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Blood Boils posted:I mean, I enjoyed KotM but the 'alpha' nonsense is a pretty big clue these characters might not be correct in all their theories They just mean that both Godzilla and Ghidorah are made of helium nuclei.
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Jun 19, 2019 22:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That all doesn’t matter, because the point is Ripley isn’t trying to blow up the company. Her goal is to blow up the aliens. She has no issue with any of the other W-Y mining colonies. You've moved the goalposts: your original argument was that she "fights to protect" W-Y company property from Burke and the Aliens. That's clearly never the case, unless you somehow regard Newt or Hicks as company property (which, I mean, I guess I could sort of see the outlines of that argument, but it's not why Ripley cares about either of them). I realize this is largely off-topic, and for what it's worth I do agree that KOTM represented a pretty drastic rewrite of Godzilla's motivations from what they were in G'14 (insofar as Godzilla had motivation in that movie), but arguing that Ripley was fighting on behalf of Weyland-Yutani is going way over the cliff of valid interpretation of Aliens. HannibalBarca fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Jun 19, 2019 |
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Jun 19, 2019 22:11
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HannibalBarca posted:You've moved the goalposts: your original argument was that she "fights to protect" W-Y company property from Burke and the Aliens. That's clearly never the case, unless you somehow regard Newt or Hicks as company property (which, I mean, I guess I could sort of see the outlines of that argument, but it's not why Ripley cares about either of them). When I say that Ripley is fighting to protect the company’s assets (a term that is more broad than just physical property), I don’t mean that she would never damage even a single piece of office stationary in pursuit of the aliens. That’s not ‘the goalpost’. Rather, the point is that Ripley recommends nuking the aliens to prevent their spread to Earth (where the company’s HQ is located) and/or other colonies. Although this particular colony is expensive, the company has many of them. Surely you’re familiar with the phrase “cutting your losses.” Remember, this is in the context of this discussion about exposition vs. storytelling. What Ripley says is unimportant compared to what she does, as Ripley does nothing to harm the corporation in any way during the film. She certainly isn’t an anticapitalist; she’s merely against greedy people.
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Jun 19, 2019 22:54
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That is, at best, a tortured reading of the film, and in any event doesn't support the idea of Ripley actively fighting to protect Weyland Yutani "assets" (as opposed to people in general, and particularly the surrogate family she creates to replace the one she lost as a result of the events of Alien and the fact that she was trapped in deep sleep for 50 years), which was the phrase you originally you used.
HannibalBarca fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jun 19, 2019 |
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Jun 19, 2019 23:01
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The company isn't pursuing the 'xenomorphs' as bioweapons. Burke was operating on his own. The company wanted them since the first film, Burke's following company orders and trying to get a bonus.
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Jun 19, 2019 23:18
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s.i.r.e. posted:The company wanted them since the first film, Burke's following company orders and trying to get a bonus. That's part of the issue. That's retconned to not be standard policy. Nobody at the table has heard of this policy or mentions it. It switches to being rogue (or standalone) elements of the company rather than the regular modus operandi. Burke is depicted as acting alone, he doesn't cite company policy, merely how it'll directly benefit him. It paints callous policy as something that needs someone to carry it out, rather than the inevitable end product of an entity like WY. It's a reading supported by omission as much as anything. Back to Godzilla 2, though, i think it had a few problems with pacing and Kyle Chandler's character, but the part that actually bugged me was when Ghidorah, the Great Red Dragon, Satan, pauses, charges up and uses his main attack to wipe out a small squad of soldiers who were firing completely ineffectually at him. It just seemed like a lot of effort for a godlike creature to go to. I think it just stood out because it so sharply contrasted with the fantastic gag in the first one where some soldiers start firing on Godzilla, realise the absurdity of what they're doing and stop, all without Godzilla even noticing that they were there. G14 was just a lot more focused on what it was doing and how it was doing it, while this one feels like a bit of a camel. It's a pity, because there's some bloody brilliant shots in there. That shot of Ghidorah after he ingests the electricity is loving incredible.
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Jun 20, 2019 02:30
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Snowman_McK posted:Back to Godzilla 2, though, i think it had a few problems with pacing and Kyle Chandler's character, but the part that actually bugged me was when Ghidorah, the Great Red Dragon, Satan, pauses, charges up and uses his main attack to wipe out a small squad of soldiers who were firing completely ineffectually at him. It just seemed like a lot of effort for a godlike creature to go to. I think it just stood out because it so sharply contrasted with the fantastic gag in the first one where some soldiers start firing on Godzilla, realise the absurdity of what they're doing and stop, all without Godzilla even noticing that they were there. It's almost like they were comparing the two.
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Jun 20, 2019 02:37
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Ghidorah enjoys killing people even though they pose no threat to him. Its what makes him the bad guy.
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Jun 20, 2019 02:45
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I enjoyed this movie but it felt weirdly choppy at times like with Mothra's death and none of the jokes landed for me. I have to agree they went a little too far with humanizing the monsters with having them all bow to Godzilla at the end compared to everything else about their behavior in 14 and much of this movie. Wasn't the whole alpha wolf thing disproved in like the 70s? Yet the guy whose literal only skills are "knows a lot about wolves" and "bland lead plot armor" is the one going on about this stuff? I don't know, I never thought I'd say this but I think I preferred the bland characters of 14 to whatever they were going for with this. I don't know, it felt like a weird mix of them trying to make a safer movie while still trying to be a sequel to 14. Though of course making a movie that has to be a kinda sorta sequel to 14 and Skull Island at the same time effected that. Mantis42 posted:Ghidorah enjoys killing people even though they pose no threat to him. Its what makes him the bad guy. Tezcatlipoca posted:It's almost like they were comparing the two. Yeah this much was obvious and I liked Ghidorah a lot in general. I love when one of the heads tries to eat some but the main head gets it focused on other stuff instead.
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Jun 20, 2019 02:56
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Neo Rasa posted:
It was, but the *vast* majority of people don't know that. The writers either didn't know it was debunked either (my bet), or else knew but used it anyway because they knew the audience would go "oh yeah, wolf pack!".
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Jun 20, 2019 03:50
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Annath posted:It was, but the *vast* majority of people don't know that. "Audiences liked Jurassic World!"
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Jun 20, 2019 04:06
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it's pretty obvious that the writers were trying to capture that sweet, sweet A/B/O fanfic writer market
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Jun 20, 2019 05:03
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Mantis42 posted:Ghidorah enjoys killing people even though they pose no threat to him. Its what makes him the bad guy. I got that. It's just how much effort he seemed to have to put into it. He takes a full moment to charge up his main attack in order to do it to 6 people. I know the sort of scene they're evoking, but it didn't work for me.
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Jun 20, 2019 07:34
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Snowman_McK posted:I got that. It's just how much effort he seemed to have to put into it. He takes a full moment to charge up his main attack in order to do it to 6 people. I know the sort of scene they're evoking, but it didn't work for me. He's been on ice for thousands of years, he's probably been wanting to give it a good go for ages. The key thing about the Kaiju being humanised is that Ghidorah is the equivalent of a kid squashing bugs because they can.
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Jun 20, 2019 10:39
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The key thing about the Kaiju being humanised is that Ghidorah is the equivalent of a kid squashing bugs because they can. The issue is that it’s more like shooting five ants with a shotgun. HannibalBarca posted:That is, at best, a tortured reading of the film, and in any event doesn't support the idea of Ripley actively fighting to protect Weyland Yutani "assets" (as opposed to people in general, particularly the surrogate family she creates to replace the one she lost Oh ok, I see where you’re getting mixed up. Every character is out to defend ‘people in general’ and/or their (surrogate) family or whatever. That’s default. White Dad is doing that, Serizawa’s doing that, Charles Dance is doing that, Ghidorah is doing that - even Rodan, etc. It applies to literally every single character in Godzilla 2. In Aliens, you don’t think Burke has a family? Here’s where it might be helpful to break down the plot of Aliens. The event that sets everything in motion is that Ripley straight-up announces the location of the Alien eggs to a bunch of Weyland Yutani execs, because she doesn’t want to lose her job. She clearly trusts them to use this information responsibly. (As Snowman notes, that’s a retcon.) But anyways, none of the execs believe Ripley because they think aliens are stupid, and this particular alien is bullshit. They aren’t interested in the potentially super-valuable alien at all. (Another retcon.) It turns out Ash was just chasing the alien because of a computer glitch. (Retcon.) Burke, however, takes a chance and uses Ripley’s information to search for the eggs in secret. The colony’s prospectors are offered a cut of the exclusive rights to the find, and even successfully capture several aliens. This is great for Burke and Newt’s family - but it’s against company policy. Burke was supposed to go through all the standard safety and security procedures, which would let W-Y have full rights to the find, and all of the profit. (Burke hopes to bullshit his way out of this part by, if necessary, claiming he didn't know the eggs were there.) Of course, there’s an accident and the colonists are wiped out along with possibly the entire facility. So, from that point onward, the entire plot centers around Burke’s attempt to cover up the accident so that the company won’t find out about it. Burke is protecting himself (and his family, etc.) against the company - acting against the company’s interests, acting out of desperation because he’s hosed. Point is both Burke and Ripley are motivated by keeping their jobs, protecting their families, etc., but Ripley works with the company where Burke is working against it. Burke’s ‘excessive’ greed threatens the corporation. Why bring this up in the Godzilla 2 thread? Well, first, Aliens is a sort of kaiju movie, and has been hugely influential in the genre. You get overt Aliens references in Gamera 2, G Vs. Destroyer, Gunhed, Godzilla 1998, Godzilla 2014, Jurassic World, and so-forth. But the more point is that you really can’t rely on assumptions about the characters based on their ‘types’ or whatever, assuming that expository dialogue is just a directly true. Serizawa is a ‘good guy’ but the fact is that he really knows almost nothing about Godzilla, and what little he does know is coloured by his relationship to his father who died in Hiroshima. “August 6, 1945”. In 2014, Watanabe was 55 and so, even though he’s playing a character at least 14 years older, Serizawa must have been super-young when Hiroshima happened. Maybe even a newborn. He likely has no memories of his father at all. So, Serizawa pursues Godzilla not because he’s really interested in the science, but because the mystery of Godzilla is the mystery of his father - and he wants to retain that mystery. Serizawa spends nearly two decades investigating the MUTOs instead of Godzilla because of this, and it’s perhaps the main reason why he doesn’t try to kill the male as it starts absorbing radiation, and growing, at the edge of an abandoned city. Serizawa creates a fake radioactive contamination zone so that he can be alone with him, pointedly - and this comfortable isolation is shattered by the intrusion of Brian Cranston (aka Godzilla). In other words, like most any character, Serizawa is human, fallible, and has motivations outside his job description - many that he is not altogether conscious of. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Jun 20, 2019 |
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Jun 20, 2019 14:49
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Snowman_McK posted:I got that. It's just how much effort he seemed to have to put into it. He takes a full moment to charge up his main attack in order to do it to 6 people. I know the sort of scene they're evoking, but it didn't work for me. iirc didn't one of the heads literally start sliding and slithering over the ashes of the recently zapped marines.
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Jun 20, 2019 16:33
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Ghidorah is pretty clearly characterized as petty, violent, and very eager to flex his power where people can see it. If he had a voice he'd be doing Big JRPG Villain Laughs every other scene. He could just step on them, sure, but he wants to see their awe and terror as he charges up a gout of lightning to utterly obliterate them. Lefty rolls around and laps up their ashes, and after Ghidorah smashes the lady whose name I don't immediately remember, they pick up the ice chunk she's crushed in and start chomping it up. It might not be the most reasonable taken out of the context of the rest of his character, but looking at everything else he does in the movie, it falls pretty well in line.
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Jun 20, 2019 16:45
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SirDrone posted:iirc didn't one of the heads literally start sliding and slithering over the ashes of the recently zapped marines. Slithering and licking, even. It was actually a great moment of characterization and even humor, as the other head had to get his attention. It's your first real introduction to Lefty, Space Satan's younger-brother personality.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:30
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The head's name is Kevin, btw.
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Jun 20, 2019 19:26
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Schwarzwald posted:"Audiences liked Jurassic World!" I hated Jurassic World, but gotta admit KotM does have a ton of similarities
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Jun 20, 2019 21:01
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Squidtentacle posted:Ghidorah is pretty clearly characterized as petty, violent, and very eager to flex his power where people can see it. If he had a voice he'd be doing Big JRPG Villain Laughs every other scene. The scene that borrows the framing from Godzilla vs King Ghidorah is one of the first instances we see a true Ghidorah flex - he spreads his wings to make himself look bigger and to intimidate Godzilla, much like how many animals do this in nature. A neat touch.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:56
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Ghost Leviathan posted:He's been on ice for thousands of years, he's probably been wanting to give it a good go for ages. Well, have him hit a bigger target. One of the best examples of these scenes is from Kung Fu Hustle. One of the minor villains is chastising the kung fu killer, who casually slaps him, breaking his neck and spinning his head round a couple of times. A nice reminder of just how powerful this guy is compared to a normal human. I think it also bugged me since a genuine display of Ghidorah's power, wrecking the US fleet, happens off screen. As it stands, his display is jumping and down on two ants, with the implication that he actually needs to jump that high to hurt them.
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Jun 21, 2019 00:16
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Not sure if anyone has been checking out KotM's box office figures lately. Calling it a flop to me seems outright false. Box Office Mojo's budget states 170 mil. The common formula is to double the budget for marketing costs for the "true budget" KotM has now crossed that threshold (340 mil) worldwide and will likely remain in theaters for 4-6 weeks. In the US it is ranking above the new X-Men despite the latter being a newer release.
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Jun 21, 2019 01:31
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Mokelumne Trekka posted:Not sure if anyone has been checking out KotM's box office figures lately. Calling it a flop to me seems outright false. Box Office Mojo's budget states 170 mil. The common formula is to double the budget for marketing costs for the "true budget" A sizable chunk of KOTM's box office came from China ($120 million+) and from what I understand, studios only get like a 20-25% cut of the profits there. KOTM looks like it'll have maybe similar/slightly worse performance than Alita: Battle Angel. Alita's production budget was also reported to be around $170 million and it closed out its theatrical run at just over $400 million worldwide, with roughly $130 million of that made from China. So as far as I know, Alita did make money back against its budget, just not a lot. KOTM will probably be in the same kind of boat, but I'm thinking it's in a shittier boat because a bunch of other summer tentpoles are coming out in the next few weeks.
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Jun 21, 2019 01:55
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KOTM also did really, really well in Japan, beating 2014 and Shin there. Which isn't enough for it to be a "success" exactly, but still, that's good, I think.
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Jun 21, 2019 01:58
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It's not doing great but then it seems like NOTHING that isn't Disney backed is doing well now. It's shaping up to be a rough summer.
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Jun 21, 2019 01:59
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teagone posted:A sizable chunk of KOTM's box office came from China ($120 million+) and from what I understand, studios only get like a 20-25% cut of the profits there. Isn't this due studios having to partner with Chinese distributors? Legendary is owned by a Chinese company, maybe that affects the calculus.
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Jun 21, 2019 02:10
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King of the Monsters is going to bring in a lot of merch sales as well
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Jun 21, 2019 02:23
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Burkion posted:King of the Monsters is going to bring in a lot of merch sales as well I was going to mention this, it seems like one of those movies like Batman vs. Superman or any Avengers movie (and Man of Steel did this too IIRC) where it probably already turned a profit just in deals made for merchandise months before it was even out in theaters.
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Jun 21, 2019 02:44
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Maxwell Lord posted:It's not doing great but then it seems like NOTHING that isn't Disney backed is doing well now. It's shaping up to be a rough summer. Yes, KOTM's underperformance looks a lot less awful when you stack it next to Dark Phoenix and Men In Black: International, the genre pictures that followed immediately on its heels. Maybe this is solipsistic on my part, but I can't help but attribute this to the fact that MIB and X-Men fans aren't seeing those movies 5+ times...unlike, *cough* uh, some Godzilla fans....
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Jun 21, 2019 03:00
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HannibalBarca posted:Yes, KOTM's underperformance looks a lot less awful when you stack it next to Dark Phoenix and Men In Black: International, the genre pictures that followed immediately on its heels. Maybe this is solipsistic on my part, but I can't help but attribute this to the fact that MIB and X-Men fans aren't seeing those movies 5+ times...unlike, *cough* uh, some Godzilla fans.... There's also the way that this is a movie that really does warrant being seen on a big screen. Even me, who's a little cold on it, would still unambiguously recommend that it be seen in the cinema, because, while it struggles in a few bits, the big scenes are so loving big. Meanwhile, both Dark Phoenix and MiB scream 'just catch it on streaming whenever'
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Jun 21, 2019 03:03
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I've been away from the thread for awhile so forgive me if this has been brought up, but I saw it for the second time last night (son had to see it again) and a couple of things jumped out at me. Nothing serious... Did anyone else notice the size of the "tropical storm" Ghidorah is creating? Quippy McQuipface remarks about it while referring to a display. On that display is what he thinks is a tropical storm...that would cover most of the continental U.S. Also, how the hell did I not notice Joe Morton the first time I saw it? More importantly, why the gently caress was Joe Morton in the movie for like 20 seconds? Did he have a much bigger role that got cut?
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Jun 22, 2019 17:24
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Ghidorah created a category 6 hurricane, which as a Florida goon made feel very, very uncomfortable
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Jun 22, 2019 17:29
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Kaiju Cage Match posted:Ghidorah created a category 6 hurricane, which as a Florida goon made feel very, very uncomfortable It's one worse than a category five.
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Jun 22, 2019 17:31
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Kaiju Cage Match posted:Ghidorah created a category 6 hurricane, which as a Florida goon made feel very, very uncomfortable And also completely misunderstands how the hurricane scale system works. Hurricane categories are based primarily on the expected destructive effects of the storm, not directly on wind speed. Category 5 has no upper limit on wind speed because the definition of a Category 5 is that it's expected to inflict total destruction, period.
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Jun 22, 2019 18:15
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Well its one more isn't it? He goes to 6.
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Jun 22, 2019 18:43
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Cythereal posted:And also completely misunderstands how the hurricane scale system works. Hurricane categories are based primarily on the expected destructive effects of the storm, not directly on wind speed. Category 5 has no upper limit on wind speed because the definition of a Category 5 is that it's expected to inflict total destruction, period. It's a Category 5 + 1 Kaiju for a Category 6! 
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Jun 22, 2019 18:57
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Cythereal posted:And also completely misunderstands how the hurricane scale system works. Hurricane categories are based primarily on the expected destructive effects of the storm, not directly on wind speed. Category 5 has no upper limit on wind speed because the definition of a Category 5 is that it's expected to inflict total destruction, period. i feel like if you interpret Category 6 as "worse than a naturally-occurring storm could ever possibly be, run like gently caress yesterday" it makes sense
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Jun 22, 2019 19:03
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Kaiju are the Category 6 They're not talking about the storm
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Jun 22, 2019 19:06
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Mr. Funny Pants posted:Also, how the hell did I not notice Joe Morton the first time I saw it? More importantly, why the gently caress was Joe Morton in the movie for like 20 seconds? Did he have a much bigger role that got cut? He's playing one of the founders of Monarch, and a character previously in Kong Skull Island. I assume he will have more to do in GVK.
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Jun 22, 2019 21:53
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