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Speaking of: while everyone agrees that Cap is an omnicidal time rapist, I don't see why we are giving Tony a pass in that regard? In a deterministic universre, Tony crossing the vast distance between where he was stranded and Earth in a matter of days would necessitate moving at FTL speed, which is functionally time travel. While it would be natural to expect that someone would have explained this to Pepper at some point, we were never shown this on screen, so we must assume that she was not aware of his time-traveling. Ergo, Tony raped Pepper by hiding this information from her. This sadly offers an explanation of why Pepper is so aloof around Morgan through much of the film. Remember, before the film's denouement we are never shown any interaction between the two characters, so once again we can only assume it never happens. The trauma of her time-rape is so great that it ruins the relationship between mother and daughter, resulting in Morgan only loving Pepper 1/5th to 1/6th as much as Tony. And before you say "but Tony only time-travelled a comparatively small amount!", stfiu. I don't care if he only travelled .05% as much as Cap, time-rape is time-rape and it's real hosed-up for you to minimize Pepper's experience like that. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 11, 2019 16:05
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Snazzy Frocks posted:As far as I can tell the power stone is the only dangerous one to handle. Fuckin Hawkeye was holding the soul stone in his bare hand after all Yeah but you have to murder a loved one in order to hold it so that's still pretty dangerous.
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May 11, 2019 16:24
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Speaking of: while everyone agrees that Cap is an omnicidal time rapist, I don't see why we are giving Tony a pass in that regard? You are bizarrely unwilling or unable to distinguish between all time travel ever and what specifically happens in the film. You yourself are travelling through time right now (whoa, wow) but you are not travelling into an alternate universe. The machine in Endgame does not really allow for time travel - or, rather, that’s not its primary function (Steve suddenly aging 70 years, from Bucky’s perspective, is a side-effect). The machine more accurately creates (and allows travel between) locations. The heroes are time-colonists blithely extracting resources from these “subordinate” foreign lands, largely indifferent to any impact they might have on the inhabitants. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 17:40 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 17:28
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*alarm noises * Pull up! Pull up! Now they’re time colonizers. This is getting more and more ridiculous. It’s explicitly shown they’re hopping into and back with an attempt at the most minimal of interactions with the alternate timelines. They gently caress up because there’d be no story to tell otherwise but it’s done with the intention to not have any affect at all on the alt worlds.
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May 11, 2019 17:45
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Keep in mind that we don't know precisely when hellworld branch begins. It is a potential future for a timeline in which the stone is not present when an existential threat such as Dormamu invades the reality. The black line may branch off from the moment of Dormamu's arrival. In this case, returning the stone to within moments after using it would prevent the black line from forming in the first place, thus the evaporation. brawleh posted:Right, the main flow of time they’re talking about with that diagram is her own in “dooming one reality to save another”. If the stones aren’t there/returned this doomed branch emerges, though if returned like they’ve never been gone that branch never emerged to begin with. The flow of time and reality she’s concerned with just kept on going. This seems like a weird version of branching timelines and I remain curious how you determined that it's how the movie works. In general, with sci-fi stories that use branching timelines, each trip back creates a new timeline from the point at which the time traveller arrives. Cap et al. show up in the past, that's a new timeline, differing based on all the things they do in the past, like take an infinity stone. In these sorts of stories, normally if Cap shows up in the past again, that's yet another new timeline, different based on all the things he does in the past, like replace an infinity stone. Each trip would be a new timeline, so you'd end up with three: prime and the two branches from the two trips. Instead, you're proposing that there's two different kinds of trips into the past. In one kind of trip, you create a new timeline with your actions: Cap takes the stone, a new future is created, trillions of lives butterfly-effecting in a new direction. In another kind of trip, you merely change an existing alternate timeline: Cap returns the stone, the future in which there's no stone vanishes, and instead a new future for that timeline is created butterfly-effecting based on everything that happened in the time-travel trips except for the removal of the stone. So, in your theory, you can't change the past of the prime timeline, but you can change the past of branching timelines that you created on a previous trip. First, this means we agree on something: when Captain America travels back to the past the second time to replace a stone, he is erasing a timeline. Because an infinity stone was taken, a dark timeline was created. We both agree that timeline, with all those trillions of lives playing out differently than in the prime timeline, is erased. Where we disagree is on what happens after that. I say, based on seeing a visual illustration of a timeline being erased and replaced by nothing, that the timeline is erased and replaced by nothing. You're saying that, yes, a timeline is erased, but also a new one is created in its place that incorporates all the mucking about in the past except for the removal of the infinity stone. So you're proposing an unusual and specific form of time-travel. And, hey, it's sci-fi/fantasy. Anything can happen. But you'd think, for you to be able to say that's how it works, there'd be something specific in the movie to point to. I'm pointing to a visual diagram created by a literal time wizard. You've stated that, well, maybe the new timeline is so similar to the old one that it isn't visually distinguishable in the diagram, that it's there but imperceptible to the viewer. This seems like a nonsense way to approach visual communication in film to me, but even if we accepted that, that's still not affirmative evidence for your version of events. That's just arguing that I haven't disproven your theory. But given my theory is the more direction interpretation of the actual diagram, for your argument to be convincing there should be something affirmative in the film that actually establishes what you're saying happens is what happens. I'd like to know what that is. Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:For the same reason Cap is a time-rapist, it's the most uncharitable reading possible. Keep in mind, you're saying what happens is that Iron Man and Captain America sprang Loki from prison, gave him the Tesseract, set him free in the universe with it, and then don't have even a single conversation about what they've just done outside the implications on their heist. They certainly aren't treating that as a real thing that happened that will have consequences for an entire new universe that they just created. They act like the only future that's real is the prime timeline. My suggestion is that, since they're the experts in this stuff, they're right. Certainly, to say they're wrong, you'd want to have something to point to in the movie itself.
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May 11, 2019 18:18
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Sir Kodiak posted:Keep in mind, you're saying what happens is that Iron Man and Captain America sprang Loki from prison, gave him the Tesseract, set him free in the universe with it, and then don't have even a single conversation about what they've just done outside the implications on their heist. Gotta watch the webisodes, if they discussed it it would be spoilers.
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May 11, 2019 18:21
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Maybe when there's talk of 'creating' a new timeline they mean that any meaningful interaction with said timeline on the part of the time traveler creates an ontologically distinct reality since we may assume in a deterministic cosmos every timeline otherwise plays out exactly the same way (which does raise the question of why/how the Prime universe isn't itself subject to identical meddling from another timeline).
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May 11, 2019 19:02
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TK-42-1 posted:Now they’re time colonizers. This is getting more and more ridiculous. It’s explicitly shown they’re hopping into and back with an attempt at the most minimal of interactions with the alternate timelines. They gently caress up because there’d be no story to tell otherwise but it’s done with the intention to not have any affect at all on the alt worlds. Right, so they go to the alternate worlds and extract their resources in a ‘green’, ‘ethical’ way. And, despite their green intentions, the extraction of the resources massively fucks up and possibly even obliterates those worlds. We’re just accurately describing the plot here.
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May 11, 2019 19:15
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Around when Avengers 1 came out, I pointed out that these s.h.e.i.l.d. guys are blatantly evil, doing torture and global wiretapping with no accountability. It’s not clear if they’re an American or international organization, and even their name is this indecipherable mix of buzzwords. Avengers 29: time cap fucks a kid is already being written, you think?
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May 11, 2019 19:24
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They are traveling to a different parallel universe which happens to be identical to ours but at whatever time they're looking for. It was there before they came, it will be there after they leave. The point Tilda Swinton was making is that if you take a infinity stone out of a universe it will be doomed. She explicitly did not say this universe doesn't really exist and will disappear when you leave, in fact her concerns were entirely rooted in the continued existence of her parallel universe and the requirement that the infinity stone be present in that universe for that to work.
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May 11, 2019 19:25
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Dietrich posted:They are traveling to a different parallel universe which happens to be identical to ours but at whatever time they're looking for. It was there before they came, it will be there after they leave. What in the movie communicated this conclusion to you?
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May 11, 2019 19:37
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Sir Kodiak posted:What in the movie communicated this conclusion to you? The words spoken by the character.
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May 11, 2019 19:39
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Sir Kodiak posted:What in the movie communicated this conclusion to you? The Ancient saying "my reality will be hosed without the time stone" I think. Something to that effect.
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May 11, 2019 19:39
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teagone posted:The Ancient saying "my reality will be hosed without the time stone" I think. Something to that effect. The text of the movie, read as one might read a book that is open before one.
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May 11, 2019 19:41
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sebmojo posted:The text of the movie, read as one might read a book that is open before one. Also I kinda paid attention to the movie, which helped.
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May 11, 2019 19:51
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Sir Kodiak posted:First, this means we agree on something: when Captain America travels back to the past the second time to replace a stone, he is erasing a timeline. Because an infinity stone was taken, a dark timeline was created. We both agree that timeline, with all those trillions of lives playing out differently than in the prime timeline, is erased. Where we disagree is on what happens after that. I say, based on seeing a visual illustration of a timeline being erased and replaced by nothing, that the timeline is erased and replaced by nothing. You're saying that, yes, a timeline is erased, but also a new one is created in its place that incorporates all the mucking about in the past except for the removal of the infinity stone. Yes, in my mind the "dark branch" on the graphic has not been created yet and will not be created if the stones are returned sufficiently close to the time they were taken. I certainly agree that the film doesn't spell out precisely how all this works, and I'm not saying your interpretation is invalid. We can agree to disagree on what side we fall on the question of what happens to the alternate timelines. quote:Keep in mind, you're saying what happens is that Iron Man and Captain America sprang Loki from prison, gave him the Tesseract, set him free in the universe with it, and then don't have even a single conversation about what they've just done outside the implications on their heist. They certainly aren't treating that as a real thing that happened that will have consequences for an entire new universe that they just created. They act like the only future that's real is the prime timeline. My suggestion is that, since they're the experts in this stuff, they're right. Certainly, to say they're wrong, you'd want to have something to point to in the movie itself. I maintain that they do feel their changes have a lasting impact, else they wouldn't care to return the stones at all. The film simply doesn't focus on the impacts of the non-stone related hijinks, leaving them open to interpretation. On the subject of Loki, I'm pretty confident that was included as a jumping off point for his spin-off series. If that turns out to be the case, it will be definitive in-universe proof that the Alternate Timelines indeed persist.
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May 11, 2019 19:57
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I wish they had spent another hour exploring the possible implications of the Copenhagen interpretation, particularly its effect on free will and the soul. Are any of the characters in the mcu even meaningfully real? Are we? Are we all just lights on a screen, viewed from a higher dimension?
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May 11, 2019 20:06
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sebmojo posted:I wish they had spent another hour exploring the possible implications of the Copenhagen interpretation, particularly its effect on free will and the soul. Are any of the characters in the mcu even meaningfully real? Are we? Are we all just lights on a screen, viewed from a higher dimension? We're a doomed timeline OP
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May 11, 2019 20:12
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sebmojo posted:The words spoken by the character. Which specific words communicate this: "They are traveling to a different parallel universe which happens to be identical to ours but at whatever time they're looking for." If there's actual dialog for that, that would be pretty illuminating. Because this doesn't say any of that poo poo: teagone posted:The Ancient saying "my reality will be hosed without the time stone" I think. Something to that effect. Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:I maintain that they do feel their changes have a lasting impact, else they wouldn't care to return the stones at all. The film simply doesn't focus on the impacts of the non-stone related hijinks, leaving them open to interpretation. They feel their changes have a lasting impact because they're specifically told that removing a stone has a lasting impact. The only lasting impact they ever discuss is removing stones. This would seem consistent with the idea that removing a stone is the only thing that can make a lasting impact.
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May 11, 2019 20:17
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In the grim, dark future of the 22nd Century, all things philosophical and metaphysical will be discussed through the lens of an Avengers movie. Are you from the School of Stark or the School of Rogers? What does the Romanoff Sacrifice mean to you?
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May 11, 2019 20:19
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The Romanoff Play, The Stark Gambit
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May 11, 2019 20:27
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Sir Kodiak posted:That's just arguing that I haven't disproven your theory. But given my theory is the more direction interpretation of the actual diagram, for your argument to be convincing there should be something affirmative in the film that actually establishes what you're saying happens is what happens. I'd like to know what that is. Kodiak, i’m 100% there with that reading of a universe collapsing once it’s left or no longer observed; If that Hawkeye test jump into an alternate reality didn’t exist within the movie, which conveys the alternate reality persisting without Hawkeye present. In reference to the rooftop exchange, can only speak to how i’m working through the reading of the movie here and that main flow of time in Swinton’s reality that she’s worried about. Once the stone is taken, two theoricial timelines exist based upon that reality, so to speak. However within the narrative of the movie, only one is ever be observed - the one with the stone returned. Maybe that’s a clumsy use of Schrodinger's cat in context, but it’s the best way I can explain it. Theoretically that doomed timeline does exist, but the moment the stone is taken is simultaneously the moment it’s returned, this collapses that doomed branch like it never existed. So what’s left and continues on is that main flow Swinton was concerned about, the reality she was concerned about - which isn’t professor Hulk's. If you’re asking why they’re alternate realities / alternate universe, it’s why any doppelgangers are simply different people; Where events from history take place based upon, like, where Hulk came from. The exchange between Swinton and Hulk takes place during the attack on New York, while there's another Hulk going around killing Chitauri. Also, since younger past versions of the characters simply vanish or are killed and this has no impact upon that ‘prime’ realities history - The younger Nebula is killed while the older Nebula is still alive, the snap still happened though Thanos disappears in 2014 etc. Like, it’s not simply time travel, the quantum stuff lands people into alternate realities / universes and timelines - different places all together. The history of these places are seemingly based upon the ‘invading’ point of origin. Like, the universe that almost certainly(though not necessarily) ends up in another snap is that test jump one, with all the mess that follows.
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May 11, 2019 20:47
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I'm really goddamn exhausted by people who think the actual logistics of time travel matter at all here. It's basically just the same tired discussion about "plot holes" (which are equally stupid and meaningless) dressed up a little fancier.
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May 11, 2019 20:57
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brawleh posted:Kodiak, i’m 100% there with that reading of a universe collapsing once it’s left or no longer observed; If that Hawkeye test jump into an alternate reality didn’t exist within the movie, which conveys the alternate reality persisting without Hawkeye present. That's a fair point and I meant to address it earlier, so I'm glad you brought it up again. And I appreciate you're point to something specific in the movie. But to address that scene, to me it's relevant that whenever people in Endgame travel through time there is a notable transit period through the quantum realm. We see them flying around in their little suits. We also see that the machine only shuts down once the people have returned, that's it's still operating while they're in transit. The amount of time that we see that universe persist is a few seconds. The amount of time we see the transit taking place is a few seconds. So, the amount of time we see the universe persisting after Hawkeye leaves is about the same amount of time we see the machine continuing to operate after he leaves. This suggests to me an entirely reasonable alternate explanation for that scene: the temporary universe created by the time machine doesn't vanish until the machine shuts down (unless, as The Ancient One tells us, an infinity stone is removed, in which case that breaks reality and creates a degenerate timeline). To me, that leaves things with that scene sufficiently open to multiple possibilities that it doesn't override direct exposition, including a primer.png-style diagram floating in the air, from a literal time wizard. brawleh posted:In reference to the rooftop exchange, can only speak to how i’m working through the reading of the movie here and that main flow of time in Swinton’s reality that she’s worried about. Once the stone is taken, two theoricial timelines exist based upon that reality, so to speak. However within the narrative of the movie, only one is ever be observed - the one with the stone returned. Maybe that’s a clumsy use of Schrodinger's cat in context, but it’s the best way I can explain it. This just ends up seeming like a lot of additional unnecessary detail that isn't motivated by anything in the movie except a few seconds of footage that are just as easily explained by the simpler description of things provided by Tilda Swinton. I, of course, can't prove that an infinite number of things aren't happening off-camera that we never see, but I just can't get away from the idea that if we're given simple exposition as to how things work, and everything is consistent with that, we should assume the exposition is correct. There's no need to overcomplicate things with additional assumptions. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 21:06 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 21:00
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sebmojo posted:Avengers 29: time cap fucks a kid is already being written, you think? Didn't Steve hook up with Peggy's granddaughter already?
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May 11, 2019 21:11
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Sir Kodiak posted:This just ends up seeming like a lot of additional unnecessary detail that isn't motivated by anything in the movie except a few seconds of footage that are just as easily explained by the simpler description of things provided by Tilda Swinton. I, of course, can't prove that an infinite number of things aren't happening off-camera that we never see, but I just can't get away from the idea that if we're given simple exposition as to how things work, and everything is consistent with that, we should assume the exposition is correct. There's no need to overcomplicate things with additional assumptions. That exposition is about her reality though, where if the stone is taken it potentially branches off into a doomed outcome - within context of the rest of the movie. I can't shake that we're always looking at two different people if two seemingly identical people are within a scene and this being something that's shown in various ways over and over. Also due to that Hawkeye scene, I don't think i'll ever read it as these people no longer exist just because Steve isn't around anymore - for me it kills the idea that they're within a temporary universe. Though I do accept there's theoretically(?) an unobserved doomed branch of Swinton's flow of time that’s collapsed. This isn't trying to over complicate things, it's just working through that exposition as simply another part of how the movie conveys that ‘time travel’ element of the narrative. Like, the most straightforward reading of that Hawkeye test jump, based upon what's there, is simply of that reality persisting. When they jump, time simply carries on within the present they vanished from. Though hours, days and even years pass in another universe when reached via the quantum realm, only a few seconds pass in the present reality they just left. Think of the ending, Hulk says Steve should be gone for, like, five seconds or whatever. As for the destination, it's simply a moment in time that can always be simultaneously reached and this is something that’s explicitly part of that exposition on the rooftop. brawleh fucked around with this message at 17:55 on May 12, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 21:39
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ruddiger posted:Didn't Steve hook up with Peggy's granddaughter already? niece or great niece. still weird
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May 11, 2019 21:57
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Xpost from the MST3K threadZazz Razzamatazz posted:Thanos: The "Hands" of Fate
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May 11, 2019 23:33
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Arist posted:I'm really goddamn exhausted by people who think the actual logistics of time travel matter at all here. It's basically just the same tired discussion about "plot holes" (which are equally stupid and meaningless) dressed up a little fancier. There’s not really any such thing as a plot hole. Asking these questions is like asking where Stark gets his resources from, and/or whether he still sells weapons. The metal for Stark’s suits had to have been dug out of the ground by workers who are obviously paid only a tiny fraction of what he is. The design of the power source was stolen from Ivan Vanko’s father. The suits are co-piloted by the (evidently fully conscious, enslaved) AIs Jarvis and Friday. Stark Industries quietly resumed selling weapons sometime after Avengers 1. So there’s no plot hole there. These are just things fans would prefer to ignore. Put simply, you are attempting to create plot holes in an effort to prevent people from interpreting the film. Why is that?
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May 12, 2019 01:47
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Brother Entropy posted:IW/endgame being the homestuck of superhero movies makes a worrying amount of sense. too many characters, confusing time travel rules, everyone is very quippy, a real 'you had to be there for the whole ride' factor lol holy poo poo
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May 12, 2019 01:50
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What’s this whole Captain America: time rapist thing that passed without comment? I missed that part.
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May 12, 2019 01:55
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Applewhite posted:What’s this whole Captain America: time rapist thing that passed without comment? I missed that part. Look, I'm not trying to be a dick here since I can understand the question, but can we not go any further into this? People are calling Captain America a rapist because they're doing edgy alternate interpretations, it's lovely and gross and multiple people have been probed for it and even if you're into alternate readings of film it's not really fun to read people arguing about rape for 20 pages. Let's just leave it there please?
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May 12, 2019 01:57
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Applewhite posted:What’s this whole Captain America: time rapist thing that passed without comment? I missed that part. Smg found a line he's not allowed to cross 
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May 12, 2019 02:04
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Applewhite posted:What’s this whole Captain America: time rapist thing that passed without comment? I missed that part. Steve Rogers takes the place of an alternate universe Steve Rogers and marries the alternate universe Peggy depending on what our universe's Steve Rogers did or did not tell that universe's Peggy this could be seen as rape-by-deception, because he is not her Steve and she is not his Peggy e: note that i'm not saying that i agree with this idea, just explaining it
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May 12, 2019 02:05
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Applewhite posted:What’s this whole Captain America: time rapist thing that passed without comment? I missed that part. Oh that's easy: SMG is hopelessly addicted to Internet feedback.
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May 12, 2019 02:11
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sebmojo posted:Smg found a line he's not allowed to cross Add it to the list along with Sonic's love for chili dogs.
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May 12, 2019 02:25
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There’s not really any such thing as a plot hole. Wow, it's a real honor that through my post I've created something of my own for you to deliberately misintepret in the most pointlessly disingenuous method possible. Which is to say, what did that have to do with my point?
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May 12, 2019 02:34
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It’s forbidden to speak of What Steve Did. But we are allowed to write about other movies. In the movie Live Die Repeat, Emily Blunt stops to have a lunch with Tom Cruise, who is a time traveller. Cruise lays on the charm and Blunt finds herself falling for him. But Cruise slips up, fumbles his rehearsed lines, and Blunt realizes to her horror that this seduction has occurred possibly hundreds of times, and she is just the latest in a line of Blunt clones whose consent Cruise has effectively bypassed. Her entire reality has been manufactured by Cruise for his gratification, and that’s bad.
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May 12, 2019 03:35
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Tilda Swinton posted:In this new branched reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be over run. Millions will suffer. So, tell me Doctor, can your science prevent all that?
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May 12, 2019 03:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It’s forbidden to speak of What Steve Did. And even then, he's largely doing it because every other scenario results in her immediate death. Man, it's a really good movie with an ending from a slightly worse movie.
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May 12, 2019 03:55
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