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bawfuls posted:hence the need for a federal jobs guarantee which can funnel people into work that is productive towards the goal of decarbonization and regeneration of the natural world Okay but what if they just do what they did when Obama told them they could retrain into clean energy jobs (yes, horseshit in the end) and they threw a massive fit saying they wanted to do what their parents and grandparents did and worked in the coal mines or the auto factories? They're still going to fight something simply because it's unfamiliar to them.
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May 8, 2019 21:41
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bawfuls posted:There is no functional difference between the positions of posters like Mordor She Wrote/Oxxidation and the position of the growing fascist movements around the world. sorry to be the one to break this to you, but making you sad about how humanity is going extinct is p. functionally distinct from shooting up a local synagogue
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May 8, 2019 21:45
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Shipon posted:Okay but what if they just do what they did when Obama told them they could retrain into clean energy jobs (yes, horseshit in the end) and they threw a massive fit saying they wanted to do what their parents and grandparents did and worked in the coal mines or the auto factories? They're still going to fight something simply because it's unfamiliar to them. There's like 40k of them left and I can't imagine that if you gave them a fat pension and a big thank you for your service instead of "gl here's some lovely job training I guess lol" they'd be that angry about it.
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May 8, 2019 21:45
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Shipon posted:Okay but what if they just do what they did when Obama told them they could retrain into clean energy jobs (yes, horseshit in the end) and they threw a massive fit saying they wanted to do what their parents and grandparents did and worked in the coal mines or the auto factories? They're still going to fight something simply because it's unfamiliar to them. Well right, if we know its horseshit in the end, why poo poo on people for not falling for the bs?
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May 8, 2019 21:46
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Well, I'm not making GBS threads on the miners. Jobs training is a crap deal with lovely results, statistically. It's the standard liberal bullshit move that helps no one but looks good on the surface.
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May 8, 2019 21:46
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Moridin920 posted:It's not a 0 or 1 situation. Yeah, we're not going to avert disaster. But maybe we can avert 100% extinction. I mean I guess encourage anti natalism and just make sure this generation is the last one, that’s probably going to be the only thing to do that’ll spare most of the life on the planet. outside of that and punishing the people responsible I dont think there’s much you can do, cleaning up your local river or forest won’t matter when capital decides it really wants it.
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May 8, 2019 21:47
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Mordor She Wrote posted:humanity isn’t just irrecoverably evil, the people who aren’t evil are irrecoverably stupid to the point of being indistinguishable from evil. no one here is arguing that if we just try hard enough we can get back to the climate and biosphere of 50 or 100 years ago within our lifetimes. That ship has sailed. We are arguing that we can at least get to a climate/biosphere that isn't uncontrollably deteriorating in our lifetimes, and avoid human extinction.
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May 8, 2019 21:48
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make me emperor of the earth and i'll solve the hell out of climate change most of you probably wouldn't enjoy my methods, but i can guarantee results
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May 8, 2019 21:50
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Shipon posted:Okay but what if they just do what they did when Obama told them they could retrain into clean energy jobs (yes, horseshit in the end) and they threw a massive fit saying they wanted to do what their parents and grandparents did and worked in the coal mines or the auto factories? They're still going to fight something simply because it's unfamiliar to them. https://beltmag.com/appalachia-coding-bootcamps/ This same scam has actually been going on for quite some time, since the first dot com boom in fact. The fact is that the coal mines are the only jobs that have ever provided a middle class income for a large population in some of these regions. They want the mine back because life was better when it was there and these "green jobs" or amazon distribution warehouses or call centers aren't paying anything like what the mines did.
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May 8, 2019 21:51
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Wakko posted:sorry to be the one to break this to you, but making you sad about how humanity is going extinct is p. functionally distinct from shooting up a local synagogue the logical conclusion to that line of argument is that you might as well horde what you can and make your life comfortable for now, because again their argument is basically "humanity isn't worth saving" the motivations are different but the resulting politics are the same
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May 8, 2019 21:51
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bawfuls posted:where are you getting this asinine 2 year deadline from? https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/03/stop-biodiversity-loss-or-we-could-face-our-own-extinction-warns-un and even if it wasn’t two years, 10 years, 12 years, the time frame doesn’t matter because you’re not going to succeed.
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May 8, 2019 21:52
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There aren't enough macro-engineering proposals. We should flood in-land depressions. In-land seas buffer temperature fluctuation and increase moisture, cloudiness. It may not be useful but it would be rad. Inspire hope, etc. edit: doooo iiiitttt   
Accretionist has issued a correction as of 22:01 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 21:54
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bawfuls posted:no one said this in this thread, but yeah it's a big part of the problem That sure was my reading of: bawfuls posted:Sorry, I'm not sadbrained enough to buy the thesis that people are just intrinsically too evil/stupid/selfish to do anything. We know what the culprit is (systemic, i.e. capitalism). The path forward is incredibly difficult, but that doesn't make it impossible. bawfuls posted:If you think humanity is evil, unsalvagable, and extinction is the only end-game, then FYGM becomes the logical position. That's a pretty big leap from antecedent to consequent in that inference!!
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May 8, 2019 22:08
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bawfuls posted:the logical conclusion to that line of argument is that you might as well horde what you can and make your life comfortable for now this reflects more on you than it does on them my dude the logical conclusion can also be that it's important to ensure things are as just and equitable as possible as the dying of all lights kicks off
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May 8, 2019 22:12
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hobbesmaster posted:https://beltmag.com/appalachia-coding-bootcamps/ That's a fair point but who's to say you can even create enough jobs in these places that will give everyone a decent living? If you don't create jobs and instead give everyone the basic survival necessities like housing, food, healthcare, and education that's great, but if you do nothing else people will sit around all day slowly losing their minds at being simply unnecessary or having no purpose in daily life. Are the workers councils society would be organized around going to be ok with this? Yes, there's plenty of infrastructure work that needs to be done all over the place, but infrastructure work isn't simply work anyone can pop in and out of. It's skilled labor that takes time for people to train in.
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May 8, 2019 22:18
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hobbesmaster posted:https://beltmag.com/appalachia-coding-bootcamps/ Don't mine jobs pay well because of decades of unionisation and fighting for workers rights? Could that possibly have any implication for how to get better pay for workers now? 
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May 8, 2019 22:20
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Mordor She Wrote posted:Everyone thinking about suicide, don't do it yet, look at this map. is that map distorted or is my mental image of north america distorted from years of looking at wrong maps
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May 8, 2019 22:21
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jobson groeth posted:Don't mine jobs pay well because of decades of unionisation and fighting for workers rights? Could that possibly have any implication for how to get better pay for workers now? Those unions are going to try and protect their members' jobs as is their purpose. Good for the workers, but the unfortunate reality that their industry is a bad one isn't something the union is going to sacrifice their main mission for.
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May 8, 2019 22:23
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Sure, individual humans are kind of dumb and mean, and we're even dumber and meaner in aggregate. Humanity is a lot more than humans, though. We can make things that outlast us and communicate across vast amounts of space and time. So we have a lot of written knowledge and institutions and principles built and refined over millennia. It defines us more than biology does at this point. But yeah, if you take away all of that we're little more than somewhat clever chimps.
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May 8, 2019 22:38
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Shipon posted:Those unions are going to try and protect their members' jobs as is their purpose. Good for the workers, but the unfortunate reality that their industry is a bad one isn't something the union is going to sacrifice their main mission for. What if other jobs took a leaf out of their book and unionised too so that all workers were getting a fair days pay for a fair days work? Then everyone could be happy and reskilling for new jobs wouldn't mean a slow death of your town.
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May 8, 2019 22:40
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jobson groeth posted:Don't mine jobs pay well because of decades of unionisation and fighting for workers rights? Could that possibly have any implication for how to get better pay for workers now? Miners basically went to war for those benefits. Shipon posted:That's a fair point but who's to say you can even create enough jobs in these places that will give everyone a decent living? If you don't create jobs and instead give everyone the basic survival necessities like housing, food, healthcare, and education that's great, but if you do nothing else people will sit around all day slowly losing their minds at being simply unnecessary or having no purpose in daily life. Are the workers councils society would be organized around going to be ok with this? You can always create jobs, the question is if you're actually willing to do it with something like the WPA did or if you're going to provide tax credits to encourage the development or whatever neoliberal bullshit that has proven not to work.
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May 8, 2019 22:41
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those unions did a bad job because all the union underground mines are closing down none left in ky for example
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May 8, 2019 22:41
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jobson groeth posted:What if other jobs took a leaf out of their book and unionised too so that all workers were getting a fair days pay for a fair days work? Then everyone could be happy and reskilling for new jobs wouldn't mean a slow death of your town. I would wager that's only true if you can find those jobs in the same place as their previous jobs, or else they'll have to relocate. I don't see why someone would put a, say, solar panel factory in the same place where a coal mine used to be when they require different inputs. hobbesmaster posted:You can always create jobs, the question is if you're actually willing to do it with something like the WPA did or if you're going to provide tax credits to encourage the development or whatever neoliberal bullshit that has proven not to work. What sort of job retraining did the WPA do to get people working in jobs they previously had no experience in? Did they take people off the street and just give them a shovel and tell them to dig a hole so someone could build a road? Sure, we need plenty of that but that's not going to sustain itself in perpetuity.
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May 8, 2019 22:47
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Wakko posted:this reflects more on you than it does on them my dude they aren't arguing that we should ensure things are just and equitable, they're arguing that there's literally nothing to be done and extinction is the only "solution" bawfuls has issued a correction as of 22:50 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 22:47
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bawfuls posted:their argument begins with "humanity is not worth saving" yeah I mean this is a well-explored avenue of thought long before human extinction became likely there's a variety of ways to wrap up the whole human existence thing that aren't "literally fascism" do you think the voluntary human extinction movement people are also fascists?
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May 8, 2019 22:55
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Trabisnikof posted:those unions did a bad job because all the union underground mines are closing down none left in ky for example nobody is buying coal anymore and coal is only getting more expensive to extract because all the cheap stuff was extracted years ago. those unions did a good job for 50 years at least
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May 8, 2019 22:56
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Addamere posted:is that map distorted or is my mental image of north america distorted from years of looking at wrong maps It's the simulation losing cohesion
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May 8, 2019 23:00
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Moridin920 posted:There's like 40k of them left and I can't imagine that if you gave them a fat pension and a big thank you for your service instead of "gl here's some lovely job training I guess lol" they'd be that angry about it. Many would be extremely angry about that. Lots of Americans define themselves by their work. This is especially true of small insular communities. Even if you provide for their needs, you're going to get a really negative reaction from telling people that they, and their community, and everyone they know, are unnecessary surplus. Thats not even taking into account what would happen to a whole community sentenced to spend all day wallowing in social media and cable news.
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May 8, 2019 23:06
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Wakko posted:yeah I mean this is a well-explored avenue of thought long before human extinction became likely
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May 8, 2019 23:11
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bawfuls posted:no, i think the people posting things like "the problem is people, all people, every single last one, and the only solution is extinction" are functionally no different from fascists They're functionally no different from a youtube of the top ten greatest anime villains
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May 8, 2019 23:13
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bawfuls posted:no, i think the people posting things like "the problem is people, all people, every single last one, and the only solution is extinction" are functionally no different from fascists and I think you’re no different from some gap toothed hick rolling coal in a West Virginian mudfield, it’s all just noise and hot air before what’s inevitable. so we seem to be at an impasse (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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May 8, 2019 23:31
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no ur a fash
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May 8, 2019 23:48
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bawfuls posted:no, i think the people posting things like "the problem is people, all people, every single last one, and the only solution is extinction" are functionally no different from fascists I don't think that's even fascist ideology at all?
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May 8, 2019 23:51
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Oxxidation posted:all of them would be immediately replaced, and their replacements would be replaced too Lol if you think nothing would happen if all these CEOs started getting assassinated We get it it's game over and humans suck gently caress off already you're basically just thread making GBS threads at this point
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May 8, 2019 23:53
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yeah i guess fascists want to dominate some people and elevate others while Oxxidation wants to just burn it all down? not sure that's any better but in the context of climate crisis, both are likely to embrace conflict and destruction so...
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May 8, 2019 23:54
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glad we got your two pages of snitty smarm and smug tone policing though
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May 8, 2019 23:56
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Moridin920 posted:Lol if you think nothing would happen if all these CEOs started getting assassinated something would happen, it's called every remotely left wing activist being jailed or otherwise "found dead of suicide"
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May 9, 2019 00:10
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One More Fat Nerd posted:Many would be extremely angry about that. Lots of Americans define themselves by their work. This is especially true of small insular communities. Even if you provide for their needs, you're going to get a really negative reaction from telling people that they, and their community, and everyone they know, are unnecessary surplus. Yeah this is basically why retired people are all chuds or russiagate libs, not having any sense of structure or purpose in daily life is going to melt basically anyone's brain.
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May 9, 2019 00:11
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Dead Beef posted:Nature's dangerous decline 'unprecedented,' species extinction rates 'accelerating' What a time to be alive
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May 9, 2019 00:56
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Dead Beef posted:Nature's dangerous decline 'unprecedented,' species extinction rates 'accelerating' Eh, won't be a big problem until 2040, I'll be de-- wait, gently caress
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May 9, 2019 01:06
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