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maybe but who's going to press the claim?
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Jun 19, 2019 22:50
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Dalael posted:To the question: Who are the true successors to the Romans. The only true successor of the Roman Empire is the Duchy of Grand Fenwick.
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Jun 19, 2019 22:56
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there is no successor, the throne has been vacant since the last emperor left power
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Jun 19, 2019 23:00
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I have another question, this one being kinda dumb. Why is the roof of the Pantheon open the way it is? What happened/happens when it rains? The floor just floods?
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Jun 19, 2019 23:15
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It's open to let in the light, there aren't any windows. When it rains it gets wet inside. There are drains to take care of it.
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Jun 19, 2019 23:31
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Dalael posted:I have another question, this one being kinda dumb. Why is the roof of the Pantheon open the way it is? What happened/happens when it rains? The floor just floods? It's been hypothesized that the circle of sunlight is designed to illuminate specific spots in the interior on particular days (particularly solstices and equinoxes), making it a sort of ocular calendar/sundial. It would illuminate the doorway at noon on the anniversary of Rome's founding, April 21, which would presumably be the moment the Emperor would enter. See: https://www.history.com/news/is-romes-pantheon-a-giant-sundial No one knows for sure just what the purpose of it was, though.
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Jun 19, 2019 23:32
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Dalmuti posted:maybe but who's going to press the claim? It’s a pretty weak claim so it can’t be pressed unless there’s a civil war, a regency, or a woman’s holding the title.
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Jun 20, 2019 06:05
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looms into the thread Orthodoxly
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Jun 20, 2019 06:10
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:there is no successor, the throne has been vacant since the last emperor left power dang sedevacantists
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Jun 20, 2019 07:07
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The only legitimate ways to ascend to the purple are to be declared emperor by your troops and win a civil war, or to be co-emperor with your predecessor during his lifetime. As the latter is impossible, the only way we're getting a new roman emperor is if turkish troops start caring about 600 year old titles
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Jun 20, 2019 07:10
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cheetah7071 posted:The only legitimate ways to ascend to the purple are to be declared emperor by your troops and win a civil war, or to be co-emperor with your predecessor during his lifetime. As the latter is impossible, the only way we're getting a new roman emperor is if turkish troops start caring about 600 year old titles Don't give Erdogan any ideas.
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Jun 20, 2019 07:15
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Supposedly there are descendants of the Palaiologos in northwest Italy still.
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Jun 20, 2019 07:18
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Grand Fromage posted:Supposedly there are descendants of the Palaiologos in northwest Italy still. my novel is going to be about one of them becoming an archeologist and digging up the remains of the magic purple room so she can give birth in it to designate the next emperor
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Jun 20, 2019 07:34
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Grand Fromage posted:Supposedly there are descendants of the Palaiologos in northwest Italy still. I found out yesterday that the Stuart's still exist, so that somehow doesn't surprise me. Maybe they can convince the Turkish Army to hail them as imperator. Or are we considering modern Greece the successor of Rome?
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Jun 20, 2019 08:56
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cheetah7071 posted:The only legitimate ways to ascend to the purple are to be declared emperor by your troops and win a civil war, or to be co-emperor with your predecessor during his lifetime. As the latter is impossible, the only way we're getting a new roman emperor is if turkish troops start caring about 600 year old titles Please stop reminding me that my greatest failure is never being good enough at Victoria 2 to reform the Byzantine Empire
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Jun 20, 2019 10:45
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The Roman Empire ceased to exist in 395 when Theodosius I died. It was replaced by two successor states that occupied the same territory. Neither successor state can be the thing it succeeded. Everyone that claimed the title since Theo I has been a pretender. If you want to recreate Rome you need to reconquer all of it. 
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Jun 20, 2019 17:46
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Family Values posted:The Roman Empire ceased to exist in 395 when Theodosius I died. It was replaced by two successor states that occupied the same territory. Neither successor state can be the thing it succeeded. Everyone that claimed the title since Theo I has been a pretender. If you want to recreate Rome you need to reconquer all of it.  Let's start conquering
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Jun 20, 2019 18:10
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Something that just occurred to me: Discussion of plagues/diseases accompanying armies is absolutely ubiquitous in descriptions of modern/early modern wars. But I'm not sure I've heard of a single description of that in ancient armies. Is this a case of poor record keeping on that topic, or something else? I have the vague idea (no idea how accurate it is) that the additional millennium between antiquity and the modern era allowed for a number of our worst diseases to evolve into the scourges they became, so maybe there were just fewer diseases around for ancient armies to catch?
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Jun 20, 2019 18:59
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cheetah7071 posted:Something that just occurred to me: Interesting theory. Only example that springs to mind is the Athenian plague.
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Jun 20, 2019 19:06
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A significant factor is simply the size of the armies. An entire Roman legion was about 5,000 men; most battles in ancient times were fought with a few hundred on each side. The sanitary and environmental impact of amassing armies of tens of thousands created a much more favorable environment for disease to spread.
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Jun 20, 2019 19:12
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cheetah7071 posted:Something that just occurred to me: It’s a boring way to die. Nobody wants to read about 20% of your army making GBS threads themselves to death.
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Jun 20, 2019 19:12
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The Antonine plague was spread by soldiers returning from campaigns in Asia. The Hun army was pretty seriously weakened by malaria during the invasion of the Roman empire.
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Jun 20, 2019 19:23
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like everyone is forced to read the very earliest Greek record of a plague on a military campaign in high school English. It's in the first chapter of the Iliad, when Apollo sends a plague to punish the Greeks for pillaging his temple or enslaving a priestess or something, i forget why exactly.
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Jun 20, 2019 19:31
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They enslaved the priest’s daughter by pillaging the temple, but that isn’t directly why they were cursed. The priest came to the Greek camp to ransom her, which the Greeks were on board with, but Agamemnon was upset about the idea of losing his hot/useful new slave and sent the priest packing. So the priest complained to Apollo who plagued the Greeks until they would agree to give the priest his daughter back for free.
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Jun 20, 2019 19:40
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the romans suffered less from this because they were unusually fastidious about camp hygiene, and our most detailed sources on ancient warfare are roman
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Jun 20, 2019 19:41
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Jazerus posted:the romans suffered less from this because they were unusually fastidious about camp hygiene, and our most detailed sources on ancient warfare are roman Kyle Harper also makes a good argument in The Fate of Rome that a lot of diseases didn't exist at the time. We've always thought of these diseases as being human scourges forever but recent work on the suggests many of them are much newer than we thought--I remember specifically there's some evidence tuberculosis may not have been around in the form we know for more than about two thousand years. He also suggests the Antonine Plague was the first genuine pandemic in human history, previous diseases had never had the transportation infrastructure to get over such a massive area before.
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Jun 20, 2019 19:54
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Presumably if smallpox had existed in its early modern ubiquity 13000 years ago Siberians would have brought it with them to America (it took Europeans what, two or three trips to infect the new world?). That seems to put an upper limit on at least its spread across Eurasia which is much shorter than the existence of humans. (Current theories still have some humans crossing the land bridge about that long ago right? Even if they were entering already-inhabited continents)
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Jun 20, 2019 20:04
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cheetah7071 posted:Presumably if smallpox had existed in its early modern ubiquity 13000 years ago Siberians would have brought it with them to America (it took Europeans what, two or three trips to infect the new world?). That seems to put an upper limit on at least its spread across Eurasia which is much shorter than the existence of humans. There were Yupik natives moving back and forth between Siberia and Alaska on boats well after the land bridge was gone, too. But a lot of diseases don't do well in cold environments so it's thought that prevented the transmission of anything. Also may be why the vikings don't seem to have left any disease behind.
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Jun 20, 2019 20:07
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Entire Ancient Roman Town Discovered Off A Highway In Englandquote:The remains of an entire ancient Roman town have been discovered close to a highway in southeast England.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:07
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Squalid posted:like everyone is forced to read the very earliest Greek record of a plague on a military campaign in high school English. It's in the first chapter of the Iliad Eh? I don't know about everyone else but my English classes at school did not in fact cover a poem written in Ancient Greek.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:30
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Deteriorata posted:A significant factor is simply the size of the armies. An entire Roman legion was about 5,000 men; most battles in ancient times were fought with a few hundred on each side. I mean 'ancient times' covers a hell of a wide range but a few hundred a side seems like pushing it to me even when we're talking about like the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain. Ancient Egypt or Parthia or Assyria or whoever sure as poo poo fielded more than that.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:34
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feedmegin posted:I mean 'ancient times' covers a hell of a wide range but a few hundred a side seems like pushing it to me even when we're talking about like the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain. Ancient Egypt or Parthia or Assyria or whoever sure as poo poo fielded more than that. Yeah, a few hundred on each side is not what I would think of for ancient battles. Classical armies were the largest ever fielded until... poo poo, the 1800s? Medieval warfare was on a much, much smaller scale than classical. I would guess Napoleon was the first European to field forces larger than the Romans did and I am far too lazy to check.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:41
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Grand Fromage posted:Classical armies were the largest ever fielded until... poo poo, the 1800s?
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Jun 20, 2019 22:41
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Medieval Chinese armies could be pretty big. The Ming army at Tumu was supposedly 500k, if you believe that, and for all the good it did them.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:46
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Even for China though, it took a long time for armies to get as big as they'd been under Western Han around the time of Christ. Although in that case not because of societal collapse (although also that at first) but because they got rid of mandatory universal military service that'd in place since the time of the ridiculously giant armies during the Warring States period.Grand Fromage posted:Kyle Harper also makes a good argument in The Fate of Rome that a lot of diseases didn't exist at the time. We've always thought of these diseases as being human scourges forever but recent work on the suggests many of them are much newer than we thought--I remember specifically there's some evidence tuberculosis may not have been around in the form we know for more than about two thousand years. He also suggests the Antonine Plague was the first genuine pandemic in human history, previous diseases had never had the transportation infrastructure to get over such a massive area before. Yeah I read on the Ask Historians reddit a bit back that this is likely the case for acne as well, which is some serious bullshit if you ask me. Grand Fromage posted:There were Yupik natives moving back and forth between Siberia and Alaska on boats well after the land bridge was gone, too. But a lot of diseases don't do well in cold environments so it's thought that prevented the transmission of anything. Also may be why the vikings don't seem to have left any disease behind. The far north/eastern Siberian natives were also themselves insulated from most of the Old World diseases in not too dissimilar a way from the american natives, since they would normally only have contact with settled civilizations through several degrees of separation. 1491 I think goes over how the natives of Kamchatka were decimated by smallpox just like the american natives were when the Russians got to them. Koramei fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jun 20, 2019 |
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Jun 20, 2019 22:58
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Squalid posted:like everyone is forced to read the very earliest Greek record of a plague on a military campaign in high school English. It's in the first chapter of the Iliad, when Apollo sends a plague to punish the Greeks for pillaging his temple or enslaving a priestess or something, i forget why exactly. The bible says that the Assyrian siege of Jerusalem failed because of a plague. The bible gives credit to God, the Assyrians apparently deny that they failed and point to the tribute paid by the Israelites to go away. Who knows which version is correct, of course.
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Jun 20, 2019 23:26
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feedmegin posted:Eh? I don't know about everyone else but my English classes at school did not in fact cover a poem written in Ancient Greek. i dunno do they have a separate literature class where you're from? I only had the one grammar and fiction class and it didn't matter what language the books were originally written in.
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Jun 21, 2019 01:17
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Squalid posted:i dunno do they have a separate literature class where you're from? I only had the one grammar and fiction class and it didn't matter what language the books were originally written in. In our classes we read about the Illiad but mostly an outline with select passages. Details like what you described didn't usually come up.
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Jun 21, 2019 01:47
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Squalid posted:i dunno do they have a separate literature class where you're from? I only had the one grammar and fiction class and it didn't matter what language the books were originally written in. I never read the Illiad in high school, I read a novel form version of the Oddessy, and beyond that I read Oedipus Rex and Antigone, and part of the Aeneid but that's about all the exposure to the Greeks and Romans that I got.
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Jun 21, 2019 01:54
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Coincidentally the same day I asked the question about diseases in ancient armies I start reading a book which quotes Appian talking about dysentery among new recruits fighting in Spain, so I guess it was probably just something not often talked about. I'm sure dissertations have been written about estimated mortality rates of soldiers in various periods of history.
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Jun 21, 2019 01:55
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