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ruddiger posted:Which scene is this? Which gunship? The US army gunship? Because there are no civilians on the streets when that happens (at 2:10) The whole restaurant is full of people cowering. So is the bank (although you only see them in a flash). Yet what is at stake in this scene is not "How is Superman going to save all these people?" but rather "How is Superman going to win this fight?" Faora-ul (that's her name? yeesh) talks a lot about being an evolutionary superior because she doesn't care about these people's lives and "For every human you save, we'll kill a million more" but if Superman is concerned about the welfare of anyone but the one soldier, he doesn't act on it. The military doesn't give a poo poo about the lives of the people in the surrounding businesses; they've got a helicopter gunship strafing the place and then a bomber dropping missiles in the middle of the street. Superman is as focused on defeating his foes by any means necessary as they are, which is a sharp contrast with earlier in the film when he saved even someone who hated him from the sinking bus. I don't think it's intentional, in any case, just careless and as fixated on superheroes-as-supercops as the people Snyder criticizes.
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Mar 27, 2019 01:43
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So when he takes time out of his fight to save someone, even though he is already pretty much losing the fight and this could risk him losing, more damage being done, etc., why doesn't it doesn't count as focusing on saving Martman fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 01:45
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Martman posted:So when he takes time out of his fight to save someone, even though he is already pretty much losing the fight and this could risk him losing, more damage being done, etc., why doesn't it doesn't count as focusing on saving civilians? I'm not criticizing Superman's decisions; he's not a real person and I'm not invested in redeeming the character. I'm criticizing the decision to create this entire scene. All of the elements are here for a story focused on saving people, but instead it's a story about Superman pummeling the bad people. All of the heroic, showy moments are Superman beating the holy hell out of the Kryptonians. Snyder has framed Superman as a soldier here, acting in solidarity with the other soldiers, not a rescuer. The plight of the civilians is barely considered.
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Mar 27, 2019 01:51
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Cease to Hope posted:The whole restaurant is full of people cowering. So is the bank (although you only see them in a flash). Yet what is at stake in this scene is not "How is Superman going to save all these people?" but rather "How is Superman going to win this fight?" Faora-ul (that's her name? yeesh) talks a lot about being an evolutionary superior because she doesn't care about these people's lives and "For every human you save, we'll kill a million more" but if Superman is concerned about the welfare of anyone but the one soldier, he doesn't act on it. Superman literally saves the one guy that needed saving in that scene. I mean, yeah, the military is being portrayed bloodthirsty (and realistically), but that's not the argument, the argument is that Superman doesn't save anyone from the negligent army men, but use your eyeballs. There are literally no civilians on the streets in those scenes to save. Do you want him to stand in front of the bank and protect the bank (which is probably the safest building to be in, considering how much value we put in the things that are vaulted there)? I mentioned that we do now know the location of the IHOP in relation to the gunship later on as Superman gets forcefully tossed an unknown but very large distance out of the restaurant. He also didn't bring the fight to the area, he's constantly playing on the defense and despite that, he still manages to save the one dude he saw who was in immediate danger, which goes back to the beginning of the scene where it opens up with the kryptonian woman condemning him for the ideals and actions you claim he lacks. quote:Snyder has framed Superman as a soldier here, acting in solidarity with the other soldiers, not a rescuer. The plight of the civilians is barely considered. This is all kinds of wrong. He's literally being attacked by two opposing armies, one side verbally condemns him for being empathetic to civilians, the other side shoots at him without thought of possible civilians nearby. He saves the soldiers despite their lust for war, not because of it. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 01:53
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I just see it as very consistent with the same issues people are talking about with Batman in BvS. Violence is not safe. The scene is about how little control Superman has, because he's only barely begun to learn how to be a superhero. He's on the defensive (while still managing to take time to save someone at significant risk to himself) and barely managing the situation. I feel like your argument leads to a strange implication that it's bad to have a scene where the bad guys are attacking the good guy and won't stop to let him save people, because that's mean of them or something. EDIT: Mel Mudkiper posted:The fact it under-performed by both internal predictions and comparative films in the same era and genre and even within the same brand? Martman fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 01:58
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ruddiger posted:Superman literally saves the one guy that needed saving in that scene. I mean, yeah, the military is being portrayed bloodthirsty (and realistically), but that's not the argument, the argument is that Superman doesn't save anyone from the negligent army men, but use your eyeballs. There are literally no civilians on the streets in those scenes to save. Do you want him to stand in front of the bank and protect the bank (which is probably the safest building to be in, considering how much value we put in the things that are vaulted there)? I think the issue is framing the fight as a conscious decision by the characters and not a symbol of the ever ongoing escalation of violence and the alienation from our own sense of empathy that it creates. Whether Superman could, should, did, or didn't save anyone is missing the larger issue that scene is emblematic of a toxic trend in our entertainment to create spectacle of devastation to the point we now gleefully witness annihilation at an unimaginable level as "popcorn entertainment" The question is not "why didn't/did superman fight in Metropolis/Smallville" The question is, why is the total devastation of urban and rural areas at this point seen as necessary for a superhero film to be "thrilling"
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Mar 27, 2019 02:02
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The question is not "why didn't/did superman fight in Metropolis/Smallville" The question is, why is the total devastation of urban and rural areas at this point seen as necessary for a superhero film to be "thrilling"
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Mar 27, 2019 02:05
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ruddiger posted:Superman literally saves the one guy that needed saving in that scene. I mean, yeah, the military is being portrayed bloodthirsty (and realistically), but that's not the argument, the argument is that Superman doesn't save anyone from the negligent army men, but use your eyeballs. There are literally no civilians on the streets in those scenes to save. Do you want him to stand in front of the bank and protect the bank (which is probably the safest building to be in, considering how much value we put in the things that are vaulted there)? The argument is that Snyder emphasizes that where they're fighting is full of civilians - actual civilians, not soldiers - including someone Clark saved at significant personal expense. Faora-Ul emphasizes that the difference between her and Superman is that Superman cares about the fate of these civilians. However, Superman's caring for these civilians is expressed by beating the holy hell out of the Kryptonians for their sake, not saving them from the disaster that is a huge battle in the middle of a populated area. Snyder conceives of Superman as alike with the indiscriminately destructive soldiers (who later learn true martial heroism by his example), but barely cares about the fate of the civilians in the scene. All of your rationalizing of Superman's behavior is framing him as a just soldier doing his best (contrasted with the US military's indiscriminate soldiers) rather than a guy who saves people from disasters, but the preceding half of the movie was about Clark being the guy who saves people from disasters. Why did Snyder turn Clark the rescuer into Superman the soldier?
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Mar 27, 2019 02:07
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Martman posted:Is, for instance, killing half of life in the universe that much proportionally worse than the portrayal of devastation in Man of Steel? I would argue the film deliberately de-emphasizes the spectacle of that event, but its not like Marvel is innocent see: Avengers 1 and 2. The question is why do we need to see unprecedented human suffering in a perspective that removes the intimacy of that same human tragedy in order to feel entertained
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Mar 27, 2019 02:11
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I think you're not acknowledging Superman's role in the movie as a revolutionary. It's true he's not just there to save people, and I think the movie presents him as someone doing more: fighting the systems that would (either eventually or quickly) turn Earth into Krypton. This is inherently violent, yes, and I think that's why it's bold. But it is a far cry from presenting him as a "good soldier."quote:The question is why do we need to see unprecedented human suffering in a perspective that removes the intimacy of that same human tragedy in order to feel entertained Martman fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 02:12
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There's a scene where Clark faces off with a jerk in a bar, and clearly wants to beat the poo poo out of him but can't. That's the precursor to Clark facing this other scenario where assholes are acting up in his region. Beyond that, this argument makes absolutely no sense to the point where it's undiscussable. How does getting into a brawl make you a soldier? What? What does "saving them" in this context even mean? Moving them out into the desert? Building them a bunker?
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Mar 27, 2019 02:16
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Martman posted:I think you're not acknowledging Superman's role in the movie as a revolutionary. It's true he's not just there to save people, and I think the movie presents him as someone doing more: fighting the systems that would (either eventually or quickly) turn Earth into Krypton. This is inherently violent, yes, and I think that's why it's bold. But it is a far cry from presenting him as a "good soldier." Revolutionaries are still soldiers. The movie never considers any option for dealing with the Kryptonians other than martial strength. In practice, that means not only killing the Kryptonians, but annihilating any possibility that there might be any other Kryptonians besides Superman. josh04 posted:There's a scene where Clark faces off with a jerk in a bar, and clearly wants to beat the poo poo out of him but can't. And his rage is symbolized by bizarre excess; it's disturbing and hateful.  Why does a movie that symbolizes Clark's fury like this later have Superman defeat evil and save Earth with his fury? Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 02:16
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Cease to Hope posted:The argument is that Snyder emphasizes that where they're fighting is full of civilians - actual civilians, not soldiers - including someone Clark saved at significant personal expense. Faora-Ul emphasizes that the difference between her and Superman is that Superman cares about the fate of these civilians. However, Superman's caring for these civilians is expressed by beating the holy hell out of the Kryptonians for their sake, not saving them from the disaster that is a huge battle in the middle of a populated area. Snyder conceives of Superman as alike with the indiscriminately destructive soldiers (who later learn true martial heroism by his example), but barely cares about the fate of the civilians in the scene. Name one soldierly thing superman does.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:18
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Cease to Hope posted:Revolutionaries are still soldiers. The movie never considers any option for dealing with the Kryptonians other than martial strength. In practice, that means not only killing the Kryptonians, but annihilating any possibility that there might be any other Kryptonians besides Superman.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:20
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ruddiger posted:Name one soldierly thing superman does. When confronted with an indiscriminately destructive force in an area full of civilians, he confronts that force head-on rather than mitigating the disaster.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:21
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ie he doesn't go for the Goku gambit
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Mar 27, 2019 02:23
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Martman posted:The movie, and Superman, strongly considers the option of not killing Zod. In fact he desperately tries to avoid having to do it. Remember, I'm saying this movie isn't consistent! Cease to Hope posted:Synder just omits [the fantasy of being able to do violence without killing] entirely, but still expects you to care deeply about it: eg MOS's ending, where killing Zod is suddenly a huge moment when Superman has spent most of the last hour trying his level best to beat Zod and his subordinates to death.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:27
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Killing Zod is genocide.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:28
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Cease to Hope posted:When confronted with an indiscriminately destructive force in an area full of civilians, he confronts that force head-on rather than mitigating the disaster. But he doesn't do that. He's not confronting. He's defending. Guess who he's defending? Here's a hint, it's the subject of the female kryptonians rant in the beginning of the scene.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:29
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josh04 posted:Killing Zod is genocide. It's genocide because Superman annihilated any other hope of saving the Kryptonian people earlier in the film, without nearly the same sort of emphasis on the tragedy. ruddiger posted:But he doesn't do that. He's not confronting. He's defending. He is defending them in the way a soldier would, rather than the way Clark has been saving people from disasters all movie.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:30
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Superman can't save people like he does without his ridiculous comic super speed, which he explicitly does not have in the Snyder movies. It's similar to how Batman can only save everyone that he feels like in comics because he can dodge bullets, jump 30 feat into the air, bench press 3 tons, and do ridiculously silly martial arts, including alien ones. Nolan and Snyder removed their most ridiculous aspects to ground them enough to cause a constant sense of pressure around them and to make them more human and vulnerable. Even Superman's great emotional choice in Superman 1 is mostly based on him spending too much time sitting around talking to people instead of stopping missiles. If Snyder Superman tries to use his speed to save someone in half of the situations in the movie, he'll just end up smashing them through a wall or something. You might not personally like a (Year One) Superman being in that position, but I liked the removal of his most hard to write around ability. Superman is envisioned as a guy that wants to do good...but everything he has as a power is basically built to be a weapon. He bursts forward like a rocket. He tries to use his super strength and breaks stuff in half because he doesn't have "tactile telekinesis." His heat vision explodes out his eyes like crazy,and even when he's healing people, it's extremely painful to them. When he flies, he's taking off like a rocket and causing sonic booms. And that's why the Kryptonian military absolutely relished their abilities. Even though I never liked how the shot was framed, that's also why I liked at the very end, he was finally flying kind of gently when Zod was relishing ripping off his armor and tearing up everything; it was a nice try at representing him learning to work around his weaponization (compare to him first just smashing Zod through the town in anger).
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Mar 27, 2019 02:30
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Human beings have been invested in destruction, adventure, conquest, and triumph for as long as we’ve been telling stories. Gilgamesh, Arthur, and Beowulf were royalty, the reappropriator of wealth for the poor that was Robin Hood we’re royalty. This poo poo isn’t new, and it’s only scaled up as our technology and imaginations have made larger explosions possible. This poo poo is as old as fire.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:30
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josh04 posted:Killing Zod is genocide. Genocide is killing a lot of people; that was the humans and Kryptonians doing that, with the military being responsible for genociding the Kryptonians.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:33
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Cease to Hope posted:When confronted with an indiscriminately destructive force in an area full of civilians, he confronts that force head-on rather than mitigating the disaster. Touche
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Mar 27, 2019 02:33
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Cease to Hope posted:It's genocide because Superman annihilated any other hope of saving the Kryptonian people earlier in the film, without nearly the same sort of emphasis on the tragedy. Well there's your mistake right there, you don't know what a soldier is. Soldiers don't defend. They attack and enforce. And I just want to point out that you're still flat out wrong about your civilians threatened by the gunship post, despite the mental gymnastics you want to jump through to bend your take.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:35
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Darko posted:Superman can't save people like he does without his ridiculous comic super speed, which he explicitly does not have in the Snyder movies. The clip ruddiger linked has both Superman and Faora-Ul flying across the screen faster than the eye can see. In particular, consider this moment. Superman has just been thrown through two buildings full of civilians, but he's heroically on the attack, until Large Kryptonian intervenes and slams him into the pavement. I think it's revealing of what Snyder considers Superman to be: someone who fights bad people as best he can, rather than someone who saves people from a disaster. I don't think this is necessarily an inappropriate characterization of Superman compared to the context of every other Superman story (although it does sort of play into the superhero-as-supercop conception), but it is inconsistent with who Clark was before he put on the suit. Is that inconsistency intent? Is it reflective of how Snyder sees superheroes versus the concept of superpowers? Is it just carelessness? ruddiger posted:Soldiers don't defend. They attack and enforce. He's pummeling the Kryptonians with his fists, apparently without heed for the destruction this causes, mirroring the soldiers shooting up Main Street, Smallville (which is clearly not evacuated). Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 02:37
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*shots of superman saving astronauts and people from a burning building, literally a whole scene of rescuing oil drillers from certain death* But why doesn't he ~save~ people?
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Mar 27, 2019 02:40
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ruddiger posted:*shots of superman saving astronauts and people from a burning building, literally a whole scene of saving oil drillers* Cease to Hope posted:I don't think this is necessarily an inappropriate characterization of Superman compared to the context of every other Superman story (although it does sort of play into the superhero-as-supercop conception), but it is inconsistent with who Clark was before he put on the suit. C'mon, read the posts you're replying to.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:42
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Cease to Hope posted:The clip ruddiger linked has both Superman and Faora-Ul flying across the screen faster than the eye can see. Faora is the only Kryptonian in the movie able to react and do precise things at those speeds, and it's deliberate because she's the best "fighter" of the group and can fully embrace her speed as a weapon. Clark and Zod specifically can just ram poo poo; if you look at the iHop sequence when Clark tries to use his speed and ram her, she precisely grabs him out of the air at that speed, which also works with how she fights the soldiers in actually grabbing and throwing them while moving and speeds. Zod is shown mainly to be just pure rage manifested at the end; his heat vision explodes like crazy and he creates rubble and destruction everywhere he goes. Unless the mysterious Snyder cut proves me wrong; this was probably going to be used as a distinction between Justice League members, with Wonder Woman, as the born and trained precise warrior, being similar to Faora and Flash being somewhat chaotic, but who knows. Darko fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 02:43
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E: poo poo now I'm the one half remembering movies. The astronauts and the burning building are from BvS, right? My bad.
ruddiger fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 02:44
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By the end of the movie, Superman has beaten Zod. He was never trying to kill them specifically, he was trying to stop them from killing everyone. So when he has to make the choice to end Zod's life it makes perfect sense that this is difficult; he hopes he won't have to keep fighting but Zod gives him no choice. To say Superman was "trying to beat them to death" is just dishonest.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:46
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Cease to Hope posted:When confronted with an indiscriminately destructive force in an area full of civilians, he confronts that force head-on rather than mitigating the disaster. It’s not a disaster. It’s an attack on a small town by a band of Space Nazis. Punching Nazis doesn’t make you a soldier. This consistent trouble with basic definitions of words is like some newspeak poo poo.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:48
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Darko posted:Faora is the only Kryptonian in the movie able to react and do precise things at those speeds, and it's deliberate because she's the best "fighter" of the group and can fully embrace her speed as a weapon. Clark and Zod specifically can just ram poo poo; if you look at the iHop sequence when Clark tries to use his speed and ram her, she precisely grabs him out of the air at that speed, which also works with how she fights the soldiers in actually grabbing and throwing them while moving and speeds. Okay, but isn't this supporting my argument that Snyder conceives of Superman in terms of fighting? If Superman is just strong, this could be a scene of Superman constantly trying to hurl Faora and Large Guy out of the fight and get people to safety while they keep flying back in to renew the attack, but instead when Superman gets the upper hand, he's using it to pound a Kryptonian in the face. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 02:48
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Cease to Hope posted:When confronted with an indiscriminately destructive force in an area full of civilians, he confronts that force head-on rather than mitigating the disaster. ...how else is he supposed to mitigate the disaster? Do you expect him to just let the Kryptonians kill people while he does mitigation stuff? Cease to Hope posted:Okay, but isn't this supporting my argument that Snyder conceives of Superman in terms of fighting? If Superman is just strong, this could be a scene of Superman constantly trying to hurl Faora and Large Guy out of the fight and get people to safety while they keep flying back in to renew the attack, but instead when Superman gets the upper hand, he's using it to pound a Kryptonian in the face. This boils down to, "Superman is not powerful enough to take charge of the situation." And yes, Superman is not in charge in this situation. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 02:52
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Schwarzwald posted:...how else is he supposed to mitigate the disaster? Do you expect him to just let the Kryptonians kill people while he does mitigation stuff? Snyder created this scene where Superman's only option is to fight, and even then, that isn't apparent at all. (When he knocks Faora away, his concern is renewing the attack in the middle of another street, rather than continuing to move her somewhere else or focus on getting the people he just saw safely clear of the fight.) A more interesting director could make this scene about saving people from the disaster that is the Kryptonians fighting the military, rather than Superman Punch Fight Times.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:54
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Cease to Hope posted:Okay, but isn't this supporting my argument that Snyder conceives of Superman in terms of fighting? If Superman is just strong, this could be a scene of Superman constantly trying to hurl Faora and Large Guy out of the fight and get people to safety while they keep flying back in to renew the attack, but instead when Superman gets the upper hand, he's using it to pound a Kryptonian in the face. I think that's part of his character development in the film. Early on, everything he does is like a weapon, as his powers make him a natural weapon (which he spends his whole life trying to contain). Even his first flight has him knocking the top of a mountain off. By the end, he's finally doing things "slowly" and getting precise control where he can finally be a savior to a degree - except now this raging missile is flying around blowing everything up and every effort he tries to use to deflect him doesn't work. He only engages to directly save people; Faora and Nam-ek attack him. His Year One puts him in some of his most unwinnable situations (it *is* his Superman Begins, too). There was obvious growth planned after that. Darko fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 02:55
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Cease to Hope posted:Snyder created this scene where Superman's only option is to fight, and even then, that isn't apparent at all. (When he knocks Faora away, his concern is renewing the attack in the middle of another street, rather than continuing to move her somewhere else or focus on getting the people he just saw safely clear of the fight.) A more interesting director could make this scene about saving people from the disaster that is the Kryptonians fighting the military, rather than Superman Punch Fight Times. "This story could have instead been a different story" isn't a criticism of the film or it's direction.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:58
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Cease to Hope posted:Okay, but isn't this supporting my argument that Snyder conceives of Superman in terms of fighting? If Superman is just strong, this could be a scene of Superman constantly trying to hurl Faora and Large Guy out of the fight and get people to safety while they keep flying back in to renew the attack, but instead when Superman gets the upper hand, he's using it to pound a Kryptonian in the face. Up until that point in his life, Superman was just some dude wandering around trying not to be in the way. He's strong, but not a trained soldier. Unlike Faora, Zod, and the rest of the Kryptonians trying to terraform Earth. Superman was outmanned and at a gigantic tactical disadvantage.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:58
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Darko posted:I think that's part of his character development in the film. Early on, everything he does is like a weapon, as his powers make him a natural weapon (which he spends his whole life trying to contain). Even his first flight has him knocking the top of a mountain off. By the end, he's finally doing things "slowly" and getting precise control where he can finally be a savior to a degree - except now this raging missile is flying around blowing everything up and every effort he tries to use to deflect him doesn't work. That sounds like a more interesting version of this movie than the actual film. It's never in question that he's in control of his powers after very early childhood, but rather that he's in control of his emotions. If this entire fight scene was a tragedy, if he had to confront the consequences of choosing to fight and thereby destroying his hometown in front of these people who knew him and recognize him, then sure. But this film never questions his choice to pummel the absolute hell out of these Kryptonians at every opportunity, only his decision to kill Zod at the end. Detective No. 27 posted:Up until that point in his life, Superman was just some dude wandering around trying not to be in the way. He's strong, but not a trained soldier. Unlike Faora, Zod, and the rest of the Kryptonians trying to terraform Earth. Superman was outmanned and at a gigantic tactical disadvantage. Trying to isn't succeeding. It's why I focused on him using his moment of respite to renew the attack; it says in a very clear way what he's trying to do here. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Mar 27, 2019 |
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Mar 27, 2019 02:59
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Cease to Hope posted:A more interesting director could make this scene about saving people from the disaster that is the Kryptonians fighting the military, rather than Superman Punch Fight Times. The Kryptonians fighting the military is a disaster only in the sense that the Kryptonians would kill them all and then go kill the civilians Clark was trying to save anyway. It's worth remembering that the Kryptonians' plan from the start is to kill Literally Everyone, so the greatest number of lives saved can be achieved by stopping the Kryptonians as effectively as possible. This is why Clark flies halfway around the world specifically to go and stop the World Engine, because the giant machine gouting enormous jets of terraforming material into the atmosphere in India is just as big a problem as the ship directing it in Metropolis. it is a climate change metaphor
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Mar 27, 2019 02:59
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