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Martman posted:Sorry, I got kind of frustrated because after a while of new terms popping up, it genuinely becomes hard to focus on what to criticize. Like after a while it feels like "oh you thought de-centering was the issue... but you forgot about absolute symbols!" and then after thinking about it and addressing it it's like "oh but actually it was about the placement of those absolute symbols!" It feels like goalpost shifting, but I understand how that can happen without you being dishonest or doing it intentionally. Yeah, for example, when you said this Martman posted:You're saying that being a nazi is more "absolutely" evil than literally throwing a bunch of babies off a cliff. Which, to be clear, no one in the world actually ever has supported. Y'all are both being very wishy washy in terms of "well eugenics is a thing, and this is a representation of that," but that's the whole point. Throwing babies off a cliff is not how anyone has ever proposed or executed eugenics. and I replied Mel Mudkiper posted:You are giving the same significance to an image that fronts the narrative and an image the concludes the narrative In between those two posts I said "He's right, why do I consider the uniform and the babies different when they are arguably the same?" Then I thought through my process of how I came to have my different feelings about the two images, and then realized it was because they were at polar opposite ends of the narrative. I realized that placing in the narrative was why I interpreted those symbols differently. If it came off as inconsistent, it was because I was literally clarifying an idea for myself that had not occurred to me until you said it.
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Mar 28, 2019 20:55
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Thank you for clarifying. Honestly I feel like this thread is kind of proving that the Snyderdome is working. I'm at least thankful I don't have to skip over tons of "omg this Snyder chat is so insufferable, why can't you nerds just accept that the bad man made bad movies??" posts, and the overall level of discussion seems a lot more legit.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:01
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Martman posted:Is this not the same as the argument in A Modest Proposal? The standard for suspension of disbelief is very different for a fictional story about a fantastic version of history and an ostensibly real political political tract. Triumphing over cartoonish adversity is a typical origin for a fantasy hero; what makes it Darwinist is that Spartans think that adversity is good and necessary. It's not too outrageous to be believed on its face because it is congruous with (the popular imagination of) Sparta in history.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:01
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Mel Mudkiper posted:You cannot de-center a narrative at the start of the narrative Again, the reading you're pulling from clicked for the reader when the storyteller was revealed, who couldn’t have been present for Leonidas death and how this recontextualised the entire movie for them.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:03
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Martman posted:Thank you for clarifying. Yeah, I am not opposed to getting into scraps if it makes the ideas clearer and better. Hell, its why I will even reply to SMG when he occasionally says something meaningful.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:04
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brawleh posted:Again, the reading you're pulling from clicked for the reader when the storyteller was revealed, who couldn’t have been present for Leonidas death and how this recontextualised the entire movie for them. I don't see the relation between my post and your response
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Mar 28, 2019 21:05
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Cease to Hope posted:It's not too outrageous to be believed on its face because it is congruous with (the popular imagination of) Sparta in history. Because I think the latter is the real issue here, and I don't think the historical accuracy of the practice has anything to do with that. If I present an image of Nazis running a concentration camp while talking about how necessary it is, it is still obviously evil even though Nazis actually did that.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:09
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Martman posted:I wanna be specific here. Are you saying that it's not too outrageous to believe Sparta did this? Or are you saying it's not too outrageous to believe Sparta did this and it was morally correct? I mean, we are currently living in an era where he throw refugee toddlers in cages and some of them die of dehydration so its not like "culling the weak and useless" is a radical idea for most of our society, its just one we don't want to consciously confront.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:11
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean, we are currently living in an era where he throw refugee toddlers in cages and some of them die of dehydration so its not like "culling the weak and useless" is a radical idea for most of our society, its just one we don't want to consciously confront. Anyone paying attention to America for essentially all of its existence should not be/is not surprised at throwing toddlers in cages. Appalled, yes, but surprised? That would require some incredible naivete. Is what you're implying by talking about the toddler cages here in 2019 that a film, say, about the US military that had those wouldn't necessarily be constructed as a satire since it actually happened? Because my take is that a completely bold-faced pro-fascism film about the US would absolutely not feature the toddler prisons
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Mar 28, 2019 21:15
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean, we are currently living in an era where he throw toddlers in cages and some of them die of dehydration so its not like "culling the weak and useless" is a radical idea for most of our society, its just one we don't want to consciously confront. And this is a huge tangent but this kind of ties into my issues with Avengers: Infinity War. We get a lot of arguments in favor of fascism, dictatorship, mass cullings etc., but we don't really get presented with any of the problems with those claims. Sure it's the antagonist pushing for them, but the movie really doesn't give us much imagery that actually presents Thanos as wrong. Even the culling itself is weirdly painless and like, humane?
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Mar 28, 2019 21:16
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Martman posted:I wanna be specific here. Are you saying that it's not too outrageous to believe Sparta did this? Or are you saying it's not too outrageous to believe Sparta did this and it was morally correct? The movie is definitely arguing for the latter. There's no point where it derails straightforward reads of "this process makes heroic warrior men who are worth 100 times their decadent counterparts". The movie argues, in a straightforward way, that brutalizing children makes them strong. Are you going to ask me a dozen more times if I actually think this?
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Mar 28, 2019 21:16
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Waffles Inc. posted:Is what you're implying by talking about the toddler cages here in 2019 that a film, say, about the US military that had those wouldn't necessarily be constructed as a satire since it actually happened? You would have to define what you mean by "constructed"
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Mar 28, 2019 21:17
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Mel Mudkiper posted:In between those two posts I said "He's right, why do I consider the uniform and the babies different when they are arguably the same?" Then I thought through my process of how I came to have my different feelings about the two images, and then realized it was because they were at polar opposite ends of the narrative. I realized that placing in the narrative was why I interpreted those symbols differently. Have you considered thinking like that before writing things? At this point you're not even post-structuralist anymore (to the extent that you ever were). Like, now you're talking about the vital importance of narrative structure.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:17
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Cease to Hope posted:The movie is definitely arguing for the latter. There's no point where it derails straightforward reads of "this process makes heroic warrior men who are worth 100 times their decadent counterparts". Except for in cases where the viewer is appalled and rightfully condemns it and thinks, "these idiots are loving monsters". Again, chuds and fascists saying "gently caress yeah" to the baby skulls does not mean it is unsuccessful satire
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Mar 28, 2019 21:18
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Cease to Hope posted:The movie is definitely arguing for the latter. There's no point where it derails straightforward reads of "this process makes heroic warrior men who are worth 100 times their decadent counterparts". Like, this makes it sound like actual history supports a pro-fascist reading in your mind.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:18
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Mel Mudkiper posted:You would have to define what you mean by "constructed" made filmed edited written etc etc like, however you want to mean it?
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Mar 28, 2019 21:18
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Cease to Hope posted:The movie argues, in a straightforward way, that brutalizing children makes them strong. Are you going to ask me a dozen more times if I actually think this? Killing babies does not actually, in reality, make them strong, only a monster would believe it to be true
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Mar 28, 2019 21:20
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Waffles Inc. posted:Killing babies does not actually, in reality, make them strong, only a monster would believe it to be true
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Mar 28, 2019 21:21
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Waffles Inc. posted:Because my take is that a completely bold-faced pro-fascism film about the US would absolutely not feature the toddler prisons I am not sure that I agree. I think a pro-fascism film would want you to believe it was a good idea. Like, look at depictions of slavery from pro-southern fiction. The whole agenda is to soften the harsher consequences of their actions. Waffles Inc. posted:made My issue is that each of those processes suggest different actors offering different readings. A writer and director of a film are both providing separate readings of what they are creating. I am reluctant to consider any work, even by a singular artist, to be "constructed" to do something since there is no primary authority for a work.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:21
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Martman posted:Showing that fascist practices can have benefits in no way implies that those practices are morally correct. The "benefits" are the heroes of the film, who go down in history as the greatest warriors who ever lived and the saviors of democracy and freedom against the monstrous black-skinned hordes. (The popular historical narratives of Sparta and Thermopylae are heavily shaped by contemporaneous Spartan propaganda to boot!) Waffles Inc. posted:Killing babies does not actually, in reality, make them strong, only a monster would believe it to be true 300 is a fascist movie. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Mar 28, 2019 |
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Mar 28, 2019 21:22
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Mel Mudkiper posted:My issue is that each of those processes suggest different actors offering different readings. A writer and director of a film are both providing separate readings of what they are creating. I am reluctant to consider any work, even by a singular artist, to be "constructed" to do something since there is no primary authority for a work. guhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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Mar 28, 2019 21:22
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Martman posted:I kinda disagree here. The problem with eugenics isn't that it doesn't work, it's that it's evil. Gonna stop you there, cause, it doesn't work.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:23
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josh04 posted:Gonna stop you there, cause, it doesn't work.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:23
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I don't see the relation between my post and your response Well, it's that even within this contrivance of how narrative must be constructed in trying to build towards this Doogie Howser moment, the reading you’re drawing this from is important for part you omitted. Which was that it’s not the pile of baby skulls that made the work click for them, they were disgusted by this. It was the reveal that the storyteller was embellishing the story and outright making up parts of it whole cloth in rallying his audience to war.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:24
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Waffles Inc. posted:guhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I mean, if it simplifies it I reject the communication theory of sender-medium-receiver I take the more post-structuralist "death of the author" sort of perspective that there is only medium and reader.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:24
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brawleh posted:Well, it's that even within this contrivance of how narrative must be constructed in trying to build towards this Doogie Howser moment, the reading you’re drawing this from is important for part you omitted. It might help if someone laid out a comprehensive argument for 300 as a satirical work somewhere. I can kind of see the argument people are making but it's fragmented over dozens of posts over multiple pages.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:27
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Waffles Inc. posted:Killing babies does not actually, in reality, make them strong, only a monster would believe it to be true The movie doesn't even believe this. Leonidas doesn't beat the wolf with strength, but with trickery and cunning. The hunchback is strong as gently caress, but is not only rejected as a baby, he's rejected as a grown man, who's clearly capable of fighting. Leonidas' excuse is weak and exposed immediately when he whole-heartedly endorses sending the undisciplined ruddiger fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Mar 28, 2019 |
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Mar 28, 2019 21:27
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ruddiger posted:The movie doesn't even believe this. Leonidas doesn't beat the wolf with strength, but with cunning. The hunchback is strong as gently caress, but is not only rejected as a baby, he's rejected as a grown man, who's clearly capable of fighting. Leonidas' excuse is weak and exposed immediately when he whole-heartedly endorses sending the Photians in to fight alongside his Spartans. The movie presents Leonidas as correct to reject him because his physical ugliness signifies a moral failing. He cannot stand with the Spartans, which turns out to mean he's willing to sell out the Spartans. This is contrasted with the (notably not-ugly) Phoenicians, who simply fail the Spartans because they aren't true warriors, rather than betraying them for their own benefit.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:32
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Martman posted:All I'm saying is, that's not what makes it monstrous. If it did work, it would still be wrong. I am not claiming that it does work, I'm saying it's important to be able to face the aspects of fascism that do "work" in their intended ways and still be aware of what's wrong with them. Yeah, it's just important to note that eugenics "working" but being too distasteful for liberal palates is itself a Nazi myth, along the lines of "at least they made the trains work on time" (they didn't, fascism was incredibly inefficient). Human metrics for intelligence are notoriously racist and self-affirming throughout modern history, and the practical examples of actual animal eugenics we have (e.g. dogs, chickens, pigs) produce nightmarishly inbred, permanently sickly animals - to the point where you end up having to strategically re-introduce diversity to keep the whole thing afloat.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:39
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Cease to Hope posted:The movie presents Leonidas as correct to reject him because his physical ugliness signifies a moral failing. He cannot stand with the Spartans, which turns out to mean he's willing to sell out the Spartans. This is contrasted with the (notably not-ugly) Phoenicians, who simply fail the Spartans because they aren't true warriors, rather than betraying them for their own benefit. Huh, nah, I'd say the reverse. Leo's failure to accept him is shown to be his downfall. It's literally the rejection and acceptance by others that causes the betrayal.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:40
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Martman posted:I kinda disagree here. The problem with eugenics isn't that it doesn't work, it's that it's evil. No; going back to 300 the hunchback dude survived his abandonment. It 'didn't work', because it turns out he is very good at surviving. And here we should also be specific because the Spartans don't actually practice eugenics. They don't know what genes even are. What we see in the opening scene is the transition from the baby being examined by the cruel and judgmental father to the child getting into a brutal sparring session with an older man, getting punched in the face because he's not good enough at fighting yet, etc. The father is judging the character of the baby, in a very silly sort of way. Like the baby is already fighting, 'proving himself', even right after birth. Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean, if it simplifies it That's not a post-structuralist essay, and the essay does not say that there is only the medium and the reader. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Mar 28, 2019 |
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Mar 28, 2019 21:43
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:No; going back to 300 the hunchback dude survived his abandonment. It 'didn't work', because it turns out he is very good at surviving. I realize it's a big tangent, and there is a common issue with the popular misconception that nazi stuff all worked great and was just too evil when in reality they failed in numerous ways. I was just trying to emphasize that it's important not to go the other way and suggest that evil stuff can't be practically useful. Like, even if there were implementations of mandated selective breeding that worked, they would still be evil and we shouldn't do them. Martman fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Mar 28, 2019 |
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Mar 28, 2019 21:50
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:And here we should also be specific because the Spartans don't actually practice eugenics. They don't know what genes even are. The word "eugenics" is older than the word "gene". The idea that traits run in families goes back to pre-history. Spartans did spread propaganda stories about how they brutalized children to breed superior warriors contemporaneously. They didn't call it eugenics, because that's a term coined in the 19th century, but eugenicists definitely used their conception of Spartan history (based on Spartan propaganda) to justify their views.
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Mar 28, 2019 21:52
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Cease to Hope posted:It might help if someone laid out a comprehensive argument for 300 as a satirical work somewhere What's your requirement for something to be satire?
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Mar 28, 2019 21:59
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You think 300 is satire? Heh. Prove it. Call Leonidas the A* word. *(Achaean)
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Mar 28, 2019 22:05
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Cease to Hope posted:The movie presents Leonidas as correct to reject him This is manifestly false. He would have went into battle with the Spartans and died from his lack of combat prowess, thus no betrayal. Leonidas would just have to recognize him as worthy of dying in battle, and he won't. Leonidas thinks he should have been thrown off a cliff when he was an infant, because Leonidas is a piece of poo poo who gives good speeches, like a certain recent president. YEAH I FUCKIN' SAID IT
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Mar 28, 2019 22:08
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:This is manifestly false. He would have went into battle with the Spartans and died from his lack of combat prowess, thus no betrayal. Leonidas should have either just immediately executed him or strapped him to another dude’s back to provide 360 murder coverage.
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Mar 28, 2019 22:09
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porfiria posted:Leonidas should have either just immediately executed him or strapped him to another dude’s back to provide 360 murder coverage. Or just put him on the left rear flank, where his shield didn't need to protect anyone as there was nobody to his left to protect Or let him be a kill confirm guy Or literally anything he could have done rather than find the one exact situation where his disability couldn't be overcome.
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Mar 28, 2019 22:10
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porfiria posted:Leonidas should have either just immediately executed him or strapped him to another dude’s back to provide 360 murder coverage. "summon Blasteridus"
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Mar 28, 2019 22:11
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Or just put him on the left rear flank, where his shield didn't need to protect anyone as there was nobody to his left to protect He isn't a true warrior, so he isn't fit to be with them. The realistic fact that armies are not and never have been made entirely of fighting men at arms is something that is obvious if you know anything about armies or history, but it's such a common thing for movies to omit that it's hard to ascribe intent to that. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Leonidas is a piece of poo poo who gives good speeches, like a certain recent president. YEAH I FUCKIN' SAID IT lol we agree though
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Mar 28, 2019 22:13
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