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Cease to Hope posted:Yes, they are literal people with animal heads in fascist propaganda. Italicizing things doesn't make them less true. Post the fascist propaganda where the people have literal animal heads. Not ones where they are symbolic (like an octopus putting it's arms around the globe) but just straightforward animal people, minotaurs and poo poo. As to the second point, you're backpeddling. The skulls were a symbol of martial prowess but whoops! Now that we threw that in the bin they're actually pro-eugenics, even tho the hunchback guy that Leonidas talked to could have easily died in battle with them. Leonidas makes up a bullshit reason that doesn't make any sense if you think about it for more than 10 seconds. Leonidas rejects the hunchback and denies him purpose and keeps him on the fringes because he's not *glorious* enough and Leonidas ends up dying for it.
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Mar 28, 2019 00:52
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You can even see some Spartans hanging way back, doing kill confirm stabs or whatever that aren't even part of the phalanx. Leonidas could have assigned him that duty but didn't because...?
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Mar 28, 2019 00:59
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WampaLord posted:Also I really wish everyone would stop assuming I'm posting in bad faith, I'm not trolling, just trying to provide a little perspective from outside the pro-Snyder bubble. Hell I used to post in CineD a lot a couple years ago, but I just haven't seen many movies lately. I even just recently posted a few times in the Spider-verse thread, so I'm not just a "tourist" I get that, and for whatever it's worth you don't seem like a troll so I'm sorry, but your first post in this thread--a thread specifically to discuss Snyder films--is WampaLord posted:Perhaps y'all have created a pro-Snyder bubble and if it feels uncomfortable when you encounter opinions outside that bubble it says more about you than those outside the bubble. The world is not crazy because some people don't agree with your preference in directors. You think no one who posts in here has ever encountered an anti-Snyder opinion before? When it's in fact the very reason this thread exists? Come on now. Surely you can see how someone would interpret that post in a way that would seem to suggest you were just out for lols
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Mar 28, 2019 00:59
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DeimosRising posted:What are you trying to say? The movie disgeticallu takes place within the propaganda, of course it portrays the elements of the propaganda. The guy who betrays them is a disfigured castaway because of the betrayal, not the other way around. The Persian subject countries are orcs, goat men, etc because they are fighting the Spartans. Also the Spartans are not fascist, which is not synonymous with militarism 300 is fascist. It's not a satire of fascist propaganda in any way. It presents a propaganda story entirely uncritically. The only think keeping it from being actual fascist propaganda is that propaganda requires intent, and I don't think Snyder is a fascist or that he set out to make propaganda. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Post the fascist propaganda where the people have literal animal heads. Not ones where they are symbolic (like an octopus putting it's arms around the globe) but just straightforward animal people, minotaurs and poo poo. Goatfucker is a pretty common epithet against people from the Middle East (or anywhere that keeps goats, really). The animalistic features are always symbolic of fascists' deeming their designated hate targets as subhuman invaders or infiltrators. Stepping over a field of skulls of those who weren't strong enough is still really common fascist imagery. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Mar 28, 2019 |
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Mar 28, 2019 01:01
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teagone posted:You can even see some Spartans hanging way back, doing kill confirm stabs or whatever that aren't even part of the phalanx. Leonidas could have assigned him that duty but didn't because...? Exactly. Or he could be at the back row on the left side, where there's literally nobody he has to defend and if the phalanx were flanked he would be the first to die and actually contribute something. But you know, *perfect Spartans* can't have some disfigured guy getting the idea that they can participate with their betters. gently caress off dude! whoops we all died because we excluded the weakest people from dignity.
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Mar 28, 2019 01:02
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The story of 300 IS fascist - and at the end we find out it’s a tall tale to rally the “real” army that Solid Snake is telling the troops about how mighty and great the Spartans were under Leonidas.
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Mar 28, 2019 01:03
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I'm asking you a question, I guess the answer is no? You don't think that immediately showing the Spartans as blood-crazed child-killers and making the Persians literal beasts substantially changes the movie from the comic? He thinks that that's what racist fascist Zack Snyder truly believes, and by extension, as a fan of Zack Snyder, you also tacitly believe that/support the troops/are generally bad people, or at least unwittingly endorse such ideas. He also doesn't know the difference between defending and enforcing, and believes revolutionaries are soldiers, so his grasp on the definition of things leaves a bit to be desired.
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Mar 28, 2019 01:04
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Cease to Hope posted:300 is fascist. It's not a satire of fascist propaganda in any way. It presents a propaganda story entirely uncritically. The only think keeping it from being actual fascist propaganda is that propaganda requires intent, and I don't think Snyder is a fascist or that he set out to make propaganda. What does "intent" look like in this context? What would the magic words be? Asking genuinely here. Is it really as simple as Snyder saying "I was 100% wanting to make a satire" in some interview somewhere? Furthermore, does that mean that a movie cannot be a satire unless the director (writer?) says it is? Where and how is the line drawn and decided?
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Mar 28, 2019 01:05
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Snyder literally said "If I were Paul Verhoven people would think I was a genius" back in 2007 when 300 premiered. It's the old "Snyder is too stupid to make movies that say anything, actually" defense.
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Mar 28, 2019 01:08
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Cease to Hope posted:300 is fascist. It's not a satire of fascist propaganda in any way. It presents a propaganda story entirely uncritically. So, according to you, A Modest Proposal isn’t satire.
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Mar 28, 2019 01:12
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Cease to Hope also didn't realize that people reacted to Starship Troopers the same exact way he's reacting to 300, and when presented with the fact that both movies share the same thematic and satirical bones, he just refuses to admit that he's wrong and repeats the same unsubstantiated claims.
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Mar 28, 2019 01:13
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A Snyder that can think? I just find that offensive!
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Mar 28, 2019 01:15
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ruddiger posted:He thinks that that's what racist fascist Zack Snyder truly believes, and by extension, as a fan of Zack Snyder, you also tacitly believe that/support the troops/are generally bad people, or at least unwittingly endorse such ideas. Cease to Hope posted:The only think keeping it from being actual fascist propaganda is that propaganda requires intent, and I don't think Snyder is a fascist or that he set out to make propaganda. plus pretend i quoted the half-dozen times i've said i like 300 and think it's a good movie, just one with themes i really don't like to think about. argue with the people in front of you, not the ones you imagine. Waffles Inc. posted:What does "intent" look like in this context? Propaganda requires intent, that's all. I don't think Snyder set out to make a fascist movie, or wants people to come away from 300 thinking "gently caress yeah, fascism rules!" Satire doesn't require intent in the abstract, although it's so difficult that I imagine it would be almost impossible to do on accident. In any case, if he intended for this to be a satire, he failed. SuperMechagodzilla posted:So, according to you, A Modest Proposal isn’t satire. It would not have been a satire if there was an actual baby-eating movement that it was trying to criticize.
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Mar 28, 2019 01:15
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There was an actual baby eating movement it was criticizing. It was called 'British Imperialism'.
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Mar 28, 2019 01:18
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ruddiger posted:Cease to Hope also didn't realize that people reacted to Starship Troopers the same exact way he's reacting to 300, and when presented with the fact that both movies share the same thematic and satirical bones, he just refuses to admit that he's wrong and repeats the same unsubstantiated claims. Starship Troopers is a mixed success at best! A lot of actual fascists have latched on to portions of it, ignoring the whole. Satire is hard, even when you do everything you possibly can to make it obvious that you're creating satire. What I didn't know is that ST was poorly received, even by people who identified it as satire.
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Mar 28, 2019 01:20
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Cease to Hope posted:Yes, the bulletproof supermen in the spaceships are quite realistic. It is very realistic that the liberal state is helpless against the fascists but the manifestation of the people’s will can stop them.
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Mar 28, 2019 01:21
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Cease to Hope posted:It would not have been a satire if there was an actual baby-eating movement that it was trying to criticize. Is what you're implying that one can't satirize a thing that exists or?... Like Ruddiger has it exactly right here ruddiger posted:Cease to Hope also didn't realize that people reacted to Starship Troopers the same exact way he's reacting to 300, and when presented with the fact that both movies share the same thematic and satirical bones, he just refuses to admit that he's wrong and repeats the same unsubstantiated claims. What would Snyder have needed to have done, in your opinion, to not have "failed" for 300 to be satire like you say? Like, you realize that just because the people that are being satirized are "fooled" by the satire doesn't mean that the media wasn't satirical. Actual racists like Blazing Saddles, for instance. There were probably British Imperialists who realtalk thought 'A Modest Proposal' wasn't such a bad idea. Hell, "we thought this Onion article was real" is an entire genre of Tweet
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Mar 28, 2019 01:21
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Cease to Hope posted:Starship Troopers is a mixed success at best! It absolutely is not. It rules and 100% works. edit: I don't wanna dogpile on this guy, so I'm done. Cease To Hope I don't think this thread is a good fit for you, your core premises are just not gonna get accepted here.
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Mar 28, 2019 01:21
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Cease to Hope posted:Propaganda requires intent, that's all. I don't think Snyder set out to make a fascist movie, or wants people to come away from 300 thinking "gently caress yeah, fascism rules!" Would you say his failure is on par with Verhoeven's circa Starship Troopers? This is the exact argument his critics were making at the time, that ST lacks any kind of commentary on the fascism its "supposedly" lampooning. The human forces win, Doogie's seen as a good guy at the end, hand in hand with his troop friends, and we're taking the fight to the "bad guys" at the end. The critics at the time saw this as straight-faced and matter-of-factly, not satirical, exactly the way you're approaching 300. e: drat, you answered before I could ask! Cease to Hope posted:Starship Troopers is a mixed success at best! A lot of actual fascists have latched on to portions of it, ignoring the whole. Satire is hard, even when you do everything you possibly can to make it obvious that you're creating satire. It should be noted that Verhoeven's "failure" isn't his. It's the failure of his critics. The same is true with Snyder. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Mar 28, 2019 |
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Mar 28, 2019 01:21
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Cease to Hope posted:plus pretend i quoted the half-dozen times i've said i like 300 and think it's a good movie, just one with themes i really don't like to think about. argue with the people in front of you, not the ones you imagine. That's entirely beside the point. It doesn't matter if you do or don't like this or any other movie. It matters that when you make a claim, that you can defends it. For example: Cease to Hope posted:Propaganda requires intent, that's all. I don't think Snyder set out to make a fascist movie, or wants people to come away from 300 thinking "gently caress yeah, fascism rules!" Here you're dodging a question. You've said propaganda requires intent, and you don't think Snyder provided that intent. How would you be able to tell? How might the film be different if there was that intent? What about the film displays that Snyder did not have that intent? Back up your claims.
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Mar 28, 2019 01:25
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Cinema Discusso › The Snyderdome: Starship Troopers is a mixed success at best!
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Mar 28, 2019 01:26
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Ferrinus posted:It is very realistic that the liberal state is helpless against the fascists but the manifestation of the people's will can stop them. Superheroes as manifestations of the people's true ethics who beat down personifications are the supercop. I think MOS Superman is the Superman of the "notmysuperman" people in all ways except the sense that using that power to kill is wrong. I don't really have a problem with Superman killing a Nazi who's about to shoot people, although I do think it's kind of in bad taste given all the Christ stuff. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:It absolutely is not. It rules. A mixed success as an anti-fascist ideological tract. I do think it totally rules. ruddiger posted:Would you say his failure is on par with Verhoeven's circa Starship Troopers? No. I've only ever seen the argument that 300 is a satire from people who are deeply invested in defending Snyder's body of work from psychoanalytical criticism, even though I'm not psychoanalyzing him. Waffles Inc. posted:Is what you're implying that one can't satirize a thing that exists or? I don't think a story becomes satire because the creator wishes it was satire. "A Modest Proposal" was subversive because of its ridiculousness, which mirrored the normalized class-based cruelty and exploitation of British life. There's no subversion of the basic read of 300 that Sparta, with its eugenics and militarism, is the highest ideal of martial glory against the monstrous foreigner hordes who pose an existential threat. ruddiger posted:It should be noted that Verhoeven's "failure" isn't his. It's the failure of his critics. The same is true with Snyder. No. I don't believe that wishing a movie is a thing makes it that thing. Otherwise every critic who pans a movie is "failing" to see the director's vision of a movie that didn't suck! Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Mar 28, 2019 |
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Mar 28, 2019 01:31
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Cease to Hope posted:No. I've only ever seen the argument that 300 is a satire from people who are deeply invested in defending Snyder's body of work from psychoanalytical criticism, even though I'm not psychoanalyzing him. But other people *DO* see the satirical intent in 300, so wouldn't 300 be a mixed success like Starship Troopers?
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Mar 28, 2019 01:34
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ruddiger posted:But other people *DO* see the satirical intent in 300, so wouldn't 300 be a mixed success like Starship Troopers? I'm sure there are people out there who read Showgirls as a devastating takedown of Hoxhaism but I'm not about to describe it as one.
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Mar 28, 2019 01:37
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Waffles Inc. posted:What would Snyder have needed to have done, in your opinion, to not have "failed" for 300 to be satire like you say? Prefacing this by saying I 100% think you can read 300 as a satire (and that Synder's basically said as much), here's the best I can gather from seeing people's complaints. I think people would feel the film is "fixed" if like, at the end when we pull out to reveal that the entire thing has been a tale by the One-Eye Guy, if there was some obvious indication that he made poo poo up, i.e. all the Spartans he's talking to are chubby and weak looking etc. Basically just some real life vs. tall tale that's shown diegetically (ignoring that of course, in real life, no one has goat heads so maybe that should tip some people off). Mind you, I don't agree that satire NEEDS a knowing wink to the audience or whatever, just that I bet a lot more people would take it as indisputable if there was. I can already imagine people on Facebook sharing the Cracked article "10 Films With A Twist That Makes You Reconsider Everything!" or whatever. Edit: I'm also sympathetic to the idea that hateful imagery, even if presented with intent to mock, can still be harmful to those who fascists et al. are targeting. I think that's a big part of the 300 controversy. Some probably feel like we don't need any more movies showing ripped white guys slaughtering foreign hordes, even if it's a critique of that. PopZeus fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Mar 28, 2019 |
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Mar 28, 2019 01:42
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Cease to Hope posted:Superheroes as manifestations of the people's true ethics who beat down personifications are the supercop. I think MOS Superman is the Superman of the "notmysuperman" people in all ways except the sense that using that power to kill is wrong. I don't really have a problem with Superman killing a Nazi who's about to shoot people, although I do think it's kind of in bad taste given all the Christ stuff. Having ethics doesn't make you a cop. Using violence action doesn't make you a cop. Antifa are not cops. ...do you actually know what cops are, or did you just witness the thread discuss how a cop was a bad thing for a superhero to be and then decide to retrofit "this superhero is a cop" into "I think this superhero is bad?"
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Mar 28, 2019 01:43
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Cease to Hope posted:I'm sure there are people out there who read Showgirls as a devastating takedown of Hoxhaism but I'm not about to describe it as one. Verhoeven's work pre-robocop was filled with psychosexual commentary tho, why are you denying any kind of reading from Verhoeven's Showgirls? besides the obvious (you remember the meme of showgirls instead of the actual movie)
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Mar 28, 2019 01:52
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Schwarzwald posted:Having ethics doesn't make you a cop. Antifa are vigilantes. Where are you getting "I think this superhero is bad"? Criticism is more complicated than MOVIE GOOD, MOVIE BAD. I don't have a problem with Superman stories where Superman punches the personification of an evil ideology; I just think it's interesting that Clark turns into that halfway through MOS without comment. ruddiger posted:Verhoeven's work pre-robocop was filled with psychosexual commentary tho, why are you denying any kind of reading from Verhoeven's Showgirls? besides the obvious (you remember the meme of showgirls instead of the actual movie) Showgirls is full of psychosexual commentary, sure. (You don't need to go back as far as his pre-Robocop stuff; he made Basic Instinct, after all.) It is not about Albanian post-Maoist thought, I am comfortable saying that. PopZeus posted:Mind you, I don't agree that satire NEEDS a knowing wink to the audience or whatever, just that I bet a lot more people would take it as indisputable if there was. Satire requires some subversion of the straightforward read. Most of the knowing winks are cliches, but that's because effective satire that also blazes new ground is really hard. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Mar 28, 2019 |
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Mar 28, 2019 01:53
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Cease to Hope posted:Superheroes as manifestations of the people's true ethics who beat down personifications are the supercop. I think MOS Superman is the Superman of the "notmysuperman" people in all ways except the sense that using that power to kill is wrong. I don't really have a problem with Superman killing a Nazi who's about to shoot people, although I do think it's kind of in bad taste given all the Christ stuff. Again, this is an ideological problem you’re having. You just don’t think fighting nazis is morally distinct from fighting muggers. Perhaps you’re right!* But don’t pretend that the issue is technical rather than political. * you’re not
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Mar 28, 2019 02:04
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Cease to Hope posted:Where are you getting "I think this superhero is bad"? You're torturing the dictionary to define Superman's his actions as that of a cop. I can only speculate as to why. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Mar 28, 2019 |
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Mar 28, 2019 02:08
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Cease to Hope posted:Satire requires some subversion of the straightforward read. Most of the knowing winks are cliches, but that's because effective satire that also blazes new ground is really hard. I mean like...you're familiar with actual reality and real life Sparta and Persia right? There weren't goat men and meters-tall piles of baby skulls
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Mar 28, 2019 02:09
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Xerxes was a golden God though
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Mar 28, 2019 02:14
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Cease to Hope posted:Antifa are vigilantes. This is about as gross as your "revolutionaries are soldiers" statement. The Punisher is a vigilante. Batman is a vigilante. Lynch mobs in the south were vigilantes. Antifa is a youth movement fighting for equal rights. You are literally espousing conservative rhetoric by giving militancy to an equal rights group. What makes antifa vigilantes in your eyes? How is marching for equal rights the same as going outside of the law to punish those who they perceive needs punishment? ruddiger fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Mar 28, 2019 |
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Mar 28, 2019 02:15
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With Snyder, at LEAST he didn't do a super similar *this movie is saying something else* movie BEFORE 300 (he did after, with Sucker Punch, if you want to go the most obvious route) like Veerhoven did. But drat, i remember being 16 or whatever for Starship Troopers and people and reviewers were like "this movie is cheesy, why is the acting so bad, he didn't understand the book, not MY Starship Troopers since there are no mechs" and then the cartoon comes out and they're like THIS is MY Starship Troopers (cause mechs and other aliens like the book) - and I'm just wondering if anyone saw Robocop before seeing it? The whole Snyder movement is just basically dejavu, only with current Internet that is even louder with hyperbole.
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Mar 28, 2019 02:17
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2006 was released at the height of the Iraq War and I feel like people should remember that and also maybe realize that America isn’t Sparta in the film.
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Mar 28, 2019 02:18
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Ferrinus posted:You just don’t think fighting nazis is morally distinct from fighting muggers. I don't think fighting Nazis is morally distinct from fighting mass murderers. Cops don't fight fascists, whether or not they commit crimes, because cops are part of power structures that sympathize with fascists, power structures which may not even consider fascists to be committing crimes. The fantasy of the supercop is "What if police adhered to a supermoral ethical code?" In the case of a Nazi-fighting supercop, "What if a policeman adhered to a supermoral ethical code that saw planning for genocide as a crime?" You could call it supervigilante, too, if you like. Waffles Inc. posted:I mean like...you're familiar with actual reality and real life Sparta and Persia right? There weren't goat men and meters-tall piles of baby skulls Actual fascists in actual reality regularly argued that their targets of hate were subhuman and animalistic, and frequently depicted them that way. Fascists used symbolic language too. Alexander Hamilton posted:2006 was released at the height of the Iraq War and I feel like people should remember that and also maybe realize that America isn’t Sparta in the film. It's worth looking at Frank Miller's justification for his comic about a thinly-veiled Batman expy killing Osama bin Laden, a story he was shopping around at DC as early as 2006. I don't think Snyder set out to make fascist propaganda but Miller definitely, definitely wanted to. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Mar 28, 2019 |
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Mar 28, 2019 02:19
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Alexander Hamilton posted:2006 was released at the height of the Iraq War and I feel like people should remember that and also maybe realize that America isn’t Sparta in the film. Speaking of which, it wasn't until the Iraq War that people started realizing Starship Troopers was satire because everyone was acting exactly like Earth was in that movie around and after 9-11.
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Mar 28, 2019 02:20
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WampaLord posted:The world is not crazy because some people don't agree with your preference in directors. You had a prolonged meltdown about how I was an elitist because I said Kevin Smith made juvenile films so glass houses
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Mar 28, 2019 02:29
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In regards to 300 on my first viewing I spent nearly the entire run-time hating the gently caress out of the movie and considering it gross & fascist, then when it was ending and Diver Dan was narrating the story to the troops my thought process went "This is such bullshit! This dude wasn't even present for lots of the events he's narrating. There's no way he could know about them. What a plot hole! What am I supposed to believe, that he's just making...it...all...up?... ... ...Oh, poo poo, I'm a loving idiot!" Then I watched the movie again with this in mind and had a great time. So I can understand people seeing the movie as fascist, because I did on first impression, but I am surprised that they never thought twice about it like I did. When I watched Starship Troopers the satire didn't click for me until Doogie Howser showed up dressed as a Nazi and then it clicked. Maybe I'm just slow.
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Mar 28, 2019 02:29
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garycoleisgod posted:In regards to 300 on my first viewing I spent nearly the entire run-time hating the gently caress out of the movie and considering it gross & fascist, then when it was ending and Diver Dan was narrating the story to the troops my thought process went "This is such bullshit! This dude wasn't even present for lots of the events he's narrating. There's no way he could know about them. What a plot hole! What am I supposed to believe, that he's just making...it...all...up?... Nah, you got it. Not everyone did/does. Evidently.
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Mar 28, 2019 02:31
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