories of it will be erased instantly from civil minds. People who are also killed are also erased from memories, and all memories of them, including toys and pictures, are destroyed. Prisoners undergo 40,000 years of relentless and endless labor, and anyone not complying is sentenced to the eternator injection. All prisoners injected with eternators are placed into capsules and launched into far space, then the room is closed tight to ensure maximum insanity. Some prisoners are also subjected to the removal of blood, the lungs, the liver, the genitals, the skeleton, the muscles, the eyes, and even the injection of pressure. Prisoners sentenced to pressure chambers are locked in until they are inflated to a high level. The decompression is then stopped to make sure they are inflated and uncomfortable. Children born on the 14th of July are subjected to the removal of their skeleton and an implant of a silver liquid to replace it. The nervous sysem is also injected in various parts to ensure it is five times more sensitive than the average. Restaurants also are ordered to serve civil meat, and anyone attending must give themself up to be cooked into a grotesque meal. They are cooked alive, undergoing extreme pain, and are then subjected to industrial grinders and blenders. The Stimpire orders at least 1 million citizens to be dispatched every day, as they are afraid the population may overthrow them. But only one planet is cared for, and the rest are banned from eating, drinking, talking, using technology, touching anyone, wearing unauthorized clothes, touching buildings, or walking a centimeter out of designated routes. Civil enforcers are on every planet, and they are engineered so that they are 40 times larger than the 300 quadrillion population. At least 7 billion die every 12 hours under this rule. Thoughts are also surveyed, and anyone who does not think anything to loving the Stimpire with more than their capabilities will be sentenced to a prison. Prisoners who are punished for this violation will meet their greatest fear, only to have it amplified so they will turn insane as they imagine it exactly as they fear it. They then undergo a painful extraction of all fluids, to be replaced by a toxin which causes permanent irritation. The unknown substance keeps the subject aging normally, except they will never die. Prisoners punished in this way are unable to be reverted, despite many efforts, and they will never be able to be disposed. The sickening truths have been revealed only today, and invigilation teams are still investigating the truths without setting foot in the galactic space of this sickening empire. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Mar 25, 2019 |
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Mar 25, 2019 09:22
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What even is that
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Mar 25, 2019 09:29
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Anias posted:Why do goons keep reading wildbow?
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Mar 25, 2019 09:29
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I stopped reading Ward when they went to parlay with Goddess. It felt too much like doing work, but not productively. Outside of a couple of small pieces, I was getting very little out of it for the effort I was putting in. Most of it was tedious and/or miserable.
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Mar 25, 2019 09:29
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The body horror stuff arises from it being one of the things people say that Wildbow is really good at. That's why he includes it, and Ward as a whole seems like Wildbow is just really leaning into what his hardcore fans want and expect.Anias posted:Why do goons keep reading wildbow? Years of self-radicalisation?
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Mar 25, 2019 09:30
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Flesnolk posted:What even is that Star citizen fanfiction
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Mar 25, 2019 09:32
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Jackard posted:Yeah I peaced out when the Slaughterhouse clones showed up It's unfortunate that the S9000 arc is how it is because the stuff that happens at the end of the arc, kicking Worm into its endgame, is really quite good.
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Mar 25, 2019 09:32
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:No no you can't be serious Dude, I am super serious. To WB's credit, it wasn't "School made Cradle," it's more "Cradle was a pretty nasty guy to begin with. Let's watch high school suck for him, then jump back to his hiding in a flesh cocoon made up of the body parts of everyone's still-living friends." Omi no Kami fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Mar 25, 2019 |
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Mar 25, 2019 09:34
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A big flaming stink posted:Like why the gently caress would you go to such incredible lengths to invent the circumstances in your plot that allows you to torture your characters over and over again. The lengths you have to go to justify it in the plot, the sheer number of words devote to it. Is it just because Wildbow has no idea how to evoke pathos in his audience without putting his characters through immense suffering?
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Mar 25, 2019 09:41
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violent sex idiot posted:fully real, a bad guy tinker with a cutting power and using data from another dudes power that lets him throw his extremities around built a whip that cuts people to bits and leaves them alive and able to feel all of the bits and all of the pain of the bits and used it to cripple a shitload of people because hes awful. he cut the better part of tattletale to kidnap and basically torture information out of her Ok thanks. Honestly I was hoping it was just a meme I didn't get. This sounds like the S9 stuff in worm which was the worst part and mostly unnecessary given how compelling the other characters and plots were. Or maybe I'm misjudging it and in the context of the story it's cool and good. Thanks anyway.
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Mar 25, 2019 10:18
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I keep seeing these opinions about ward, and it baffles me a little because people act like it is something new. The torture-horror-porn was present from the earliest parts of worm and it was always one of the things where you could see him trying too hard.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:51
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Lot 49 posted:Ok thanks. It is the same as worm, lots of compelling characters, plots and ideas ( better realized in my opinion), but with a rather shoddy execution and a double-downing of a series of relevant issues posters here have mentioned. It can probably be attributed to some stubborness on the author's part and trying to meet expectations of a fanbase that hates change.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:00
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Kefahuchi_son!!! posted:I keep seeing these opinions about ward, and it baffles me a little because people act like it is something new. The torture-horror-porn was present from the earliest parts of worm and it was always one of the things where you could see him trying too hard. Well worm was his first 'proper' story I think and while you are right that the torture porn stuff is present and weakens the work as a whole you have to make allowances for relatively new writers to experiment and see what works and what they are good at so they can get better. As a big fan of worm I was hoping that ward (his fourth story I think) would show that development and the S9 style psychos with superpowers would have all been replaced by characters with more nuance and depth which I think he has proven he can also write. If that's not the case then I'm a bit sad, especially if it's because of pressure from his fanbase, but whatever I'll still read it when it's finished and if it's half as good as worm I'll enjoy it. Although what that one guy said about there being no real story is a bit worrying, from a pure plot perspective worm was great and I could always get through the stuff that made my eyes roll because I was so eager to find out what would happen next.
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Mar 25, 2019 13:02
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Kefahuchi_son!!! posted:I keep seeing these opinions about ward, and it baffles me a little because people act like it is something new. The torture-horror-porn was present from the earliest parts of worm and it was always one of the things where you could see him trying too hard. I'd hope that after like 3(?) million words and Twig being body horror: the setting he'd have worked that impulse out a bit. I don't think anyone was acting like it's new, more expressing surprise at how dire it is in ward.
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Mar 25, 2019 15:41
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"this body horror genre writer keeps writing body horror and im mad as heck about it" -you
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Mar 25, 2019 16:01
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It's interesting seeing people so down on the torture porn, I never felt it was an issue in any of Worm/Ward myself. I say that despite being currently bored with Ward (courtesy of the like 10 chapter long fight scene as someone who hates reading Wildbow's fight scenes) and being someone who doesn't consume any other works with body horror, torture, etc at all and actively disliking horror movies and the like, so I'm not exactly the target audience. The Tattletale thing was like the mildest application of that edgy power too, she basically acts like she doesn't care about it because she's Tattletale and that's what she does.
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Mar 25, 2019 16:19
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Lot 49 posted:Well worm was his first 'proper' story I think and while you are right that the torture porn stuff is present and weakens the work as a whole you have to make allowances for relatively new writers to experiment and see what works and what they are good at so they can get better. As a big fan of worm I was hoping that ward (his fourth story I think) would show that development and the S9 style psychos with superpowers would have all been replaced by characters with more nuance and depth which I think he has proven he can also write. If that's not the case then I'm a bit sad, especially if it's because of pressure from his fanbase, but whatever I'll still read it when it's finished and if it's half as good as worm I'll enjoy it. Although what that one guy said about there being no real story is a bit worrying, from a pure plot perspective worm was great and I could always get through the stuff that made my eyes roll because I was so eager to find out what would happen next. I have read wildbow only in the past 2 years or so, and i'm somewhat biased in my reading of his work in that even from the start i treated it as a kind of pulpish soap-opera, good for what it is, entertaining with some heartfelt moments, but without great expectations of exciting developments in their writing prowess. For what is worth i think the characters in general are much better realized in ward and much more of a focus, and, for better or for worse, what dictates its pacing, not an overall plot. Some people don't like the meandering style and "thousands" of things happening, without having one single external issue being the "main one", but for me I think the journey, however bumpy, has been interesting and engaging.
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Mar 25, 2019 17:33
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the worm universe is just another story that fell victim to the "great worldbuilding, terrible execution" syndrome. and for the same reason as most of them: the escalation problem. this is the dbz thing where, no matter what, the power levels must go up and the next enemy must be even more dangerous (or, for wildbow, even more body-horror) than the last enemy. inexperienced authors end up creating premises that work really well as small-scale settings for small-scale stories, and then they shove their dumb high-stakes poo poo into a structure that just can't contain it
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Mar 25, 2019 17:36
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Gitro posted:I'd hope that after like 3(?) million words and Twig being body horror: the setting he'd have worked that impulse out a bit. It seems to me wildbow wears it like a badge now, as a indissociable part of his style. I suppose the readership being what it is, it's one of the things he gets constantly praised by, and trying constantly to appeal to that segment has sadly made some passages look like caricatures of his worst moments.
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Mar 25, 2019 17:44
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On the plus side, maybe he'll dial back on it somewhat after this. I've been seeing a lot of pretty negative feedback along the lines of what we've been saying both in his comments and in his Reddit, so maybe he'll take it to heart. Or maybe not, who knows.
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Mar 25, 2019 18:25
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He basically has a nervous breakdown whenever he receives criticism, however mild, so that won’t happen. Everyone in this thread should go read real books instead. Myself included.
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Mar 25, 2019 19:07
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