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Pakled posted:Red Squad, I guess, has the extenuating circumstance that they were being ordered to commit treason by an admiral. Not sure if the Federation's big on "I was just following orders" though. They also probably didn't entirely know what was going on - I imagine Leyton played it all pretty close to the vest. And since proper officers were suckered into Leyton's plot, I imagine Red Squad's defense could argue that it'd be unfair to expect mere cadets to see through him. Agnosticnixie posted:Did B&B hate Moore that much at that point or something? Probably wasn't their call, just some penny-pincher who wouldn't approve an extra expense that would be applied to every episode. The same thing happened with Enterprise - T'Pol was originally T'Pau from "Amok Time".
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Mar 31, 2019 17:13
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Well the Federation didn't care very much about Worf's treasonous terrorism on Risa. Didn't even get demoted.
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Mar 31, 2019 17:15
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The Risans just figured that's Worf's idea of fun. That and it basically consisted of making it rain for once.
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Mar 31, 2019 17:25
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marktheando posted:Well the Federation didn't care very much about Worf's treasonous terrorism on Risa. Didn't even get demoted. Worf's been discommendated for less
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Mar 31, 2019 17:29
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Agnosticnixie posted:Having basically just rewatched Valiant in a spree of season 6 DS9 episodes, someone should have trolled the reboot writers' room at some point when they decided to have Enterprise commanded by a crew whose oldest officer is a 25 yo fratboy and just played the entire episode. You know, I was just thinking about that line where they point out that most training ships are old leftovers but Red Squad is so
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Mar 31, 2019 17:37
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The whole “they’d have to pay royalties” has never been hard fact, just speculation. Anyway DS9 had Sisko commit a war crime against the Maquis. It’s kibda safe to say the show, as good as it is, had a consistent problem with people getting realistic punishments for things.
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Mar 31, 2019 17:39
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Nodosaur posted:The whole “they’d have to pay royalties” has never been hard fact, just speculation. A country never holding anyone accountable for a war crime committed by its own military is pretty realistic, actually
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Mar 31, 2019 17:42
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EimiYoshikawa posted:She's a good actress, and I really liked her character in that episode. One of the examples of how the Federation welcomes everyone that wishes to be part of it, as individuals, like Nog or Worf, even if their species isn't, and a good tempering for some of the other too-cruel episodes, in that they aren't going to tell her to gently caress off when she requests asylum/to leave with them rather than being stuck on her dumb planet/probably being distrusted by her people in the future for being so willing to cooperate with aliens. Carolyn Seymour rules. I find your cover story unconvincing and you suck. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E32Q4acbRew At least you'll die with here with us... well poo poo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiUk87bPa2Q Let's get the ship's only medical staff pass out drunk, that's a good idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlwE10AzTZI
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Mar 31, 2019 17:44
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Pakled posted:A country never holding anyone accountable for a war crime committed by its own military is pretty realistic, actually It is but it’s kinda debatable how in character it is for the Federation, if only because of the parade of corrupt admirals in TNG getting held accountable for stuff.
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Mar 31, 2019 17:46
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Fornax Disaster posted:Carolyn Seymour rules. When I was a kid I used to think she was Pat Benetar.
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Mar 31, 2019 18:28
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Pakled posted:A country never holding anyone accountable for a war crime committed by its own military is pretty realistic, actually
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Mar 31, 2019 19:35
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Cat Hatter posted:You know, I was just thinking about that line where they point out that most training ships are old leftovers but Red Squad is so The episode mentions that Republic is the normal training ship which based on the name and the implied age (it was already old af in the 2320s since it hasn't even left the solar system since then) would probably make it one of the original connies which I can't imagine being that much older than Mirandas as a class. The only way Valiant would have been better is as a Down Periscope remake where they get their asses kicked by a more experience crew in some ancient movie-era trash heap. Also there's something kinda funny about the fact that the Defiants as depicted in Valiant are canonically slower than even the ENT-era NXes unless you say gently caress the regs and disable a bunch of engineering safeties. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Mar 31, 2019 |
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Mar 31, 2019 19:38
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Angry Salami posted:They also probably didn't entirely know what was going on - I imagine Leyton played it all pretty close to the vest. And since proper officers were suckered into Leyton's plot, I imagine Red Squad's defense could argue that it'd be unfair to expect mere cadets to see through him. He literally told Sisko that Leyton ordered Red Squad to sabotage Earth's Power Grid, which seems odd to just go along with. Then again so is having a literal secret roster of cadets (according to Nog, Red Squad's roster list is secret). Admittedly there is a difference between following orders and masterminding a coverup, but it just seems really odd that Locrano of all people committed "an unforgiveable act" considering all the other coverups, ethical breaches, and war crimes that occur from actual officers instead of just cadets who probably don't have the best sense of judgement yet. I mean Tom Paris gets 18 months in New Zealand for actual Treason (being in the Maquis). Agnosticnixie posted:The episode mentions that Republic is the normal training ship which based on the name and the implied age (it was already old af in the 2320s since it hasn't even left the solar system since then) would probably make it one of the original connies which I can't imagine being that much older than Mirandas as a class. Peak Performance only the Hathaway is commanded by the entire Enterprise-D crew and they clown on Red Squad constantly. Picard shows them up with the Picard Maneuver which none of their dumb asses bothered reading about. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Mar 31, 2019 |
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Mar 31, 2019 19:40
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Agnosticnixie posted:... Angry_Ed posted:... "Ensign, run on two nacelles only and begin broadcasting 'Louie Louie' over the comms at full volume."
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Mar 31, 2019 20:01
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Nodosaur posted:It is but it’s kinda debatable how in character it is for the Federation, if only because of the parade of corrupt admirals in TNG getting held accountable for stuff. As much humanity likes to pat itself on the back for “progress” only the alpha sociopaths make it to the top of the management heap. Agnosticnixie posted:The episode mentions that Republic is the normal training ship which based on the name and the implied age (it was already old af in the 2320s since it hasn't even left the solar system since then) would probably make it one of the original connies which I can't imagine being that much older than Mirandas as a class. In a real life, the cadets of Annapolis will do periods of training on ships in service. Real experience, training on an asset in real situations. Why use a rust bucket anyway when you can train on the holodeck? You can have the interactive experience of the drudgery of charting gaseous anomalies and be a helmsman at the Battle of Axanar. quote:He literally told Sisko that Leyton ordered Red Squad to sabotage Earth's Power Grid, which seems odd to just go along with. Then again so is having a literal secret roster of cadets (according to Nog, Red Squad's roster list is secret). In the 24th century the Kobiashi Maru is ethnics and military law. *That whole episode was Leyton’s test in Ethics for the class of ‘72 and they FAILED. Automatic Slim fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Mar 31, 2019 |
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Mar 31, 2019 20:14
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Automatic Slim posted:Why use a rust bucket anyway when you can train on the holodeck? You can have the interactive experience of the drudgery of charting gaseous anomalies and be a helmsman at the Battle of Axanar. The only reason is to actually make the cadets get used to being out in deep space away from their familiar surroundings, friends and family, and the safe blanket that is Unfortunately, nobody passed on the email about suspending this program during war-time, and Red Squad wound up in a Lord of the Flies situation where The Beast was actually a Dominion super warship (and Piggie survived to write more articles for Federation Buzzfeed).
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Mar 31, 2019 20:52
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In the end, the Red Squad cadets were (at the time) impressionable kids who get talked up and manipulated by the Starfleet Command flag officer. Lorcano, still a kid, got an actual living being killed. That's still quite a bit worse.
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Mar 31, 2019 21:50
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Agnosticnixie posted:Did B&B hate Moore that much at that point or something? "Sorry Ron. Maybe you'd understand someday--if you ever ran a franchise of your own. HA!"  Cat Hatter posted:"Ensign, run on two nacelles only and begin broadcasting 'Louie Louie' over the comms at full volume." "Top or bottom two?" "No--the left two." "But then we'll go in circles!" "Exactly!"
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Mar 31, 2019 22:22
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Automatic Slim posted:As much humanity likes to pat itself on the back for “progress” only the alpha sociopaths make it to the top of the management heap. It would actually be cool to see some kind of summary of 20th century Earth history as put in a Klingon textbook.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:33
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Agnosticnixie posted:The episode mentions that Republic is the normal training ship which based on the name and the implied age (it was already old af in the 2320s since it hasn't even left the solar system since then) would probably make it one of the original connies which I can't imagine being that much older than Mirandas as a class. It's the same ship Kirk served on as an ensign, so if its not a connie its one of the half-dozen or so Disco ship types.
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Apr 1, 2019 00:45
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Nodosaur posted:In the end, the Red Squad cadets were (at the time) impressionable kids who get talked up and manipulated by the Starfleet Command flag officer. That's 33% as many people that Tom Paris killed in his training accident but apparently that plus treason is fine so  EDIT: I probably am nitpicking this too hard but the excuse of the "unforgiveable act" on its face makes no sense. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 01:26
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It's mentioned that the Valiant being crewed by cadets was before the war began. I imagine that Starfleet would've kicked them all off post-haste if the kids hadn't run off with the ship.
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Apr 1, 2019 01:40
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Nessus posted:It would actually be cool to see some kind of summary of 20th century Earth history as put in a Klingon textbook. I assume they'd classify the 20th century's love of genocide and ethnic cleansing as cowardice and inherently dishonorable to slaughter people for no good reason. Somehow, I don't seen the Klingons as really being a "death camps" group.
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Apr 1, 2019 02:04
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Sash! posted:I assume they'd classify the 20th century's love of genocide and ethnic cleansing as cowardice and inherently dishonorable to slaughter people for no good reason. Not for other Klingons, at least. It was full death or letting your enemy live in shame which means they'll probably kill themselves or you in the future. Other species I can definitely see work camps that aren't too worried about survival rates.
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Apr 1, 2019 02:17
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Klingons just get really loving into some obscure 5th century state and nobody in the federation understands why
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Apr 1, 2019 02:25
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The Klingons would probably be most interested in China.
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Apr 1, 2019 02:59
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Brawnfire posted:Not for other Klingons, at least. It was full death or letting your enemy live in shame which means they'll probably kill themselves or you in the future. Welcome to scenic Rura Penthe! Did you know that when these dilithium mines first opened in 2162, few could imagine they would one day become the premier source of dilithium harvested by hand in the Klingon Empire? Rura Penthe: We Work Honourless Curs to Death for You!
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Apr 1, 2019 03:01
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Sash! posted:I assume they'd classify the 20th century's love of genocide and ethnic cleansing as cowardice and inherently dishonorable to slaughter people for no good reason. Errand of Mercy? Rura Penthe? I guess the latter isn't strictly comparable but it's a small leap from there, even if you discount the TOS TV Klingons. "The Aliens' Graveyard." Which brings up an observation I had watching ST6 recently. The dinner scene is awful. There, I said it. The Klingons are very adept at using the Federation's ideals against them, but it's 1. baldly cynical on their part, given everything we see of Klingon society even in the film in isolation, and 2. none of the dialogue flows at all. Some individual lines are memorable, which papers it over somewhat, but the characters aren't really responding to each other at all for the most part. I get that they're supposed to be at odds and not communicating well, but it's like it was edited down from a much longer scene into something that barely makes sense. But back to the first point, the Klingons accuse the Federation of being a Homo sapiens-only club - "present company excepted" due to Spock, but they're also dealing with, at least, a Deltan Federation president, and in ST4 the Federation Council and Starfleet Command are shown to have myriad aliens. But just look at the Empire, there are literally no other races at all in their military or political power structure, and no one calls them out on this. They've enslaved or exterminated all other races within their borders. They don't have a leg to stand on but the scene is still written not only as if they have a point, but the Starfleet members present are cowed and accept the premise, and go to bed in massive guilt, checking their human privilege. It's not as good of a movie as a lot of fans like to think.
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Apr 1, 2019 03:20
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I noticed about the dinner scene on my last rewatch too. It still works a little bit because it’s supposed to be awkward and full of miscommunication, but there’s a lot of non sequitur.
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Apr 1, 2019 03:31
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There was a time where I would have written a lot of words about how ridiculously incorrect that opinion is but it turns out people can just be wrong on the internet.
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Apr 1, 2019 03:37
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You're just racist against brutal alien empires built on conquest and enslavement.
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Apr 1, 2019 03:43
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Zurui posted:There was a time where I would have written a lot of words about how ridiculously incorrect that opinion is but it turns out people can just be wrong on the internet. what is this place coming to??
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Apr 1, 2019 03:45
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:Which brings up an observation I had watching ST6 recently. The dinner scene is awful. There, I said it. The Klingons are very adept at using the Federation's ideals against them, but it's 1. baldly cynical on their part, given everything we see of Klingon society even in the film in isolation, and 2. none of the dialogue flows at all. Some individual lines are memorable, which papers it over somewhat, but the characters aren't really responding to each other at all for the most part. I get that they're supposed to be at odds and not communicating well, but it's like it was edited down from a much longer scene into something that barely makes sense. This is precisely what happened. The dinner scene was about twice the length before being hacked to bits in post-production. quote:a Deltan Federation president Efrosian.  (Named for Mel Efros, who was the unit production manager on IV and V.)
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Apr 1, 2019 03:54
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Timby posted:This is precisely what happened. The dinner scene was about twice the length before being hacked to bits in post-production. I would watch the gently caress out of an extended cut. I mean, it'll never happen. But I would.
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Apr 1, 2019 04:00
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Timby posted:This is precisely what happened. The dinner scene was about twice the length before being hacked to bits in post-production. Oh really? How did I get the idea he was Deltan then? Weird.
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Apr 1, 2019 04:09
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:Oh really? How did I get the idea he was Deltan then? Weird. Ilia was Deltan.
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Apr 1, 2019 04:13
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Timby posted:Ilia was Deltan. That I know, but how did I get here from there.
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Apr 1, 2019 04:45
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:That I know, but how did I get here from there. I don’t know but I don’t see any Federation President taking a vow of celibacy. It would be such a waste.
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Apr 1, 2019 05:46
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Sash! posted:I assume they'd classify the 20th century's love of genocide and ethnic cleansing as cowardice and inherently dishonorable to slaughter people for no good reason. Nah. They would have loved the Axis in WWII. You've got Germany, who decides to take over and enslave the continent because they believe they're inherently superior and their neighbors are only worthy of extermination or subjugation, and then you have Japan, whose soldiers model themselves after the medieval warrior caste, and decide to invade a much bigger country. Then, when that's not going well, their answer is to launch an attack against an even stronger country.
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Apr 1, 2019 05:52
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remember that the klingon "honour" stuff is bullshit that only worf is naive enough to take at face value
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Apr 1, 2019 05:54
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