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Snazzy Frocks posted:Grand intellectual hulk could have had a multitask snap that reversed time, dusted Thanos, but kept Tony's timeline intact since the stones can do anything Again this is leaving out the trillions of other lives created aside from Tony's daughter. And you can't just keep everyone's post-snap timeline intact because making it so that their loved ones never vanished would logically necessitate altering those timelines.
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May 11, 2019 01:53
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Again this is leaving out the trillions of other lives created aside from Tony's daughter. And you can't just keep everyone's post-snap timeline intact because making it so that their loved ones never vanished would logically necessitate altering those timelines. Stark’s time machine is incredibly primitive compared to the time gem. Where Stark can only create (and allow travel between) alternate universes, the time gem is capable all kind of effects within the same universe - including localized effects. Strange can choose to reverse time only for the dead, so that they rematerialize without affecting anything else.
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May 11, 2019 02:22
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Yeah even thanos brought vision and his mind stone back without reversing anything else
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May 11, 2019 02:39
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brawleh posted:It’s never shown that a divergent timeline of another universe vanishes It is explicitly shown. We see a golden line with stones encircling it. A stone is removed. A dark line emerges. The stone is returned. The dark line evaporates. What does the vanishing of the dark line, replaced by nothing but empty air, mean to you, if it's not my interpretation?
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May 11, 2019 02:43
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Sir Kodiak posted:It is explicitly shown. We see a golden line with stones encircling it. A stone is removed. A dark line emerges. The stone is returned. The dark line evaporates. Timestamped for relevancy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CWd7gn55ec&t=296s Returning the stones to each branch makes sure that particular reality isn't screwed against Dormammu or whoever/whatever else. They're not "dooming" that alternate reality's timeline basically by leaving it absent a stone. Hulk says something to the effect of "return the stones the moment they were taken, or else those alternate realities are hosed."
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May 11, 2019 02:51
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Snazzy Frocks posted:Yeah even thanos brought vision and his mind stone back without reversing anything else But you're talking about undoing the past five years of history entirely but forcing the unsnapped to live out their lives in ways they would not have chosen if the snap didn't happen (finding new lovers, starting new families, etc.) Which seems to be vastly beyond the scope of what the timestone can do, and again would be extremely dubious ethically. And again, violates the rules specified by Bruce that you can't change your own past, you'd just be creating an alternate timeline.
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May 11, 2019 02:54
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They should have showed Thanos destroying the stones.
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May 11, 2019 02:56
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teagone posted:Timestamped for relevancy: That's interesting, in that a universe without the stones being open to attack from other realities jives perfectly with what we've seen from the FFH trailer: our viewpoint reality no longer has infinity stones, so there's nothing to stop travelers from elsewhere in the multiverse from popping by for a visit.
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May 11, 2019 03:02
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Yeah, Hulk just assumes that since Thanos is dead, the primary MCU timeline is fine without the stones. LITTLE DOES HE KNOW. But we'll see.
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May 11, 2019 03:05
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teagone posted:Timestamped for relevancy: This video claims there are precisely four kinds of time travel, none of which include how time travel actually works in Endgame. It walks through them, talking about other movies, something Endgame specifically tells you it is dissimilar from. At no point does he dig into Banner or The Ancient One's explanation of how time travel works. I would be curious to your answer to the question I asked brawleh, which is, of course, not answered by the video: what does the vanishing of the dark line, replaced by nothing but empty air, visually represent? What is the meaning of that image? The one useful thing the video does is illustrate something Endgame specifically does not include. When discussing the notion of branching timelines, he shows us this, a golden rope branching in two:  Which is an image conspicuously missing from The Ancient One's explanation.
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May 11, 2019 03:20
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My interpretation is that you would still have a distinct timeline that would so closely match the original that the "flow" would appear unchanged on the ancient one's powerpoint presentation. So there's a timeline out there where Crossbones and co. think Cap is Hydra, Cap is really confused about this and the events of Winter Soldier play out somewhat differntly, but the stone is still present to prevent a major divergence into some unknown hellworld. Eta: kinda like some of those climate modeling graphs where you can make minor changes to inputs that don't cause a major shift in that line from the norm, but a major change (removing an infinity stone) would cause a significant divergence. Mazzagatti2Hotty fucked around with this message at 03:38 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 03:32
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So, to your mind, a branch evaporating into air is communicating a redirection back into two overlapping lines. What an interesting way to convey that. Is there anything in the movie to support this? Like, some event or image that I'm not taking into account that you are?
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May 11, 2019 03:35
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:stole an inexplicably spaceflight-capable fighter jet to go work as a space gladiator. The space capability of the quin jet was explained in Captain Marvel. The experimental prototype was upgraded by the Skrull science guy.
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May 11, 2019 03:38
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Well I mean it's open to interpretation. We're not really given the scale she's using in her powerpoint. Is it a year? A thousand? A million? The bigger the scale, the less likely you would be able to notice minor differences. The evaporation is of a potential future for hellworld timeline that will happen if the stones are not returned. If they are, then that timeline course corrects and essentially becomes indistinguishable from the main timeline on her graphic.
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May 11, 2019 03:47
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https://twitter.com/ign/status/1127038632374808576?s=21
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May 11, 2019 03:47
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Snazzy Frocks posted:was the aether even supposed to be the reality stone or they just conveniently made it so later on The aether itself is just a sort of cosmic container. The stones were too strong to be used by most folks in a focused way so each at some point had a container made for it long ago to allow a regular person to kinda sorta handle it and that's been consistent across them. The aether is what the reality gem was contained in, the orb, the tesseract, eye of agamotto, etc. aren't the gems themselves but the container with the gem in it. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 03:55 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 03:52
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Well I mean it's open to interpretation. We're not really given the scale she's using in her powerpoint. Is it a year? A thousand? A million? The bigger the scale, the less likely you would be able to notice minor differences. The natural way to illustrate this would be to show the timeline bending or reabsorbing into the original. If you're going to say that the central image used to explain something is wrong, there should be something in the movie you can point to. The image of something vanishing from existence is very much not associated, in the Infinity Stone saga, with peaceful reintegration. And the notion that things smooth out over time would seem in direct contradiction with the whole chaos theory / butterfly effect thing that usually dominates branching-timeline stories. Which, again, makes me curious what in the movie is communicating this to you.
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May 11, 2019 03:54
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Keep in mind that we don't know precisely when hellworld branch begins. It is a potential future for a timeline in which the stone is not present when an existential threat such as Dormamu invades the reality. The black line may branch off from the moment of Dormamu's arrival. In this case, returning the stone to within moments after using it would prevent the black line from forming in the first place, thus the evaporation. Also keep in mind that the Ancient One is a representative of the Alternate Timelines, and only sees a future without the stones as a cataclysmic one. She would presumably take issue with Bruce's plan if it would also doom her timeline by erasing it from existence. Instead, she is satisfied with the future of her timeline by the knowledge that the stones would be returned.
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May 11, 2019 04:11
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Kodiak is right, by the way. Things are extremely poorly explained, but we’re shown that the “time machine” actually creates temporary copy universes. You can enter the universe at any point in time and, once you leave, that universe ceases to exist. However: removing a gem causes the temporary universe to persist until the gem is returned. Implicitly - though this is not explained at all - the “time machine” allows you to return to any point in a persistent universe, so long as it is after the point that you left that universe. This is how Steve is able to age 70 years near-instantaneously: no matter how long he was gone, he could choose to return at any point after he disappeared. This also means that Steve erased all the life that has ever existed - and that will ever exist - from multiple universes. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:27 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 04:23
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Neo Rasa posted:The aether itself is just a sort of cosmic container. The stones were too strong to be used by most folks in a focused way so each at some point had a container made for it long ago to allow a regular person to kinda sorta handle it and that's been consistent across them. The aether is what the reality gem was contained in, the orb, the tesseract, eye of agamotto, etc. aren't the gems themselves but the container with the gem in it. As far as I can tell the power stone is the only dangerous one to handle. Fuckin Hawkeye was holding the soul stone in his bare hand after all
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May 11, 2019 04:37
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Charlz Guybon posted:Civil war was personal, he was talking about Ultron. Though the failure of that program wasn't exactly due to Cap's opposition. In that case I'm even more confused because I just don't see how even a properly functioning Ultron makes a difference with regard to Thanos, I'd think it would be stomped like everything else. My problem with that line from Stark isn't so much he said it as the fact that nobody bothers to counter argue. We could argue that they understand he's acting out and are choosing to ignore it, but to me it comes across more as people ignoring their racist uncle popping off again. These films (Infinity War and Endgame) are odd too, in that they link Thanos and Iron Man, what with both of them warning of dangers to their worlds and being ignored, leading to disaster. They then have to fix things themselves using magic rocks. You'll notice that Thanos, Hulk and Stark are the only ones to use all six gems and Thanos and Stark use them in identical ways. I find this whole thing off-putting because the arc for Iron Man over a few films is him being scared about the end of the world and thinking it all falls on him to prevent. It's just plain weird that the films seem to agree that not only is the world in danger (it's always in danger, these are superhero films!), but agree that it is all on Tony. His mania about fixing things, to me at least, seemed like something he would have to learn to let go, as in learn that he is not the center of the universe and not liable for fixing everything. I would have thought his arc was about realizing this and letting go a bit. But instead it is all on him to solve and not only that, the comfort his wife gives him is telling him "You did it, you can rest now", like everyone agrees that the world depends on some rear end in a top hat billionaire arms dealer. Gross.
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May 11, 2019 05:15
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Sir Kodiak posted:It is explicitly shown. We see a golden line with stones encircling it. A stone is removed. A dark line emerges. The stone is returned. The dark line evaporates. Right, the main flow of time they’re talking about with that diagram is her own in “dooming one reality to save another”. If the stones aren’t there/returned this doomed branch emerges, though if returned like they’ve never been gone that branch never emerged to begin with. The flow of time and reality she’s concerned with just kept on going. Swinton’s fear of a branching timeline only emerges if there's no longer a stone from the moment it's taken, this doesn’t doom the main flow of time she’s talking about where the stones are in place.
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May 11, 2019 05:27
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garycoleisgod posted:. I see where you're coming from on the rest of this post, but cmon, the dude realized the error of his ways and gave up arms dealing 9 films ago. Of course his wife is going to tell him he done good at this point. Not only does she intend to comfort him in his dying moments, he literally died saving the entire universe from destruction. On the scales of karmic balance I think it's safe to move him to "reformed arms dealer" at the very least.
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May 11, 2019 05:47
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Kodiak is right, by the way. The crimes of captain america are really starting to pile up
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May 11, 2019 06:11
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Finally saw this, I thought it was a great capstone to the entire MCU thus far but I feel like having Far From Home come out so closely after it is going to cheapen that feeling. Admittedly I was kind of lukewarm throughout the beginning of Endgame but the longer it went the more I got into it, which seems like a good thing for a three-hour movie to do.NotJustANumber99 posted:Presumably some nerd somewhere will eventually whittle down all the movies to just a pick'n'mix of scenes that matter and upload it as a 6 hour (?how long?) cut on illegal youtubes as 'Marvel's Avengers: The story of the stones' or whatever. gently caress that give me the ultra-long cut that puts all of the scenes of these last 22 movies in chronological order (not counting the time-jumping in Endgame). I guess it would be largely in release order other than Cap 1 and Captain Marvel, and then other scenes chopped and screwed into order like the opening of Black Panther in LA or the opening of Homecoming with the guys excavating underneath Stark Tower.
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May 11, 2019 06:18
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C-Euro posted:Finally saw this, I thought it was a great capstone to the entire MCU thus far but I feel like having Far From Home come out so closely after it is going to cheapen that feeling. Admittedly I was kind of lukewarm throughout the beginning of Endgame but the longer it went the more I got into it, which seems like a good thing for a three-hour movie to do. Why go half-assed. Throw in the time travel scenes without any context.
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May 11, 2019 06:21
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ImpAtom posted:Why go half-assed. Throw in the time travel scenes without any context. Part of me is with you on that but part of me also thinks that putting the time travel stuff in there without explanation would just be needlessly confusing, since almost all of the time jumps put them in the middle of important ongoing scenes. Plus having Thanos tipped off to their plan around the start of Guardians 1, and suddenly going "I'll do it myself" at the end of Ultron would be weird. I like where your head's at though. Also a friend of mine posted a mock-up of a Blu-ray box set of all the MCU movies to date, is that actually happening? Because yikes that's a big box.
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May 11, 2019 06:42
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I'm really not sure why you guys think a universe stops existing just because a person leaves it.
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May 11, 2019 13:25
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C-Euro posted:
Only if you do actually count the time jumping. Reminds me of someone once in another thread who wanted to put the whole of the Doctor Who revival in chronological order. I think if every grain of sand on Earth was actually a piece of a jigsaw, putting it together would be less time consuming than that crazy fuckers idea.
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May 11, 2019 14:20
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Steve does counter that line with 'well that didn't work out, did it'. It's a simple response but reminding people that Tony's plan almost lead to a mass extinction event will be enough to settle the argument for most people.
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May 11, 2019 14:20
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Dietrich posted:I'm really not sure why you guys think a universe stops existing just because a person leaves it. That’s simply what they show in the movie. The copy universes only exist as long as they’re observed or something. Quantum technobabble, “collapsing the waveform”, whatever. That’s the plot. The science is made up. (And, ironically, it’s very close to how Back To The Future works.) However, the storytelling logic is that these alternate universes are ‘supposed to’ function like dream sequences. These aren’t real universes (to Steve) so it doesn’t matter (to him) if he fucks things up so that Loki successfully takes over the Earth and Thanos wins. Once he leaves, that universe is erased so it doesn’t matter anyways. It doesn’t matter to Steve that, while he’s married to Peggy B, his clone is in the ice. And doesn’t matter if he steals his clone’s shield. It’s all just a dream - they’re not real to him. Overall, it’s an attempt by the filmmakers to remove unpleasant consequences from the time travel. But, of course, this attempt didn’t work - they didn’t really think things through. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 14:24 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 14:20
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The Loki thing is literally a mid movie advertisement for an upcoming TV show.
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May 11, 2019 14:27
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Thing is though, there’s something there within the text that can be referenced in relation to the universe persisting after the 'main' characters leave. And yeah it’s that Hawkeye test jump, where there’s no stone shenanigans so they’re simply in that universe. Where Hawkeye then vanishes but the camera keeps going, that universe persists with the kid looking for her dad, but Hawkeye's not there anymore
brawleh fucked around with this message at 14:38 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 14:30
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The Loki thing is literally a mid movie advertisement for an upcoming TV show. brawleh posted:Thing is though, there’s something there within the text that can be referenced in relation to the universe persisting after the 'main' characters leave. And yeah it’s that Hawkeye test jump, where there’s no stone shenanigans so they’re simply in that universe. Where Hawkeye then vanishes but the camera keeps going, that universe persists with the kid looking for her dad, but no one's there anymore. Right, there’s a huge gulf between the characters’ behaviours. Steve acts as though the other universes aren’t real, but they’re still real to their inhabitants, like Loki or the girl. Is Tilda Swinton lying about the timeline thing in order to get her stone back? Probably.
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May 11, 2019 14:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Right, there’s a huge gulf between the characters’ behaviours. Steve acts as though the other universes aren’t real, but they’re still real to their inhabitants, like Loki or the girl. Yeah, I agree with you that they’re very much so real, but there's no reason to believe that the consequence of Steve's actions are lessened in any way because an alternate universe persists based upon what's there - if anything it's a lot worse. The events just keep unfolding, so there's always another snap and no potential end to this nightmare. Like, I don't think Swinton's lying about the stone, her fear is very real - she only gives it up because Strange is mentioned. There's an idea here where two states exist in relation to that diagram of her timeline since the stone was taken. Where the doomed timeline/universe is collapsed so her 'uninterrupted' flow of time and reality can continue; where again the heroes agree with the old Thanos and things are ‘balanced’ out in the end. brawleh fucked around with this message at 15:14 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 15:11
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CityMidnightJunky posted:Only if you do actually count the time jumping. Reminds me of someone once in another thread who wanted to put the whole of the Doctor Who revival in chronological order. I think if every grain of sand on Earth was actually a piece of a jigsaw, putting it together would be less time consuming than that crazy fuckers idea. We can do two versions of the cut  I think it would work better if we got to see Steve returning all of the Stones at the end of Endgame but I can see why they left it out of the actual theatrical release. Although I have to admit, the shot of everyone going back in time as Widow says "see you in a minute" and then popping back into existence a moment later after all of the time-jumping would have been sick.
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May 11, 2019 15:12
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The Ancient One thinks if she give the time stone to Bruce, her timeline will be doomed because Dr Strange can't defeat Dormammu without it. Once the time stone is returned, it is no longer doomed because Dr Strange will be able to use the time stone when he needs to. The universe continues on, but is still changed due to Loki getting the Tesseract, Shield thinking Cap is in Hydra, etc. The universe doesn't disappear. It's literally just Dragon Ball Z time travel.
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May 11, 2019 15:27
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Dietrich posted:I'm really not sure why you guys think a universe stops existing just because a person leaves it. For the same reason Cap is a time-rapist, it's the most uncharitable reading possible.
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May 11, 2019 15:35
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DrNutt posted:Kinda think seeing the basis for the Cap/Peggy relationship would be good enough reason for watching Cap 1, also Hayley Atwell is fantastic. Also Cap 1 has the grenade scene, probably the best scene in the whole MCU: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bW-pxp_U9k
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May 11, 2019 15:52
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:For the same reason Cap is a time-rapist, it's the most uncharitable reading possible. Around when Avengers 1 came out, I pointed out that these s.h.e.i.l.d. guys are blatantly evil, doing torture and global wiretapping with no accountability. It’s not clear if they’re an American or international organization, and even their name is this indecipherable mix of buzzwords. The response from fans was to stop overthinking it; s.h.e.i.l.d. Is just doing what’s necessary to eliminate the evil aliens who aren’t even people. They’re just humanoid objects and we can do what we want to them. Would you just let Loki take over? You’re either with us or against us, etc. Two films later, surprise, they’re literally Nazis. I am not a charity.
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May 11, 2019 16:01
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