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hopeandjoy posted:TR’s pretty much always Jessie, James, and Meowth to me instead of Musashi, Kojirou, and Nyarth. But that’s because the theme of the localization of their names is more memorable to my American brain I think. )
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Apr 4, 2019 22:31
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The thing is, they're not dub names - they're the names from the games, which is where a lot of people interested in watching will be coming from wanting to see what they're familiar with. Acting like there's one specific purpose for a sub that conviently precludes the kind of translation you're arguing against is pretty dodgy too - what if someone wants to make a set of subs entirely based off the dub, treating it as a sequel to the dub, because the Japanese version is all that exists at this hypothetical time and a sub is what they have the resources to do? Obviously that's a particularly exaggerated example but there's plenty of room in between too, it's not all "dub = localised, sub = not".
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Apr 4, 2019 22:35
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Nodosaur posted:why do you keep saying I'm arguing for things I'm not? Nodosaur posted:Proper nouns, if they're translated in subs, should only be done for the sake of conveying meaning. For Gosukomusha, something like "Gigasamupod" or something would work better for that than its english name. Nodosaur posted:I even said I'd be okay with something on the level of what Kamen Rider Gaim's subs did with Gridon when I suggested localizing Golisopod's name so the reference to samurai is kept. You're shoving words in my mouth to make me seem more extreme than I actually am. That's the logic people used for "Nakama". Again: Pokemon species names are not proper nouns, they're trademarked but there are multiple Golisopods. Your argument only vaguely applies to Legendaries.
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Apr 4, 2019 22:37
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AlphaKretin posted:The thing is, they're not dub names - they're the names from the games, which is where a lot of people interested in watching will be coming from wanting to see what they're familiar with. Acting like there's one specific purpose for a sub that conviently precludes the kind of translation you're arguing against is pretty dodgy too - what if someone wants to make a set of subs entirely based off the dub, treating it as a sequel to the dub, because the Japanese version is all that exists at this hypothetical time and a sub is what they have the resources to do? Obviously that's a particularly exaggerated example but there's plenty of room in between too, it's not all "dub = localised, sub = not". Then that's a localization more like a dub than what people tend to watch fansubs for. I'm not saying there's not an audience for that sort of thing, but there's an audience for the more accurate kind too, which is evidence by the fact that people voted for this over the other option. Can we at least agree that people who want the other variety aren't "broken" or "wrong" and that no one should be shamed for their preferences? I'll admit I've been a bit of a hardliner here and I'm going to try and meet in the middle more. Kurieg posted:You do say those things. Here. Leaving his name untranslated is important to you entirely because of the references his name contains(and are completely lost on an English speaking audience) are more valuable than clarity. That's... not really the same thing at all. Pokemon aren't animals. They're fantasy creatures that are marketed heavily and are meant to stand out as characters of their own even if they're members of the species. That's why their names get capitalized even if they're normal animals in reality. "Nakama" is just a normal rear end word. The people who say there's a meaning inherent to it that the english word doesn't have are either incorrect, misled, or lying. "Gokushomusha" has wordplay going on it that separates it from the normal rear end word for the real world animal it's based on, that's an actual fact. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Apr 4, 2019 |
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Apr 4, 2019 22:39
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they're wrong and they should be shamed for their preferences
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Apr 4, 2019 22:40
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Nodosaur posted:Then that's a localization more like a dub than what people tend to watch fansubs for. If this is you meeting in the middle then I'm fine stopping this argument because it's clear that it's not going go to anywhere useful.
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Apr 4, 2019 22:55
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Whatever suits you then.
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Apr 4, 2019 22:58
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This argument hasn’t stopped since the 80’s, it’s not stopping now.
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Apr 4, 2019 23:00
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BattleCattle posted:This argument hasn’t stopped since the 80’s, it’s not stopping now. post your favourite 80's pokemon
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Apr 4, 2019 23:04
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I honestly apologize for even bringing it up. I mean, I knew it was a hot button topic but I didn't know it would go to these kinds of extremes. For me it seems logical to localize things that have solid localizations now that Pokemon has become much more of a worldwide synced up thing. Maybe I'm wrong and just thinking more idealistically, but hey.
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Apr 4, 2019 23:05
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Big Bad Beetleborg posted:post your favourite '80s pokemon Turtonator 2: Judgment Day
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Apr 4, 2019 23:06
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absol looks like he spent too long listening to the cure alone in his bedroom
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Apr 4, 2019 23:06
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hopeandjoy posted:This is my thought too. The names Musashi and Kojiro for Jessie and James strike me as an overly cruel joke, since the real-life Kojiro is best known for being killed by Musashi. (Fun Fact: Aerial Ace's Japanese name (literally Swallow Return) is the name of the real Kojiro's signature technique. Despite this, Bulbapedia informs me that James has never had a Pokemon with Aerial Ace.)
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Apr 4, 2019 23:09
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to be slightly less flip about all this, all translations that aren't total dog poo poo are a form of localization. what's important about bringing works from one language over to another isn't what's actually literally being said, it's the intent of what's being said. it's literally the futon no futtonda thing. it's not important that they literally said "the futon flew away", it's that they made a very lame "why did the chicken cross the road" level joke. if arino says today he's playing bc genjin, you're supposed to know he's playing bonk despite the fact that he's literally saying bc genjin and bonk isn't a pun like bc genjin is so it loses the literal "meaning". when the awful nerd character in the first phoenix wright made 2chan references, they changed it to 4chan references because the intent wasn't "he is referencing jokes from the popular japanese website two chan", it was "this loser talks in nothing but terrible internet references". if someone in pokemon mentions a dogars that isn't on screen at the moment, the intent behind that isn't for the viewer to go "wait which one is dogars again", it's for them to immediately go "oh theyre talking about a koffing". if you're leaving stuff like this at the first part of the example, you're doing a literal translation. if you want people to leave stuff like this at the first part of the example, you're advocating for a literal translation. literal translations aren't exclusively going full tv-nihon and leaving japanese words in japanese completely at random for no reason. to be more flip about all this, if you're doing a literal translation: you're doing a lovely translation. if you're advocating for a literal translation: you're wrong and you should be shamed for your preferences
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Apr 4, 2019 23:10
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The most baffling Japanese to English localizations of pokemon names definitely have to be those psychic tapir-like Pokémon from gen 5. They just do nothing to capture the subtlety of their names in their original language
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Apr 4, 2019 23:13
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I always think Munna is part Fairy because its name sounds like moon and it evolves with a Moon Stone.
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Apr 4, 2019 23:18
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Alxprit posted:I honestly apologize for even bringing it up. I mean, I knew it was a hot button topic but I didn't know it would go to these kinds of extremes. For me it seems logical to localize things that have solid localizations now that Pokemon has become much more of a worldwide synced up thing. Maybe I'm wrong and just thinking more idealistically, but hey. Nope, I agree with you, friend. Nodosaur posted:That's... not really the same thing at all. Pokemon aren't animals. They're fantasy creatures that are marketed heavily and are meant to stand out as characters of their own even if they're members of the species. That's why their names get capitalized even if they're normal animals in reality. Ok, I understand that I am not the target audience for this because I don't watch subbed anime (because it annoys me). Still, it's worth emphasizing that "Gokushomusha" having wordplay going on is cool and good but it relies on you knowing Japanese in order to get it. If knowledge of the source language is required to get a joke or reference, then it should be changed. If people watching can speak Japanese, then they don't need the subs, do they? Also in the Pokemon universe, Pokemon are just normal-rear end animals. There are occasionally references to animals that are not Pokemon, but for the most part, Pokemon are it for the local fauna. Bulbasaur is a species name, same as dog. Yeah sure it's copyrighted and a proper noun, and everything, but I don't see anybody arguing that Nippon shouldn't be changed to Japan in subs. Speaking for myself, I don't know the Pokemon's Japanese names and it's just jarring to be reading sentences in English and then suddenly here's a random Japanese word that I don't know. Oh that must be the Japanese word for Koffing. It wrecks my immersion.
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Apr 4, 2019 23:19
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Big Bad Beetleborg posted:post your favourite 80's pokemon 
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Apr 4, 2019 23:21
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LSD at the gangbang posted:I always think Munna is part Fairy because its name sounds like moon and it evolves with a Moon Stone. sounds like a moon type op
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Apr 4, 2019 23:22
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Silver2195 posted:The names Musashi and Kojiro for Jessie and James strike me as an overly cruel joke, since the real-life Kojiro is best known for being killed by Musashi. The original name for Aerial Ace explains why Kartana and the Honedge line learn it, although it also raises further questions, like why it's a Flying-type move instead of Steel-type, and why Pokemon like Mothim and Porygon2 that don't have any sharp edges on their bodies can learn it. The in-game description is vague about why the move entails except that it's very fast, and the portrayals of it in the anime tend to be either just a fast jumping tackle or the shonen anime "no, it is I who is behind you and you are already dead!" trope. Also, in the games Dugtrio can learn it despite being permanently stuck in the ground and having no visible sharp edges. I guess the idea is that it pops up just enough to momentarily reveal its unseen mole claws, and pops back down while slashing downward with its claws? It gets even sillier with Z-Moves; now everything that can use Aerial Ace can also use Supersonic Skystrike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HmMPQX7uJ8 Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Apr 4, 2019 |
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Apr 4, 2019 23:23
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Big Bad Beetleborg posted:absol looks like he spent too long listening to the cure alone in his bedroom  Ow the Edge indeed
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Apr 4, 2019 23:28
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LSD at the gangbang posted:I always think Munna is part Fairy because its name sounds like moon and it evolves with a Moon Stone. Cresselia, Lunala and Lunatone tho
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Apr 4, 2019 23:29
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hosed up to assume everyone from the moon is a fairy type
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Apr 4, 2019 23:30
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absolutely anything posted:to be more flip about all this, if you're doing a literal translation: you're doing a lovely translation. if you're advocating for a literal translation: you're wrong and you should be shamed for your preferences And I repeatedly said subs shouldn't do that. I even came up with examples from other subs that do exactly what you're saying subs should do. But at some point you run into an instance where the dub decided to just go in a completely different direction from the name the Japanese version used, which can at times interfere with expressing the intended meaning. Like, take Scyther in the baseball episode of Sun and Moon: The fact that he's called "Strike" in Japan makes it easier to express the joke behind why he's the umpire, whereas in the dub. Whereas with Scyther... the umpire just happens to be a Scyther. There's never gonna be a perfect solution, because translation notes are unwieldy and next to impossible to use without getting into "keikaku means plan" territory, so ultimately, it comes down to the watcher's individual priorities, I guess. Some jokes don't just translate at all. Unfortunately, fansubbers don't have infinite free time, so ultimately I think people should be allowed to choose how they invest their time. quote:Ok, I understand that I am not the target audience for this because I don't watch subbed anime (because it annoys me). Still, it's worth emphasizing that "Gokushomusha" having wordplay going on is cool and good but it relies on you knowing Japanese in order to get it. If knowledge of the source language is required to get a joke or reference, then it should be changed. If people watching can speak Japanese, then they don't need the subs, do they? Then I would suggest not watching the sub and waiting for the dub. Or trying to suggest that subs that use English terms be developed by someone. But as my example with "Strike" and "Scyther" shows, there's gonna be stuff that's difficult and awkward no matter what you do. For every joke that involves an English load word like that example, you're gonna run into stuff like how "Fushigadane" uses the fact that his name means "what is it?" that Bulbasaur isn't equipped with. And it goes beyond humor too; calling the move "Aerial Ace" instead of "Tsubame Gaeshi" routinely made people wonder why Ash's Greninja was using it when he's not a bird and his way of doing it didn't involve going into the air most of the time. No solution is perfect and I guess my personal preference is for the path of least resistance. I'm sorry I acted so holier than thou about it. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Apr 4, 2019 |
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Apr 4, 2019 23:31
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Woo isn't this riveting. I do like them leaving the names in since it's fun to learn various names, but it's just fansubs doing it for the heck of it, or they don't like the English names. I would say watch the dub to alleviate this, but no one should watch the dub.
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Apr 4, 2019 23:37
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Clearly the proper solution is to just stop translating pokemon at all because doing literally anything at all to the property sullies it's original intent, and those Japanese jokes are too important to lose.
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Apr 4, 2019 23:40
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Missed it in the crazy translation chat. But ever since Red/Blue my brother and I have always gotten warm color(him) and cool color(me). Even though we live in different states, it feels wrong getting a warm color game. Though idk which is which for let's go, but lmao if I was gonna get Pikachu instead of the superior Eevee.
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Apr 4, 2019 23:41
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Do you think Team Rocket have to pay to get their white uniforms laundered, or can they charge it back to the organisation?
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Apr 4, 2019 23:42
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Crosspeice posted:Woo isn't this riveting. To simulate watching the dub, mute the sound and replace it with bland garbage unless its from the games or the Team Rocket theme.
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Apr 4, 2019 23:43
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nevermind
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Apr 4, 2019 23:46
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Crosspeice posted:I do like them leaving the names in since it's fun to learn various names, but it's just fansubs doing it for the heck of it, or they don't like the English names. I would say watch the dub to alleviate this, but no one should watch the dub. I don't think the dub is that awful. The worst aspect is probably the music since they tend to gut the original music in favor of bland repetitive (and somewhat stereotypical) stuff. Which unlike languages, you don't need to be a part of a specific culture in order to appreciate it. Basically the dub tends to go with the cheapest options available in order to keep costs low. They also don't have an entire voice acting community to reach out to unlike the Japanese original. Personally I think the dub is fine given what they have to work with. Zuzie fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Apr 4, 2019 |
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Apr 4, 2019 23:48
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The dub quality has certainly improved over the years, and we don't have 4kids censoring any minor reference or visual of Japanese culture (jelly donuts). Anyway, I participated in the tourney last month. How do I claim the Tapu Pokemon prize thing?
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Apr 4, 2019 23:57
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Scholtz posted:The most baffling Japanese to English localizations of pokemon names definitely have to be those psychic tapir-like Pokémon from gen 5. They just do nothing to capture the subtlety of their names in their original language I've always been partial to Musharna's German name: Somnivora
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Apr 5, 2019 00:10
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notthegoatseguy posted:Anyway, I participated in the tourney last month. How do I claim the Tapu Pokemon prize thing? Login on the Pokemon GL site and get the code from there.
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Apr 5, 2019 00:15
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Amphinobi for Greninja in French is one of the best ones.
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Apr 5, 2019 00:46
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The people arguing on either side of the “should fansubs use the English or Japanese Pokémon names” are being extremely tedious. Please, please, talk about something else
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Apr 5, 2019 00:50
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should fansubs use the english or japanese character names
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Apr 5, 2019 00:56
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thetoughestbean posted:The people arguing on either side of the “should fansubs use the English or Japanese Pokémon names” are being extremely tedious. Please, please, talk about something else Is Psyduck a duck or a platypus?
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Apr 5, 2019 00:58
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Which QOL improvement feature from USUM will be taken out in Sword/Shield, and why is it Rotomdex and why are they actually leaving it in?
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Apr 5, 2019 01:03
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thetoughestbean posted:The people arguing on either side of the “should fansubs use the English or Japanese Pokémon names” are being extremely tedious. Please, please, talk about something else Which is the best starter, and why is it Oshawott?
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Apr 5, 2019 01:04
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