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underground seems like the way to go so i recommend learning how to dig. i've been done a lot of labor in my life and there are. a lot of advanced, endurance digging techniques many people aren't aware of. most would bring a shovel rather than a pickaxe, LOL.
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Apr 29, 2019 08:01
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vyelkin posted:Plus, outside of the pipe-dream scenario where we all lead zero-emissions lives because of individual choice, the vast majority of people aren't presently willing to consciously choose to make their own lives more expensive and less convenient. Something like half the population are happy to make choices of conspicuous consumption that make extremely minor cuts to their emissions, but only when it doesn't affect their lives at all. "Oh I'll take my drink without a straw because I wouldn't drink through the straw anyway. But no way am I giving up my two intercontinental vacations a year!" And the other half reacts to movements to reduce emissions by increasing their own emissions out of spite. "Oh are you not taking a straw? Well then give me two straws! Triggered yet lib?" Both those groups of people will need to change their behaviours if we want to survive, but trying to coax them into choosing greener choices is completely ineffective, and the coercive power of the state to make certain behaviours more expensive or outright banned and other behaviours less expensive or outright free will be absolutely necessary to get people actually behaving the way they need to behave if we want to survive. If you're concerned about climate change and want to build a mass movement about it, it will be far more effective to dedicate your energy to political change and electing politicians who are willing to use the power of the state to fight climate change on a societal level, than to spend that energy fighting plastic straws and plastic bags and single-occupancy vehicle use. I get that things aren't able to change instantly and someone who can't afford to live in a city because it's way too expensive have no choice but to commute from suburbs, but to just pretend that your excessive resource consumption is OK because it's not your INTENTION, it's all those corporations making you do it, seems like it's just going to shield people from actually thinking about how their lifestyle is a problem and organizing to change society so they don't have to keep living that lifestyle. Socialism that only focuses on workers ability to get a good wage, but does nothing to actually attack the greater problem of how we live, is going to end up just the same environmental hazard as our current system.
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Apr 29, 2019 08:25
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massively subsidize public transportation and make it free at point of use boom i just solved car culture and you didn't have to scold americans on how they are morally evil for being forced to drive a car
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Apr 29, 2019 09:20
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comedyblissoption posted:massively subsidize public transportation and make it free at point of use
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Apr 29, 2019 09:36
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cars, even subsidized, are expensive as gently caress for the vast majority of americans and still causes massive traffic congestion and carnage get rid of the personal car subsidies and increasingly reduce the lanes they get to use as public transport takes over it'd be dumb as hell that rich people get to have their own personal bubble car spaces still, but this is still a better solution than ineffectually scolding people into not driving cars and encouraging them to take intentionally crippled public transportation
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Apr 29, 2019 09:41
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Shima Honnou posted:Nothing we do as individuals will do anything beyond making us feel good while the world goes to hell and pretty much each day that passes reduces how much we can reduce the effects if we could act in concert as a species. Pretty much, it's every man for himself.
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Apr 29, 2019 09:52
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well yeah im not disagreeing, i just think lots of americans would still opt to drive because its 5 minutes faster and freedoms/racism, not even if its a matter of $2 bus ticket (or $0 bus ticket) vs $6 to drive. gas prices should be like $6-8/gallon like it is in europe and most of the world. get rid of lots of street parking, diet roads down to 1-lane each way, put in bus-rapid transit and light-rail and bike paths everywhere to replace them and connect all cities with high-speed rail but it's really a lovely mess of 100 years of bad planning. as cool as it would be to have rail to every cul-de-sac, it's stupidly wasteful. we really gotta tear down white flight 1-story tracthouses and 1-story stripmalls and build 4-5-story wood frame structures over concrete podiums everywhere. it's cheap, quick, safe and good buildout density. the tangent issue is there is just no housing in lots of places, and nothing more than 1-story for like 99% of america. its both a matter of providing lots of affordable housing that can be supported with transit options, and having public transit take out car-culture and thus making driving much slower and costly. america will collapse before it does that tho
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Apr 29, 2019 09:58
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Xaris posted:well yeah im not disagreeing, i just think lots of americans would still opt to drive because its 5 minutes faster and freedoms/racism, not even if its a matter of $2 bus ticket (or $0 bus ticket) vs $6 to drive. gas prices should be like $6-8/gallon like it is in europe and most of the world. get rid of lots of street parking, diet roads down to 1-lane each way, put in bus-rapid transit and light-rail and bike paths everywhere to replace them and connect all cities with high-speed rail i get extremely pissed when people talk about taking a 10 minute uber ride instead of taking a 25 minute train ride, rideshare is slowly bleeding public transit dry and its all because your loving lazy rear end doesn't want to plan ahead
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Apr 29, 2019 10:00
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Shipon posted:i get extremely pissed when people talk about taking a 10 minute uber ride instead of taking a 25 minute train ride, rideshare is slowly bleeding public transit dry and its all because your loving lazy rear end doesn't want to plan ahead yeah. MUNI and BART ridership is down like 15% compared to 4 years ago, despite major population boom and more people every year, bc everyone is taking uber and poo poo now. america #1
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Apr 29, 2019 10:02
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we took the bus for several years to work/grocery shopping/appointments and we planned ahead. the problem is that public transport is really unreliable, prone to delays, and just wastes more of our precious time off, especially when you're working full/nearly-full time and don't want to spend an extra 30 minutes waiting for the next bus bc the first one didn't show we had to just get a lyft several times because the bus was already over half an hour late and then still never showed after waiting for the lyft. I don't mind taking the bus/train. I like it. I have a license but don't have a car and I hate driving. I walk to work and to get groceries for the most part, but I'm lucky to live within walking distance to most of what I need, and also right on a bus line if it's necessary. obviously the solution is to loving fund public transport and the infrastructure to support it being accessible, reliable and yes, free, but lol america
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Apr 29, 2019 14:33
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i hate cars
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Apr 29, 2019 14:33
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comedyblissoption posted:cars, even subsidized, are expensive as gently caress for the vast majority of americans and still causes massive traffic congestion and carnage Lol at ever getting Americans to vote for reducing lanes given to cars. This is the kind of stuff that fails at a municipal level repeatedly. Thinking that abolishing capitalism alone solves the problem is naive as gently caress. You also either need an authoritarian government or a huge change in priorities across all individuals (some sort of individual action if you will).
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Apr 29, 2019 15:54
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Xaris posted:what if americans continue to drive cars because they're"pleasant" with their own little personal space-bubble fiefdom and "freedoms", and more importantly not having to ride with *boomer shifty eyes* "those people" I dunno how true this is really, most people I talk to irl agree vigorously that cars are stupid as hell and it'd be awesome to have better mass transit
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Apr 29, 2019 16:32
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Cars would have to be abolished on lots of lanes in lots of areas for public transportation to make any sense in an iterative fashion. Public transportation is basically worthless if you're stuck in gridlock with a bunch of individual automobiles.
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Apr 29, 2019 16:40
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I have been taking transit since I was 13. I have my license but just can't afford a car. I would love to use transit and not want a car. But today I have to walk 15 min to hop on a bus that runs only every 20 to get dropped off 10 min away from my girlfriend's house. In my city, you can see why people loathe public transit.
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Apr 29, 2019 16:43
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CrcleSqreSanchz posted:I have been taking transit since I was 13. I have my license but just can't afford a car. bicycle, my dude
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Apr 29, 2019 16:50
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vyelkin posted:bicycle, my dude great way to get yourself hit by a car in 80% of the US
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Apr 29, 2019 16:56
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the bitcoin of weed posted:great way to get yourself hit by a car in 80% of the US Canada my dude but the way this crumbling city is, may as well be. And yes bicycle paths and routes are patchy at best. Plus for the 6 (going on more thanks to climate change) months of -20 to -60 weather and fuuuuck your bikes
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Apr 29, 2019 17:15
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the bitcoin of weed posted:great way to get yourself hit by a car in 80% of the US After switching to biking I've resigned myself to the fact that getting hit by a car is a when not if thing.
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Apr 29, 2019 17:22
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lol we're gonna have to completely rebuild most of our cities to accomodate less driving and everyone who still lives in a suburb at that point is gonna revolt. something about living there just utterly melts your brain, probably the 45+ minute car commutes
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Apr 29, 2019 17:26
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I walk to work, but I still have a car because it just has too much utility (I only drive like 3k miles a year). Especially considering I have a 70 pound dog.
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Apr 29, 2019 17:29
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:Lol at ever getting Americans to vote for reducing lanes given to cars. This is the kind of stuff that fails at a municipal level repeatedly. so don't make that an election issue. make it "better infratstructure". or even "we're gonna make trains run on time, gently caress yeah" and then when all the idiot fash vote for you, you ban cars and replace them with trams and trolleybuses
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Apr 29, 2019 17:30
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actionjackson posted:I walk to work, but I still have a car because it just has too much utility (I only drive like 3k miles a year). Especially considering I have a 70 pound dog.  , but i think I drive less than that. I have to change my oil every 6 months because I don't even drive 800 miles in that time. i don't even know why i still own a vehicle.
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Apr 29, 2019 17:33
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Truga posted:so don't make that an election issue. make it "better infratstructure". or even "we're gonna make trains run on time, gently caress yeah" Have you participated in municipal level government action like... ever?
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Apr 29, 2019 17:36
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CrcleSqreSanchz posted:Canada my dude but the way this crumbling city is, may as well be. lol what is this weaksauce bullshit? biking at -30 is the best because there's way less people out so you have all the sidewalks to yourself, the weather's always sunny and also you can go as fast as you want and not sweat
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Apr 29, 2019 17:37
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:Have you participated in municipal level government action like... ever? it's a joke, sorry. i figured making the trains run on time would make it obvious
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Apr 29, 2019 17:37
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also please get involved with your municipal government. barely anyone does so you'll have a real voice and real power if you just show up. if you bring like 5 friends you can basically take over a town of 100k.
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Apr 29, 2019 17:39
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counterpoint: the people who do choose to get involved in municipal government are usually deeply insane and you'll spend all your time at transit meetings trying to talk over the 80 year old lady from a white flight suburb screaming about how taking the bus is sharia law
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Apr 29, 2019 17:41
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Admiral Ray posted:also please get involved with your municipal government. barely anyone does so you'll have a real voice and real power if you just show up. if you bring like 5 friends you can basically take over a town of 100k. Socialists should pick a low-pop region that'll weather climate change well and all move there. Create a little Norway. Like a socialist version of the Free State Project*. (* Some libertarians are trying to get all the other Libertarians to move to New Hampshire and take over. It's actually getting some results.)
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Apr 29, 2019 17:56
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as wildly pro local organizing and public-transit/new-urbanism as I am, the sad and simple fact is that most american "cities" will be more abandoned than fixed (think detroit). all of the good stuff scales as a function of density. if your area doesn't have around 4k people/km^2 or more its never gonna have good services. you're better off moving than going to town council meetings. you can cry all you want about how thats impractical and bad for the poor and if everybody did that it'd make rents even worse etc etc, thats all true but its still also true that its gonna happen. in fact, I would argue already has/is. v I think density is more important than raw size but yea at least 500k in the metro, if not 1m StabbinHobo has issued a correction as of 18:16 on Apr 29, 2019 |
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Apr 29, 2019 18:02
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StabbinHobo posted:as wildly pro local organizing and public-transit/new-urbanism as I am, the sad and simple fact is that most american "cities" will be more abandoned than fixed (think detroit). are you talking metros of 5k or 50k or 500k
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Apr 29, 2019 18:09
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I want to go to city council meetings in the brutalist arcology that just crams 5k people into half a square kilometre and has no surrounding suburb or other buildings
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Apr 29, 2019 18:22
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Accretionist posted:Socialists should pick a low-pop region that'll weather climate change well and all move there. Create a little Norway. won't we just get owned by cia funded death squads
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Apr 29, 2019 18:28
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the bitcoin of weed posted:counterpoint: the people who do choose to get involved in municipal government are usually deeply insane and you'll spend all your time at transit meetings trying to talk over the 80 year old lady from a white flight suburb screaming about how taking the bus is sharia law Years of posting online have honed my cat like reflexes to scratch these people in the face and hiss before running away. StabbinHobo posted:as wildly pro local organizing and public-transit/new-urbanism as I am, the sad and simple fact is that most american "cities" will be more abandoned than fixed (think detroit). Yeah this is the unfortunate truth of it, tho. Getting involved before you move is still valuable because you can use the skills you gain in yelling at city councils in small towns in larger cities.
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Apr 29, 2019 18:28
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actionjackson posted:I walk to work, but I still have a car because it just has too much utility (I only drive like 3k miles a year). Especially considering I have a 70 pound dog. Let's see the dog
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Apr 29, 2019 18:35
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Shipon posted:Political change won't include solutions to climate change unless it makes the hard decisions to coerce people into lowering their resource use AND is able to convince a large enough number of people that this is in their best interests. I think this is a central observation to make when it comes to doing anything about all this. There is no use thinking about humanity in general, "we're all in this together" style. Stopping climate change is going to be very explicitly about people who have less to lose than to win from coercing everyone to live in a sustainable way versus those who have too much to lose and would prefer to doom those outside their in-group. There is no cute little fix that only hurts the rich and leaves the rest unaffected, especially when the rich can give a lot to lose to whoever they want any time they want and hold political power by default that way. The world will be no place for happy, pluralist-democratic, middle-class socialism achieved through voting, demonstrations, strikes or civil disobedience because there's no one who would listen to passive appeals (eco-terrorism is a guaranteed dead-end for the same reason, anything not geared toward taking power is ultimately an appeal to the powers that be). The only socialism with a chance will be about the most anxious, vengeful and hopelessly optimistic sections of the poor paramilitarily taking on their counterparts among the well-off, settling who gets to suppress the other's right to exist as they are. Not in the form of some quick and sweeping revolutionary event either, but a long meatgrinder of escalating battles, naturally starting out in and leading from global centers of poverty rather than wealth. However unlikely, I see it as one of the only ways out anyway, because in order to get out of the prisoner's dilemma that currently undermines all international agreements, humanity needs to shift to cooperative, negotiated economic development internationally, requiring a plan for rough equalization on the basis of reparations rather than growth, which in practice would be considered a picture of injustice and tyranny, the unwashed hordes looting society and pulling their betters to their level when they should be meekly asking for guidance. At least we live in interesting times.
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Apr 29, 2019 18:49
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uncop posted:At least we live in interesting times. Yeah man, you can see Captain Marvel and Avengers: Endgame one right after another at theatres in my city!
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Apr 29, 2019 18:52
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the bitcoin of weed posted:lol we're gonna have to completely rebuild most of our cities to accomodate less driving and everyone who still lives in a suburb at that point is gonna revolt. something about living there just utterly melts your brain, probably the 45+ minute car commutes What's funny is that in cities like Denver, all the minorities live in suburbs because they can't afford to live in the city center. And yet everyone is still stuck in this weird 90s white flight from the cities mentality. Like, according to this thread, people that live in Bakersfield and work in LA are all white supremacists, not mostly black and brown people commuting hours a day because it's the only place they can afford to buy a home. Wake the gently caress up, it's 2019, white people live in the city core of desirable cities now. Preaching about density above all, gently caress your majority minority southern towns, more PoC in my white friend's new building is the only way forward bullshit, is the new white supremacy. dream9!bed!! has issued a correction as of 20:01 on Apr 29, 2019 |
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Apr 29, 2019 19:54
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dream9!bed!! posted:What's funny is that in cities like Denver, all the minorities live in suburbs because they can't afford to live in the city center. And yet everyone is still stuck in this weird 90s white flight from the cities mentality.
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Apr 29, 2019 20:04
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snoo posted:i hate cars
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Apr 29, 2019 20:04
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