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I think we should separate questions of the MCU and hollywood-at-large's obsession with guilt free violence from hot takes like "Cap raped Peggy" Its unfortunate that the prevalence for dishonest poo poo-stirring has lead to a reality where one cannot talk about anything in terms of the film's messaging without it being lumped in with dishonest trolling
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Apr 30, 2019 23:46
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By all means, let's start!
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Apr 30, 2019 23:47
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Supercar Gautier posted:MCU 2018: Every moving car on Earth crashes, either because its driver has vanished, or because it has been struck by some other now-driverless car We've seen previously that the mind stone has what might be termed a 'conciousness'. It's possible the gauntlet is sentient and I imagine you just think what you want and the mind stone does all the hard sums of not having people reappear in space/a wall/at 30,000 feet.
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Apr 30, 2019 23:47
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Mel Mudkiper posted:hollywood-at-large's obsession with guilt free violence I guess Civil War kind of puts a dent in this.
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Apr 30, 2019 23:52
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I think we should separate questions of the MCU and hollywood-at-large's obsession with guilt free violence from hot takes like "Cap raped Peggy" the clear answer is to believe all attempts at discussion are earnest and not worry about being 'trolled'
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Apr 30, 2019 23:53
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The most dishonest thing about the cap raped Peggy theory is that it requires the poster to pretend that they understand how the time travel works, which assumes it makes sense in the first place.
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May 1, 2019 00:00
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That's a fair point.
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May 1, 2019 00:04
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Again, it’s fuckin bizarre that people don’t have a counterargument. It’s just like ‘stop being mean to Steve; he’s a veteran he earned this’ or like ‘its gross I don’t want to think about it’ in the multi-googolplex death movie. But it’s also interesting that, with Spiderman thing, people are expressing sadness that Parker was forced to do that. Nobody’s doing a “not my Spiderman”.
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May 1, 2019 00:05
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Again, it’s fuckin bizarre that people don’t have a counterargument. It’s just like ‘stop being mean to Steve; he’s a veteran he earned this’ or like ‘its gross I don’t want to think about it’ in the multi-googolplex death movie. The counter argument is that he is Steve Rogers and Peggy missed him. If my partner turned up ten years older and explained she had fought through an army from an alternate universe to be with me, I'd accept it. He's the Steve that went into the ice. E: the master of magic and banner discuss the timeline returning to a single stream once Steve does his mission to return the stones. There's no requirement for him to return to 2019. There is one timeline and Steve Rogers is who he says he is. JBP fucked around with this message at 00:13 on May 1, 2019 |
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May 1, 2019 00:10
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I am confused, how is it possible to have a counter-argument based on the events in the film (the facts), when the premise is based on extra-factual assumptions (you have to assume that OG Cap was deceptive)?
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May 1, 2019 00:10
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Again, it’s fuckin bizarre that people don’t have a counterargument. It’s just like ‘stop being mean to Steve; he’s a veteran he earned this’ or like ‘its gross I don’t want to think about it’ in the multi-googolplex death movie. Please change the loving record.
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May 1, 2019 00:11
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i mean, i kinda am doing a 'not my spiderman' thing 'cause i think the mcu treatment of him is complete rear end and misses most of what i like about the character in other iterations might as well give him that lovely rear end captain universe costume if he's out fighting space aliens to the death
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May 1, 2019 00:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:But it’s also interesting that, with Spiderman thing, people are expressing sadness that Parker was forced to do that. Nobody’s doing a “not my Spiderman”. It's probably because most depictions of Spiderman kill at one point or another
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May 1, 2019 00:17
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quote:The most dishonest thing about the cap raped Peggy theory is that it requires the poster to pretend that they understand how the time travel works, which assumes it makes sense in the first place. The cool part about SMG's "Cap raped Peggy" idea is the implicit assumption that women have no agency
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May 1, 2019 00:18
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Again, it’s fuckin bizarre that people don’t have a counterargument. It’s just like ‘stop being mean to Steve; he’s a veteran he earned this’ or like ‘its gross I don’t want to think about it’ in the multi-googolplex death movie. Multiple people have given you a counter argument though. Assuming he tells her everything then it's not rape as there is no deception. This does still open up the problem of them then presumably leaving the other Steve frozen. This makes Steve and Peggy very selfish, but there is no rape involved.
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May 1, 2019 00:20
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RBA Starblade posted:The cool part about SMG's "Cap raped Peggy" idea is the implicit assumption that women have no agency Or that they're cool with loving both you and your doppleganger.
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May 1, 2019 00:21
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ruddiger posted:Or that they're cool with loving both you and your doppleganger. In that case only one of them would be going to bonetown since in order for it to be rape through omission/deceit she would never know she banged someone else unless they decided to get weird with it
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May 1, 2019 00:23
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Flying Zamboni posted:Multiple people have given you a counter argument though. Assuming he tells her everything then it's not rape as there is no deception. so either steve is a ghoulishly terrible person or steve and peggy are both ghoulishly terrible people great movie marvel
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May 1, 2019 00:25
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JBP posted:The counter argument is that he is Steve Rogers and Peggy missed him. If my partner turned up ten years older and explained she had fought through an army from an alternate universe to be with me, I'd accept it. He's the Steve that went into the ice. Too many contradictory events occur for it to be one timeline. Even if you accept that Captain America wrangles Loki back to Earth moments after he escapes, and injects the red goo back into Natalie Portman's blood right after Rocket steals it, and all the other shenanigans that perfectly closing the loop would require-- there's no accounting for the fact that Thanos, who is one person, dies twice. Or the fact that a younger Nebula is killed by an older Nebula. Or the fact that Gamora dies and also doesn't. All of those things only make sense via alternate timelines.
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May 1, 2019 00:27
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Brother Entropy posted:so either steve is a ghoulishly terrible person or steve and peggy are both ghoulishly terrible people Yeah, I can't think of any way within the logic of the movie that it doesn't set up ethical problems, it's only a matter of to what degree.
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May 1, 2019 00:27
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Brother Entropy posted:so either steve is a ghoulishly terrible person or steve and peggy are both ghoulishly terrible people Captain America: Personification of imperialist nation built on slavery and complicit in genocide and crimes against humanity. Thor: Same except for the time rapist part probably Iron Man: Capitalist warmonger and profiteer. Deploys child soldiers Black Widow: Same but for Soviet Russia also and also the time rapist thing Hawkeye: Probably pretty ok War Machine: Come on Hulk: Also probably pretty ok RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 01:26 on May 1, 2019 |
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May 1, 2019 00:28
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We literally only ever saw them dance. Edit: are we still supposed to be doing spoilers?
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May 1, 2019 00:29
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The implications of the time travel make Steve a terrible person but marrying Peggy is really the least of his sins.
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May 1, 2019 00:30
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Hobo Clown posted:We literally only ever saw them dance. We know that they were married.
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May 1, 2019 00:31
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Necrothatcher posted:We know that they were married. We only know that he's married
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May 1, 2019 00:32
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RBA Starblade posted:Hawkeye: Probably pretty ok Hawkeye got so mad that nonwhite people survived the snap that he went on murder sprees in Mexico, Japan, and god knows where else.
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May 1, 2019 00:34
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Supercar Gautier posted:Hawkeye got so mad that nonwhite people survived the snap that he went on murder sprees in Mexico, Japan, and god knows where else. Oh good point Hawkeye: Extrajudicial murderer. Bad haircut. Hulk: Still probably ok
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May 1, 2019 00:34
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He actually married Peggy's child as an old man
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May 1, 2019 00:36
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RBA Starblade posted:We only know that he's married ...to the women who he's romantically slow dancing with in the very next shot.
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May 1, 2019 00:37
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In an attempt to breed a generation of super soldiers, every female American of age is legally married to Steve Rogers.
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May 1, 2019 00:37
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Necrothatcher posted:...to the women who he's romantically slow dancing with in the very next shot. Maybe they broke up, lots of people romantically slow dance with lots of people. Like obviously they got married but if we're being literal about what they show then all they actually did we know for sure is dance in the 40s RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 01:27 on May 1, 2019 |
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May 1, 2019 00:37
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RBA Starblade posted:Maybe they broke up, lots of people romantically slow dance with lots of people What point are you trying to make here?
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May 1, 2019 00:38
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Necrothatcher posted:What point are you trying to make here? I was going off what Hobo Clown said - we literally only see a dance.  Everything else is up to our imaginations
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May 1, 2019 00:39
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Necrothatcher posted:What point are you trying to make here? I think he's just poking fun at people saying we need to explicitly view every event on screen rather than making easy inferences. RBA Starblade posted:I was going off what Hobo Clown said - we literally only see a dance.
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May 1, 2019 00:40
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Supercar Gautier posted:Too many contradictory events occur for it to be one timeline. That was his mission. Trimming the branches. He must've succeeded because the timeline did not fragment, else he could not have taken the long way home. In the MCU, it is possible through time shenanigans, for a being to die twice. This is shown, very clearly. There were no shown aftereffects, ripples, or paradoxes created when this happens which affect the timestream. This is in sharp contrast to pretty much every movie they rattle off, especially, Back to the Future.
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May 1, 2019 00:41
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Again, it’s fuckin bizarre that people don’t have a counterargument. Numerous people have a counter-argument. It's that "rape" implies purposeful deception on Steve's part, and there's no reason to assume that happened. Describing it as "rape" requires a whole imagined plot where Steve falsely claims to be the same man from her time, and totally omits every other detail. There's no reason to think that happened. You're usually dead-set against people imagining offscreen fanfic explanations for plot details, and you're doing exactly that here. I don't understand why this specific point is so central to your argument. There's plenty to discuss with regards to Steve being a time traveling doppelgänger from an alternate reality. The time travel logic of the movie is nonsensical in general. But "Steve Rogers: Time Rapist" is an extremely bizarre and stupid thing to fixate on. Edit: Thread moves too fast, but other people are saying the same things. Xealot fucked around with this message at 00:47 on May 1, 2019 |
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May 1, 2019 00:42
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JBP posted:I think he's just poking fun at people saying we need to explicitly view every event on screen rather than making easy inferences. Yeah I'm just playing around, it's really obvious they got married, though I don't think Hobo Clown's point of what we were actually shown should be that quickly dismissed.
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May 1, 2019 00:42
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JBP posted:The counter argument is that he is Steve Rogers and Peggy missed him. If my partner turned up ten years older and explained she had fought through an army from an alternate universe to be with me, I'd accept it. He's the Steve that went into the ice. That’s not your partner; it’s a clone with her memories. Like imagine there are three of these clones and your real partner - the one you fell in love with - is right beside you. I know that there have been a few jokes like “hurf blurf I’d have a foursome”, but we all know this would be a nightmare if it were to actually happen. And these reactions colour the whole film. It’s not just the ending, but your entire concept of heroism here - and your understanding of all the other scenes. There’s an whole sequence where Steve is annoyed by a younger clone for a reason. Moreover, there’s a whole Ang Lee superhero movie with that concept coming out soon. Like, the same crowd praising the ten-second Spice Girls thing are also saying that we shouldn’t talk about consent (or, more generally, this notion of the man being rewarded with a wife). I’m against that.
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May 1, 2019 00:44
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CBN_Shaggy posted:That was his mission. Trimming the branches. He must've succeeded because the timeline did not fragment, else he could not have taken the long way home. Fiction can be inconsistent or paradoxical whether or not the writer acknowledges that it is so. Just because you can write it doesn't mean it makes sense. "This statement is false" being the classic example. There are only two ways for Nebula to kill her younger self without creating a paradox. 1: Travelling to the past merely creates a temporary virtual instance of that past moment. This simulation contains genuine sentient beings and genuinely potent artifacts, any of which may be brought back by the traveler into the prime reality; however, none of the events which occur in this ephemeral space have any causal effect outside of its boundaries. 2: There's alternate timelines. Supercar Gautier fucked around with this message at 00:49 on May 1, 2019 |
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May 1, 2019 00:45
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That’s not your partner; it’s a clone with her memories. Like imagine there are three of these clones and your real partner - the one you fell in love with - is right beside you. I know that there have been a few jokes like “hurf blurf I’d have a foursome”, but we all know this would be a nightmare if it were to actually happen. If I could travel to an alternate dimension and be with a version of my dead partner I'd do it in a heartbeat.
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May 1, 2019 00:46
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