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Zurai
Feb 13, 2012


Wait -- I haven't even voted in this game yet!

The flip side is that if the Mindthief gets extra attacks from items or party members, those are not balanced assuming they're going to get an automatic +2 and the Mindthief will obliterate things with them.

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Elephant Ambush
Nov 13, 2012

...We sholde spenden more time together. What sayest thou?
Nap Ghost

pakman posted:

I ended up playing GH for the first time yesterday. The group I was running with had already run Black Barrow, but they had done it as a learning game. They did end up getting the treasure at the end, but failed to kill the boss due to some bad luck on cards draws in the very last round before they would be exhausted.

I picked Squirmt the Small, a vermling mindthief who is out to make a name for himself as a mercenary and collect 15 checkmarks over the scenarios . Squirmt rolled into the city of Gloomhaven and hired himself out to the Three Tit Split Adventuring Co., and was assigned to a group with a Spellweaver and Scoundrel. Squirmt's first contract came from a bejeweled red woman to hunt down a bandit who had stolen some items from her. However, before heading out in the wilds surrounding the city, the group decided to do a little shopping. Squirmt only had a meager 30g on him at the time, so could only afford a Poison Dagger and a Potion of Stamina. After grabbing some items for themselves, the group noticed a vendor buying and selling what seemed to be junk. (This is a city encounter we drew) After haggling a bit and selling off some junk, the group was paid with a strange black and white square coin. At first they were indignant to be paid with some unrecognizable currency, however, Squirmt suggested that perhaps researching this strange coin would lead to even greater treasure to which the group agreed. Subsequently, after some days in the city university library and a few back-alley deals, the group indeed gain a little information as to what this strange coin was. A dusty tome in the library had mentioned the coin was in fact a key to the Temple of the Eclipse (scenario 81), and gave some vague directions on how to get there.

With all the shopping completed, the Three Tit Split Adventuring Co. group decided that it was finally time to head out to the Black Barrow to find out what what actually going on. Who makes a base in a spot reserved for the dead? On the way to location given from beating up a few punks in the alleys of Gloomhaven, the group came across what appeared to be a man making GBS threads in the woods. He was crouched in the underbrush and mentioned that he had made quite a mess, but didn't have any leaves, and asked that we bring him some. The group, thinking this was some kind of trap, decided to rob him which resulted in a measly +2 gold for everyone. Maybe we should have just given him the leaves instead of being branded as the bad guys, Squirmt mentioned to his companions who simply laughed .

At midday on the second day out of the city, the group finally made it to Black Barrow. It wasn't hard to find at all; scraggly trees, the darkened ground of the hill, and the fairly obvious entrance, it wasn't hard to find at all. Upon entering the barrow, the groups was immediately beset by 6 brigands while the leader mocked them and walked further into the crypt. The lackeys and mercenaries were now alone, in a Gloomhavian Standoff until the Scoundel decided to get things started by rushing up and stabbing one of the bandits. Squirmt was quickly behind rushing up to another group of three and poisoning one (my battle goal card was to use use my equipped items a number of times equal to my level +2). Fire lashed out from the back of the room as the Spellweaver gave three of the bandits the what-for with some serious burns. However, when the bandits recovered from the shock of being rushed, returned the favor and brought the Scoundrel to very low health. The fighting persisted for several minutes as the bandits were slowly brought down with some clever stuns and squirmt's secret weapon: any wounds he suffered would be healed up attacking the bandits. Hoping no one would notice this ability and ask questions, he confidently took down 2 of the bandits over the course of the fight. By the end the Scoundrel wasn't looking too hot (1hp) while he and the Spellweaver were right as rain. However, this was only the entrance and the cocky leader had retreated to who-knows-where, so on the group pushed.

Opening the door to the adjoining room, the group was greeted by four snarling assholes, two of which seemed a little more confident than the others (two elites one guy at the front, and the archer in the back). While the Scoundrel was taking a little break, Squirmt and the Spellweaver ran into the room and started to beat up the guy with the shield. The archers in the back of the hallyway seemed a bit too far to be a threat at the time. However, Squirmt was unlucky and didn't do any damage to the shield-bearing bandit who deftly deflected his strike, but the Spellweaver had a little better luck and manage to visibly wound the man. The Scoundrel ran into the room looking a little harried. The archers realizing their mistake ran forward, but not before the one in the middle got off a lucky shot hitting Squirmt. The melee bandit then took a swipe at the (low hp) Scoundrel, and somehow missed, his mistake because he was now going to die. Seeing their friend being so quickly and mercilessly dispatched put the fear of the gods into the archers who faltered in their shots. Before the rest of them fell, they managed to set up some traps in the room, and the Scoundrel (I think) managed to pull one of the archers into the traps spotted near the door of the room and kill off the archer that had nailed Squirmt earlier in the fight.

While Squirmt and the Scoundrel were recovering from the latest battle, the Spellweaver decided it was a good idea to open the door just to take a peek, and what he saw, he did not like. It revealed why the bandit leader had chosen this bleak barrow for his base. He had somehow managed to command the skeletons of those buried there. Stepping back from the door, saying "whoops" the skeletons rushed the door. Squirmt was pretty pissed at the foolishness of the Spellweaver and decided to just unleash everything he had into the things occupying this room (I had saved all my cards that were lost when used for this room). Not only did he summon a swarm of chittering rats, but he also ended up disarming the bandit leader, stunning the skeletons, and poisoning a skeleton who was pushed into a trap and killed. He even drank his only poition of stamina to use some more abilities. The skeletons were quickly dispatched as was the lone archer in the room. THe scoundrel ran into the room and started picking up any gold he saw on the ground ignoring the leader who was still standing. squirmt, still angry, rushed up, with poison dagger held in the air, and savagely stabbed the leader to death (i pulled the 2x attack modifier card on the leader who had only 1hp left this also had me completing my battle goal).

After collecting the stolen goods for the woman, the group returned to Gloomhaven, but not before they ran into a man asking for help to rebuild some kind of machine that had been reduced to a smoking wreck. Not wanting to be branded like the bandits they just finished killing, the group decided to help the man repair his machine. After a few hours of hard work and direction from the man, he proclaimed his machine repaired, climbed in, and....flew? However, his flight was short-lived as not mere minutes later he again crashed. But when the group rushed up to see what happened, they found the man had died in the crash and left behind 5 gold which were split among the party . After a long trip, a good rest was needed until the group took their next contract, and they returned to the city.

..........

I ended up getting 8xp from the scenario, completing my battle goal, and getting one checkmark on my character sheet. The persistent spell effect that heals when I attack things in melee was my favorite card, as well as the ones that allow me to use the enemies to attack each other and the stuns were pretty useful. I saved everything for the end. Disarming the bandit leader made him sit around for a turn doing nothing, essentially. I didn't end up using the rat swarm because we were all jammed in the doorway to the third room, but there really wasn't a reason not to use it.

Playing this reminded me a lot of Descent, but better and with no dice. We used an app from BGG to deal with monster hp, status effects, cards, etc., and it made the game so much smoother to play. I'm definitely looking forward to playing this regularly.

First of all, thanks for this post. I love this stuff and wish we had more of it itt.

Secondly, you confused the heck out of me. Are you describing the events of both scenarios 1 and 2 together? Because some of the stuff you describe doesn't make any sense. There is no boss in scenario 1. You also don't do road events on the way back to Gloomhaven.

pakman
Jun 27, 2011

Elephant Ambush posted:

First of all, thanks for this post. I love this stuff and wish we had more of it itt.

Secondly, you confused the heck out of me. Are you describing the events of both scenarios 1 and 2 together? Because some of the stuff you describe doesn't make any sense. There is no boss in scenario 1. You also don't do road events on the way back to Gloomhaven.

There was an elite at the end of the dungeon which I considered the "boss," if that's not the correct term, then I apologize. We did do a road event on the way back to GH. I wasn't running the game, so I just took it for what it was. When are you supposed to be running road events?

Edit: We did three events: one in the city beforehand, one on the way to the scenario, and one on the way back to the city.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

pakman posted:

There was an elite at the end of the dungeon which I considered the "boss," if that's not the correct term, then I apologize. We did do a road event on the way back to GH. I wasn't running the game, so I just took it for what it was. When are you supposed to be running road events?

Edit: We did three events: one in the city beforehand, one on the way to the scenario, and one on the way back to the city.

You do one city event every time you're in town (between adventures, usually) and one road event each time you travel out to an event from town.

Basically, you play a road event before each scenario and a city event afterwards.

That's a little complicated by "linked" scenarios, and also if you choose not to go back to town after one adventure and just go straight to the next scenario.

"Boss Monsters" are a separate thing from elites.

Scenario two is "linked" to Scenario 1, and has a boss monster, so theoretically if you had gone straight from 1 to 2 it would have been a mistake to do a road event between. If you go back to town first and do a city event, you can then do a road event on the way out to 2 again.

Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Apr 28, 2019

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



So after an epic 9 hour session of 4 games, my beloved Brute, Beef McLargehuge has retired. (I did the personal quest about getting a poo poo ton of items and going into three spears so it was pretty quick with some planning ahead.

I feel kind of obligated to try three spears since it’s my group’s first unlock but from my skim of the cards I’m really not super into it.

Spoilers of like the first impressions from looking at its cards :

It just seems really support and item based, which is cool but not really in keeping with my more manic, run-and-gun style of play that I think is more fun for me personally to do (not knocking people who like support classes or saying they aren’t good ; I think real life medical doctors are amazing and vital, but that doesn’t make me want to be one).

Am I off base in my super shallow read of the class?

I think scoundrel or cragheart might be more my jam. Anyone wanna talk to me about three spears in general or in specific how I’m right or wrong?

Finally taking out two bears at full health in one turn feels great, cause gently caress bears. They were a pain in like 3 scenarios, especially elite bears. I’m only not spoiling this cause, well, they’re bears, you’d expect fighting them to suck. I just really hate bears now.

Elephant Ambush
Nov 13, 2012

...We sholde spenden more time together. What sayest thou?
Nap Ghost

Xiahou Dun posted:

So after an epic 9 hour session of 4 games, my beloved Brute, Beef McLargehuge has retired. (I did the personal quest about getting a poo poo ton of items and going into three spears so it was pretty quick with some planning ahead.

I feel kind of obligated to try three spears since it’s my group’s first unlock but from my skim of the cards I’m really not super into it.

Spoilers of like the first impressions from looking at its cards :

It just seems really support and item based, which is cool but not really in keeping with my more manic, run-and-gun style of play that I think is more fun for me personally to do (not knocking people who like support classes or saying they aren’t good ; I think real life medical doctors are amazing and vital, but that doesn’t make me want to be one).

Am I off base in my super shallow read of the class?

I think scoundrel or cragheart might be more my jam. Anyone wanna talk to me about three spears in general or in specific how I’m right or wrong?

Finally taking out two bears at full health in one turn feels great, cause gently caress bears. They were a pain in like 3 scenarios, especially elite bears. I’m only not spoiling this cause, well, they’re bears, you’d expect fighting them to suck. I just really hate bears now.

What level are you starting out?

Cragheart is probably more your style but 3 Spears is more than a support class. It's incredibly powerful even at level 1.

KingKapalone
Dec 20, 2005
1/16 Native American + 1/2 Hungarian = Totally Badass
Three Spears is the most powerful class in the game. You can one shot groups of +3 monsters.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

Xiahou Dun posted:


Am I off base in my super shallow read of the class?
Yeah. Three Spears is the most overpowered class in the game in its own right.

With that said, if you're low prosperity, it's not nearly as broken. It can be played support, sure, but it excels as a tanky damage-dealing cheese-monster.

On the "actually broken" side, there's its interactions with stamina potions. So much so that it can get itself into an infinite xp loop, should you so desire. Assuming you don't, imagine infinite uses of eagle-eye goggles, stamina potions, power potions, armor, etc. Imagine playing entire scenarios without taking a rest, long or short.

It scales exponentially with the items you've unlocked.

Some tables report that it makes the game less fun for everyone.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



We’re at prosperity 3 with everyone else around 7th level.

What’s the infinite loop? I wouldn’t use it but I find that poo poo hilarious.

DontMockMySmock
Aug 9, 2008

I got this title for the dumbest fucking possible take on sea shanties. Specifically, I derailed the meme thread because sailors in the 18th century weren't woke enough for me, and you shouldn't sing sea shanties. In fact, don't have any fun ever.
I just retired a 3 Spears at level 4, and I didn't really go support at all, just focused on efficient bashing and tanking. I didn't really try to go all broken with stamina potions and stuff, and I don't know how the class plays past level 4, but in my experience you can just be tanky and speedy and do a lot of murder if you want. More in depth spoilers on my strategy: I enhanced Strengthen on his move 2 shield 1, and jammed that as often as possible to be harder to kill and also good at killing, especially with multiattacks/bottom attacks. The biggest tank thing about him is that he gets "ignore item effects and add 2 +1 cards", which is a fairly powerful perk with chainmail. I usually carried into battle basically two support cards, a decent heal and the "all allies in range 2 refresh an item" card Restock, but mostly used the heal on myself and used the bottom half of Restock (and generally chucked it at my first long rest anyway). So I wasn't really supporty at all. This was a two-player campaign though so maybe I'd go more support if there were more allies around to help.

Elephant Ambush
Nov 13, 2012

...We sholde spenden more time together. What sayest thou?
Nap Ghost

DontMockMySmock posted:

I just retired a 3 Spears at level 4, and I didn't really go support at all, just focused on efficient bashing and tanking. I didn't really try to go all broken with stamina potions and stuff, and I don't know how the class plays past level 4, but in my experience you can just be tanky and speedy and do a lot of murder if you want. More in depth spoilers on my strategy: I enhanced Strengthen on his move 2 shield 1, and jammed that as often as possible to be harder to kill and also good at killing, especially with multiattacks/bottom attacks. The biggest tank thing about him is that he gets "ignore item effects and add 2 +1 cards", which is a fairly powerful perk with chainmail. I usually carried into battle basically two support cards, a decent heal and the "all allies in range 2 refresh an item" card Restock, but mostly used the heal on myself and used the bottom half of Restock (and generally chucked it at my first long rest anyway). So I wasn't really supporty at all. This was a two-player campaign though so maybe I'd go more support if there were more allies around to help.

My wife just retired a 3 Spears at level 9 and I can say without exaggeration that it somehow manages to get more ridiculous with every level. It was the most hilarious thing to watch her do whatever she wanted with no fear or risk.

We're at Prosperity 6 and have a ton of unlocked random item designs and have looted every chest so far so she had everything she needed to be an immortal destroyer of worlds.

Elephant Ambush fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Apr 29, 2019

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

Xiahou Dun posted:

We’re at prosperity 3 with everyone else around 7th level.

What’s the infinite loop? I wouldn’t use it but I find that poo poo hilarious.
This has a (really obvious) P4 spoiler regarding a 'greater' version of an item you've seen a 'lesser' of, so FYI.

Scroll of Recall, Sharpening Kit, Major Stamina Potion. Keep the last slow/dumb enemy alive, mercilessly kite them until the other players decide to flip over the table.

My honest to god recommendation is that if you're bringing Three Spears into a game, at a minimum make Stamina Potions and all similar items non-recoverable. You can also use Isaac's pending nerf (reduce recovered cards by 1) but that doesn't go quite far enough on its own.

FYI - Your best perk is the +0 / recover any item. Remember that this works for both Spent and Consumed items. How crazy does this get? Well, it is literally actually legal to play a big AoE with a Power Potion, flip one of those modifier cards on an attack, recover that same power potion, and use it again for the rest of the AoE targets. Keeping in mind that due to a persistent L5 card, you can freely untap any of your spent items at the start of every turn, so you have eagle-eye goggles forever. Or armor/shield forever. Or boots of striding forever.


FYI - if you are interested in build guides (and many are take-or-leave) here's two. Heavy spoilers for both of course.

First, for running Three Spears like an actual class with a minimal level of cheese and no infinite loops (this is how I would recommend playing): https://imgur.com/a/xFFu6

Second, one that leans more into the cheese: https://imgur.com/a/BECJ5Vu

dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Apr 29, 2019

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."
Forgotten Circles is shipping.

Southpaugh
May 26, 2007

Smokey Bacon


Spoilers for Prosperity 5, circles, two minis and lightning bolt below:



Started gloomhaven in february, we are now at the point that we have only three classes left to unlock (three spears, eclipse and cthulu), at level 5 properity and as a group, having a lot of fun. But there are some glaring design issues, this became very apparent once I read the rules for summoner and just WTF'ed - we opened the box at prosperity lvl 4 and most of our existing characters were between 3-5 so we stuck with level 4 and jesus gently caress - what a terrible class. Clearly pretty strong at level 1 and look at the cards and summons probably good again around level 7ish but wow, its effectively broken because your melee summons don't have the HP to be relevant. My friend was playing summoner and he had basically no effective moves from his hand, now he was used to playing mindthief and I'm sure he could have wrung more enjoyment out of the class with being less rigid in his chosen actions but, fundamentally I don't see how the class can be truly effective, especially compared with the beast tyrant. Maybe if it was a melee hybrid or something to make up for this? I'm sure this is a common enough comment once people open this class but wow, what a disappointment.

Said friend just moved onto berserker and is already having a much better time. Berserker seems like one of the better designed classes?

We just opened up beast tyrant and it appears to be the non-crap version of summoner, just better in every imaginable way. Down to having a card that makes all summoned allies attack AND you don't have to be adjacent to them, unlike summoner. The bear might be my favourite mini in the box too!

I'm also enjoying the ongoing town records stuff a lot too, its a nice casual hook for the main story to include.

Elephant Ambush
Nov 13, 2012

...We sholde spenden more time together. What sayest thou?
Nap Ghost
Circles is fine. My friend is playing it now at level 6 and it's fine. It just requires more work to be effective. Your friend is probably playing it sub-optimally.

Two Minis owns though. That same friend loves that class. It's his favorite.

Piell
Sep 3, 2006

Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer


Young Orc
Circles is one of the worst classes by itself (there is a class that it gets better when teamed up with).

Elephant Ambush
Nov 13, 2012

...We sholde spenden more time together. What sayest thou?
Nap Ghost

Piell posted:

Circles is one of the worst classes by itself (there is a class that it gets better when teamed up with).

Well there has to be a "worst" class and the community overwhelmingly agrees that it's Circles. That doesn't mean it's bad though. You just can't take the same cards to every scenario and play the same way every time. It's a class that requires skill and finesse and teamwork with other party members.

And judging by the BGG forums and reddit, a large portion of the community are really dumb and are bad at the game so I take what people say with a huge chunk of salt.

Zurai
Feb 13, 2012


Wait -- I haven't even voted in this game yet!

Circles also gets better with fewer players. It's extremely good in 2p play.

LongDarkNight
Oct 25, 2010

It's like watching the collapse of Western civilization in fast forward.
Oven Wrangler

Elephant Ambush posted:

Well there has to be a "worst" class and the community overwhelmingly agrees that it's Circles. That doesn't mean it's bad though. You just can't take the same cards to every scenario and play the same way every time. It's a class that requires skill and finesse and teamwork with other party members.

The person in my group that played Circles complained about the opposite, that he brought the same array of cards every time. One of my friends play in a different group was also saying she was having a hard time with Circles.

For my money though Brute is the worst class.

Southpaugh
May 26, 2007

Smokey Bacon


Yeah I don't really believe that theres any such thing as a bad class - theres a class that is less good for a specific role. The problem he was running into with circles is that his summons getting wiped by AOEs, positioning being difficult etc, I was of the opinon that he'd have had a better time using his ranged abilities and throwing out status effects rather than trying to do mindthief amounts of damage with a ranged summoner character.

I've been playing saw since I retired my scoundrel and I've been really enjoying the hybrid damage, CC, support abilities. I'd read a fair bit online about him being an underused class but he can do a bit of everything and with a few levels he has combos and abilities that just delete big nasty enemies and groups of small ones. Really flexible and enjoyable class.

Elephant Ambush
Nov 13, 2012

...We sholde spenden more time together. What sayest thou?
Nap Ghost
Circles and Two Minis: The going line in our group is that when summons are involved, everyone is playing the summons. Groups with selfish players make life harder for summons.

Saw: Owns. Our returning 4th player rolled one up last night and will start playing with us again this weekend. He went mostly offensive and will use some of the basic heals because we have Music Note in our party so he won't need to heal as much.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008

Elephant Ambush posted:

Well there has to be a "worst" class and the community overwhelmingly agrees that it's Circles. That doesn't mean it's bad though. You just can't take the same cards to every scenario and play the same way every time. It's a class that requires skill and finesse and teamwork with other party members.

And judging by the BGG forums and reddit, a large portion of the community are really dumb and are bad at the game so I take what people say with a huge chunk of salt.

Circles is the most difficult class to play (well, there may be a harder class to play but it can't be mentioned at all), maybe matched by Triforce, but it is unquestionably not the weakest class. I'd say Tinkerer might be weaker, though I've not seen one in high-level play (past L5); Tinkerer is just very forgiving when you're first starting to play. And all my experience with Circles is seeing it played in a four-player group, where it is weaker.

Basic Circles notes (no other spoilers): The class has an excellent XP curve, good endurance (assuming you recover your lost summons), and a large number of useful tools. Beyond needing to have the monster focusing rules down cold, the biggest challenge with the class is that summons don't scale with level, so you need to keep adjusting your expectations. The ranged-attack summons are key cards, because you can keep them functioning through multiple turns and probably through multiple rooms; your melee summons all have extremely limited utility but are great within that limitation. You need another character with speedy cards willing to take hits for those melee summons, except for the ones that you want to get attacked. At mid-to-high level, your key cards are all your Summon movement/attack cards. It's pretty trivial to have a turn as Circles where you get to take 2 or 3 summon attacks, do a little healing, and then take 2-3 more summon attacks. In a boss-focused situation, you can drop a big summons and make it attack multiple times a turn.

A few specific tips: don't have too many summons out at once (2-3 cards' worth seems to be the sweet spot), understand how to work initiative (very slow summoning, followed by a fast init turn if you want them to get an action in fast; constant slow initiatives if you want other people to pull focus), and know what situations call for your direct attack cards instead (Fire Demons are the bane of your summons).

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011
I played the hell out of Circles and it's probably my second or third favorite class. That said, there are a few things to keep in mind....

Circles spoilers, some minor non-boss enemy spoilers, and minor non-specific item spoilers

1) You are not a Pokemon Master.

The point of being a Summoner is not to sit back and send in your hordes to do everything. Your summons are loss cards that have the capability to deal a truly obscene amount of damage per card given proper support. They are difficult to use and finicky, but are capable of great things. You are not mean to fire and forget them.

So, first of all, remember this: you have mid-tier HP, same as a Scoundrel or Tinkerer. You can and often should maneuver yourself in such a way that you take an enemy's attack, not your summons.

"But wait, I have tanky summons!"

Yes, you do have an Iron Golem, and later on a Slime Spirit and a couple of other obviously defensive cards. They are not meant to be everlasting tanks. An Iron Golem is not a Brute. They are meant to buy time. Would you play a loss card that said "you and all of your allies have Shield 5 to 10 for the round". Yeah, I imagine you could see a couple of uses for that. Well, that's what the Iron Golem does, absorb five to ten points of damage as a loss card. Which brings me to point number two.


2) You do not have a nine card hand. You have a twelve card hand. Sort of.

Unending Dominance is an awesome summon, but it also gets you an insane amount of extra turns, and you'll usually use it for the second quality. Losing one card to get three back gets you somewhere around an 11-12 card hand, effectively; just with weirder rest cycles and the choice of only bringing in nine cards.

With Unending Dominance being nearly mandatory, you've got eight actual choices to bring. Inside of those eight choices you need to pack a large punch. I suggest, more than any other class, tailoring your card selection for the scenario at hand. By the time I retired my Summoner, I'd seen multiple use cases for every single card in their kit.


3) You are a toolbox.

Speaking of tailoring your card picks, pay attention to the enemy loadout. Don't bring a bunch of melee summons with Flame Demons. Don't plan on summoning all of the hordes in fights with Living Spirits or Ancient Artillery (that's just asking for trouble). Don't use the Bat for mostly open rooms. Don't use the Bomb for boss fights. If there's going to be wounds, bring healing. If there's going to be Curses, bring stuff that gives Strengthen or blesses or multiple attacks. If there's shields, bring the wolves.

If there's anything, bring the Thorn Shooter, and later on the Void Eater. Seriously, those two are never bad.


4) I don't have a pithy title for this one.

As a general rule, bring no more than four summons along. Any more than that and you force yourself to waste half a card on an Attack 2 from time to time. This isn't necessarily a bad thing -- the Summoner has an insanely strong modifier deck -- but it's nonoptimal when you could be throwing real attacks out.


5) Summoning items are actually kind of decent.

No one makes use of items with summons better than the Summoner, although they're not as great as you'd think. They're best for surprise attacks with Divided Mind or for being a second body to use with Strength in Numbers.


6) You've got three general modes of play: melee toolbox, ranged bombardment, and single summon empowerment.

In the first mode, you utilize summons like the Shadow Wolves and Iron Golems to tear your opponents apart with pure damage. You stand up front to support them, moving forward to fill in holes and draw fire. This mode is excellent because you can throw down some extreme damage really fast. The problem is enemies with retaliate or AOEs: you'll be torn apart far faster than you'd like.

In the second mode, you utilize summons like the Thorn Shooter, Void Eater, and Healing Sprites to pepper your opponents from afar. You stand behind them, joining in the shooting, and utilizing your buffs to empower them. This mode is excellent because your summons get to stay safer and the ranged summons have powerful effects to compensate for their low damage. Additionally, because you're firing at range everyone is more likely to stay together, letting abilities like Leathery Wings have value. The problem is that these summons tend to have lower movement, and the range requirements often lead to them getting stuck in doorways.

In the third mode, you dispense with summoning multiple allies. Rather, you plan to bring along one summon and work together with it, utilizing your variety of non-summon attacks and debuffs to make up for the lost power from the other summons. Having only one summoned ally means you can consistently focus all of your defensive abilities where they need to be. This mode is excellent because you have a single strong point of failure instead of being easily defeated in detail, and this allows you to efficiently make use of singular power summons like the Lava Golem, Rock Colossus, and Black Unicorn. The problem is that a single misstep can destroy your entire game plan, because a ten damage crit on a Shadow Wolf in round 3 is an inconvenience where a ten damage crit on a Lava Golem in round 3 is a disaster.

At early levels you're likely to be using a hodgepodge of all three modes of play, mixing and matching Wolves and Shooters and whatnot. As you level, you'll find that a focus approach works best. Once again, it's best to adapt your style of play to the scenario at hand.


7) Don't buy gear.

I mean like, obviously do buy stuff.

But weapons don't boost your summons. Armor can only protect you. Attack buffs can only boost you. More than literally any other class by a ludicrous margin, the Summoner wants to spend money on enhancements. A movement or power boost for a frequently used summon can make a world of difference, far more than some random healing potion or a minor armor upgrade. Finally, definitely consider enhancing the bottom of Forged Ferocity. +1 Shield is expensive but impactful, while Bless and Strengthen can multiple your damage immensely (you haven't lived until you're consistently running out the Blessings every two or three turns even as they're flipped like candy).


8) If you're still not having fun, change the rules.

I made the mistake of my first few levels of Summoner play forgetting a key rule. RAW summons are supposed to act in the order they were summoned. If you or another player is feeling frustrated with the inability to keep the cats herded, consider altering this rule so that the player chooses what order their summons act in every round. It's a bit of a power boost, although nowhere near on the level of the commonly suggested two-pile advantage rule. It adds a lot more control and can turn the class from feeling frustrating to feeling highly tactical. Even on turns where the order of operations doesn't matter much, the illusion of control can do a lot to keep someone from being annoyed instead of enjoying themselves.

Arrinien
Oct 22, 2010





How is Circles at low levels? My group finished the main campaign and has just started Into the Unknown. We did have someone play Circles in the main campaign around level 6 or 7, and I'd like to try Circles when we do Capital Intrigue next, but I'm a bit worried that at low level with no money and no items he's not going to be very fun. I'd like to avoid level 1 Triforce levels of frustration.

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011

Arrinien posted:

How is Circles at low levels? My group finished the main campaign and has just started Into the Unknown. We did have someone play Circles in the main campaign around level 6 or 7, and I'd like to try Circles when we do Capital Intrigue next, but I'm a bit worried that at low level with no money and no items he's not going to be very fun. I'd like to avoid level 1 Triforce levels of frustration.



Circles:

I started it at level 4, so that's decently close to level 1. You're not really gear dependent so that bit might not bother you much, but you do miss out on the super amazing modifier deck.

At level 1, I'd consider pulling in Volatile Flame and Leathery Wings and taking out Forged Ferocity and Unwavering Hand. This gives you a lot of nice toys: Thorn Shooter for Poison, double attack turns with both a top and bottom attack using Volatile Flame + Black Fire/Biting Wind (boosted by the aforementioned Poison, even), combining Leathery Wings' bat summon with eternally amped Biting Wind...the core of the class is there. You just don't have the super cards like Divided Mind or Strength in Numbers, but you'll be fine without it.

Alternatively, just plant the Thorn Shooter somewhere and just use that and shoot things down. It's seriously good.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord
Woot. Got my shipping confirmation for Forgotten Circles.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord
Whoa poo poo I just read that there's 8 updated character cards in FC which change existing abilities to teleports?

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/31559802#31559802

e: Also enhancement stickers to add Regenerate to abilities.

Oh gosh there's gonna be stuff to use right away.

dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 01:22 on May 1, 2019

Deviant
Sep 26, 2003

i've forgotten all of your names.


dwarf74 posted:

Whoa poo poo I just read that there's 8 updated character cards in FC which change existing abilities to teleports?

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/31559802#31559802

e: Also enhancement stickers to add Regenerate to abilities.

Oh gosh there's gonna be stuff to use right away.

that is if your group has the power of enhancement

oh my god just loving quit getting distracted and go to 14 you idiots

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



Is that where that is?

My group knows it's a thing and wants it, but we've just been flailing about not knowing how to unlock it. Are we just dumb?

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Xiahou Dun posted:

Is that where that is?

My group knows it's a thing and wants it, but we've just been flailing about not knowing how to unlock it. Are we just dumb?

Power of Enhancement is unlocked in scenario #14. Lots of different things will send you to #14 but if you pick certain quest options you can get pretty deep into the game without getting the breadcrumb.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



I just bothered to fight through Mount Cardboard to pull out the scenario book, and holy poo poo we've had that location unlocked forever and have always just gone elsewhere cause it looked both kind of scary but also boring.

Well I'll have to awkwardly signal that we should go there next session because reasons.

Thanks!

Still can't decide if I want to come back as a three spears or a cragheart next time. The current vibe is that my group will miss me being Captain Tank.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

Xiahou Dun posted:

Still can't decide if I want to come back as a three spears or a cragheart next time. The current vibe is that my group will miss me being Captain Tank.
Cragheart is not a good tank, despite the high hp. Three Spears can be tanky if built right, but it's not really his main thing.

Also power of enhancement is not a spoiler. It's in the drat rulebook. :) However the dungeon which unlocks it is.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



Yeah I really miss my Brute. I loved that play-style. Which unlockable classes are closest, just so I keep an eye out for the future?

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Xiahou Dun posted:

Yeah I really miss my Brute. I loved that play-style. Which unlockable classes are closest, just so I keep an eye out for the future?

Sun is a paladin to the brute's warrior. Sun tanks a bit better (and has healing / buffing), while the Brute has more damage / control options and actual AoE.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

Xiahou Dun posted:

Yeah I really miss my Brute. I loved that play-style. Which unlockable classes are closest, just so I keep an eye out for the future?
There are two separate spoilers here.

Sun is the only real tank in the game, when it comes down to it. Brute's beefy, but he still doesn't want to just stand there and take hits to the face. Sun is also probably the easiest unlock since you get it with reputation 10. The next spoiler has specific class details and big class spoilers so I broke this up in case you want to avoid that.

Big time spoilers:

Okay so you know how the Brute has that card that gives them Shield on the next 6 attacks, and also is great at heavy armor with a good perk? Well Sun just crushes that into the ground.

It has a Level 1 card which gives you Shield 1 for the entire combat at the cost of -1 to all movement. Fortunately it also has great movement cards so this is less of a big deal if you are careful and get good footwear. What's more, that Shield 1 can be enhanced to Shield 2 for 100 gold. Perpetual Shield 2 is bonkers.

But wait, there's more. In addition to the aforementioned heavy armor perk (but better) it has a lot of cards that add shields on top for the round. So you're often at 3 or 4 before gear.

But wait. There's yet more. You know how Retaliate is kinda disappointing because you have to take hits in a game where you don't want to be hit? Well Sun can take those hits and also has a persistent Retaliate 2 card (though it nerfs your actual attacks - which, again, are actually really good.) Oh and this can be enhanced too. It's the epitome of tanking. You melt stuff and never need to attack.

It's a really good class if you like this style. (And even if you don't there's a perfectly viable fast-moving good-damage branch and a very respectable support branch.) The downside is you have no AoE at all and you basically don't have ranged attacks except for bad ones and losses.

dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 05:19 on May 1, 2019

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



:stare:

As someone who just guzzled being a 4e D&D brawler fighter, I apparently need to get access to sun as quickly as humanly possible.

:stare:

Christ that sounds awesome. Thanks!

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

Xiahou Dun posted:

:stare:

As someone who just guzzled being a 4e D&D brawler fighter, I apparently need to get access to sun as quickly as humanly possible.

:stare:

Christ that sounds awesome. Thanks!
Glad to help!


I love it. I might reroll another one once I retire this one. :)

Keep in mind, full tanks are really better at higher player counts. Sun can still be super loving tanky, but you won't want to go fully down the Retaliate/break your fist on my face build unless theres a minimum of 3 and preferably 4 players. It's good though - the tanky hit hard version is every bit as good.

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"

Xiahou Dun posted:

:stare:

As someone who just guzzled being a 4e D&D brawler fighter, I apparently need to get access to sun as quickly as humanly possible.

:stare:

Christ that sounds awesome. Thanks!

Sun: In addition, if you can make it to level 9, the class has a card that allows you to take damage that other characters would instead of them.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



Some Numbers posted:

Sun: In addition, if you can make it to level 9, the class has a card that allows you to take damage that other characters would instead of them.

I know this isn't great forums posting but I can only respond to this with :

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have a big group so this sounds amazing. drat that sounds good. I'm gonna unlock that poo poo and cast the mini in bronze. drat!

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Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"

Xiahou Dun posted:

I know this isn't great forums posting but I can only respond to this with :

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have a big group so this sounds amazing. drat that sounds good. I'm gonna unlock that poo poo and cast the mini in bronze. drat!

That's a completely reasonable reaction, because the class is just dumb.

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