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The episode where Barney Fife commits some minor traffic infraction with the code number 911 and he apologizes for doing 911 aged weirdly.
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Jun 30, 2019 05:24
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Randallteal posted:This is kind of a tangent, but I've been going through all the fifties and sixties-era TV on Amazon Prime the last couple weeks, and it's interesting to see how much society and personal interactions have changed, obviously, but also how much hasn't changed at all, and how many sixties sitcom scripts could be reused in modern sitcoms today without updating anything except the outfits. I suspect that lots of old sitcoms could just be refilmed and they'd fit right in. People might remember the sitcom Ned & Stacey (which I now find out finished in 1997 and looks ancient) in which the setup was that an advertising firm will only promote Ned if he's married, so Stacey moves in and they have a sham marriage. Apart from that reading as strange even at the time, I recollect an old b&w sitcom I saw in my youth that has the same plot, perhaps even down to the male character working in an advertising agency.
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Jun 30, 2019 07:17
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Hell, the writers mentioned they have a hard time coming up with names for OSI members because it's very difficult to find horrible puns that haven't already been taken. (hence why most OSI codenames are more bad taste ones that wouldn't pass muster for a children's franchise)
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Jun 30, 2019 07:44
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nonathlon posted:I suspect that lots of old sitcoms could just be refilmed and they'd fit right in.
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Jun 30, 2019 12:45
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Rick Berman sucks but he is so far from being the only homophobic person working on Star Trek or the reason you didn't get to see Riker dive tongue-first into Geordi's butthole It was a consumer product in the loving 90s, the people who really stopped there from being lgbt content was the loving audience.
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Jun 30, 2019 16:04
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other consumer products in the 90s included Will & Grace and Ellen
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Jun 30, 2019 16:18
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InediblePenguin posted:other consumer products in the 90s included Will & Grace and Ellen TNG was 87-94, Ellen started in 94 and came out in 97, Will and Grace started in 98. They were not contemporaries and the public was rapidly shifting at the time.
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Jun 30, 2019 16:24
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Toshimo posted:TNG was 87-94, Ellen started in 94 and came out in 97, Will and Grace started in 98. They were not contemporaries and the public was rapidly shifting at the time. Even in the early 2000s people in their mid to late 20s could say that it went from gay portrayl being "special episode of the week/child molester" to openly gay main characters on a successful sitcom in the space of less then 10 years. Once the floodgates were opened, suddenly everyone realized that they people who hated it enough to watch didn't represent a large enough demographic to cost them money. DS9 also had a gay kiss in the mid 90s, so its not like Star Trek as a whole just didnt admit gay was a thing.
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Jun 30, 2019 16:36
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Ellen went off the air about a year after the coming-out episode. Americans were not ready for gay characters. Will & Grace came out a few years later and did well, but it took a couple of seasons to become a hit and gay men have always been more ‘mainstream’ than gay women. I’m trying to think, is there a broadcast network show with a gay woman as it’s star? The Fosters on ABC Family is the only one I can think of. People were excited when Brooklyn 99 had the courage to make one of their actresses bisexual. There might be more straight men playing transsexuals (Transparent)on TV than lesbians characters in lead roles. We’re still pretty behind.
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Jun 30, 2019 17:04
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pentyne posted:Even in the early 2000s people in their mid to late 20s could say that it went from gay portrayl being "special episode of the week/child molester" to openly gay main characters on a successful sitcom in the space of less then 10 years. And they got tons of poo poo letters for it, that episode got tons of hate despite it doing a "notgay!" (one was a man in the past life they shared) and also both women were HOT as HELL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwS8ulTidro
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Jun 30, 2019 17:12
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also will&grace and ellen were mostly products for women, who are/were not, like, massively more accepting than men, but were more tolerant to a statistically significant extent e: Pew indicates it was a +12pt spread in acceptance of homosexuality in '94, when polling women vs men Pick has a new favorite as of 17:17 on Jun 30, 2019 |
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Jun 30, 2019 17:14
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Krispy Wafer posted:Ellen went off the air about a year after the coming-out episode. Americans were not ready for gay characters. Will & Grace came out a few years later and did well, but it took a couple of seasons to become a hit and gay men have always been more ‘mainstream’ than gay women. I can't think of any from a broadcast network like Fox, NBC, ABC, or CBS. Obviously shows like The L Word have been around on cable channels since the mid-2000s. There are some current CW shows that are pretty good with representation - Legends of Tomorrow has a bi hero Sara Lance and an actually bisexual John Constantine (one of like, three, bi male characters on television) and the hero character Thunder on Black Lightning is a lesbian. I don't watch those shows, but they don't sound too bad in terms of LGB rep. Rosa Diaz on Brooklyn 99 is a great example of representation because the actress herself is bi and she specifically requested that it become a part of her character on the show. When you're talking about the "mainstream" factor of minority representation I think you have to account also for the way the characters end up being treated. You can't really deny that it was more common to see gay male characters on TV than lesbian characters, but the gay male characters would still end up being total stereotypes a lot of the time. If they were in a comedy, usually the plot would be "this person hides they are gay, they are ashamed" (Arrested Development); in a drama, it's "this person hides they are gay, they are ashamed, they die" (Sopranos). Even if you had a less stereotypical gay character like Will from Will & Grace, there would be someone like Jack who would bring it back to the established stereotypes. Plus around the late 90s - mid 2000s is when poo poo like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy got big, which I despised (and I still don't like the modern version). It was a weird time. Made me think there was no way I could possibly be into dudes cause I didn't like fashion, or whatever. It feels like now, along with, you know, acknowledging the existence of lesbians, gay male portrayals have gotten a lot more nuanced and realistic. Trans portrayals... well, they're still pretty bad, right up to the modern day.
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Jun 30, 2019 17:59
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Pick posted:And they got tons of poo poo letters for it, that episode got tons of hate despite it doing a "notgay!" (one was a man in the past life they shared) and also both women were HOT as HELL Interestingly the letters they received were mostly negative but the emails they received were positive, which probably shows the spread in young vs old viewers. But also remember they had mirror universe episodes (everyone is evil/ruthless/selfish in the mirror universe) and to show how eviiiiiiiil Mirror Kira is they made her a sex crazed bisexual who wanted to bone her regular universe self and also kind of kept Ezri as a mercenary/prostitute. There was also kinda a weird bondage thing with Mirror Worf and Mirror Garak. Now Discovery tried to be all cool and good about gay characters and they still killed off one of their gay men to progress the story of a straight man and showed Mirror Georgiou as a sex crazed bisexual. Star Trek is a land of contrasts I guess. Humerus has a new favorite as of 18:11 on Jun 30, 2019 |
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Jun 30, 2019 18:06
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How was Queer as Folk? I never watched it, but I had a few friends (straight gals) that were super into it.
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Jun 30, 2019 18:47
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Humerus posted:Interestingly the letters they received were mostly negative but the emails they received were positive, which probably shows the spread in young vs old viewers. Red Dwarf did that joke with the Evil version of Rimmer being a bizzare bondage guy. "I'm going to hurt you... and then... i'm going to have you... You see... I'm not a very nice person..."
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Jun 30, 2019 18:53
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:That is laudable, but I kind of feel that the damage is too great barring something like them donating all their assets to the SPLC.
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Jun 30, 2019 18:56
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The real undiscovered country is when Kirk and Spock finally get to kiss
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Jun 30, 2019 18:58
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Krispy Wafer posted:Ellen went off the air about a year after the coming-out episode. Americans were not ready for gay characters. Will & Grace came out a few years later and did well, but it took a couple of seasons to become a hit and gay men have always been more ‘mainstream’ than gay women. The main character in Abby's (the Natalie Morales show where she runs an unliscensed bar in her backyard) was bisexual but nobody watched Abby's because it was bland and not very good and it got cancelled. BIG FLUFFY DOG has a new favorite as of 19:30 on Jun 30, 2019 |
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Jun 30, 2019 19:25
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Casey Finnigan posted:I can't think of any from a broadcast network like Fox, NBC, ABC, or CBS. Obviously shows like The L Word have been around on cable channels since the mid-2000s. There are some current CW shows that are pretty good with representation - Legends of Tomorrow has a bi hero Sara Lance and an actually bisexual John Constantine (one of like, three, bi male characters on television) and the hero character Thunder on Black Lightning is a lesbian. I don't watch those shows, but they don't sound too bad in terms of LGB rep. Rosa Diaz on Brooklyn 99 is a great example of representation because the actress herself is bi and she specifically requested that it become a part of her character on the show. Gay men are funny. Lesbians aren’t*. That’s covers about 90% of LGBTQ characters on television. Most gay men on TV are there for a laugh. Good Girls has a Black police lieutenant who you don’t find out is gay until several episodes later. It’s not a part of his character any more than the sexual proclivities of anyone else. That’s good representation. *lesbians can be funny of course, but if you’re confined to stereotypes then gay male tropes are a lot more entertaining than traditional lesbian ones.
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Jun 30, 2019 19:40
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hyperhazard posted:How was Queer as Folk? I never watched it, but I had a few friends (straight gals) that were super into it. *IIRC, it's been a while, but I remember L Word being real, real bad
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Jun 30, 2019 19:41
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I've kept on with Star Trek TNG's first season although skipping the third episode, and it's still got some fairly neat concepts, like the Edo and the strange creatures looking after them, so I'm not finding it all that bad. A little inconsistent at times, but the stories are fairly fun for the most part even if the Ferengi are pretty basic right now.
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Jun 30, 2019 19:46
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Krispy Wafer posted:Ellen went off the air about a year after the coming-out episode. Americans were not ready for gay characters. Will & Grace came out a few years later and did well, but it took a couple of seasons to become a hit and gay men have always been more ‘mainstream’ than gay women. I wonder if this is, at least in part because of letting the conservative viewpoint frame the debate around LGBT rights. Homophobic and transphobic media is always about how gay men and transwomen are gross. I'm not even sure if conservatives know transmen exist. Which isn't to discount that good old-fashioned sexism is a major factor as well.
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Jun 30, 2019 20:21
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Pick posted:The real undiscovered country is when Kirk and Spock finally get to kiss It really wouldn't shock me if whatever original series writers still living said "actually Kirk was bisexual all along" and everybody was like "yeah big surprise, Kirk hosed everything." You could have them come out and say that he also had a sex robot and people would probably react with "well of course he did."
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Jun 30, 2019 21:14
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ToxicSlurpee posted:It really wouldn't shock me if whatever original series writers still living said "actually Kirk was bisexual all along" and everybody was like "yeah big surprise, Kirk hosed everything." You could have them come out and say that he also had a sex robot and people would probably react with "well of course he did." Kirk Really missed out by Next Gen, he'd have loved the planet in "Justice" the horniest planet in the galaxy.
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Jun 30, 2019 21:23
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:It's kind of the yin and yang of Venture Brothers. They have a lot of fun callbacks and continuity, but that means that when they decide to bring Sgt. Hatred back they included the little background joke from season one of Hatred being the only villain who had gotten creepy with the boys. Except they didn't think about how hosed and unfunny it'd be. imma be honest, i actually kind of like how they ended up handling him. the tone of the Hatred stuff course-corrected hard pretty early from comedy to tragedy, and a lot of the stuff with him is genuinely really unsettling and sad; if he'd been solely a source of jokes, that would be awful, but the show really does make a point of how his pedophilia turbofucks all of his interpersonal relationships and drives him to absolute desperation.
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Jun 30, 2019 21:27
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the queer as folk talk reminds me of when the creator was hired as the showrunner for dr who and tviv would complain constantly about him including gay characters in the show
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Jul 1, 2019 00:44
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Gum posted:the queer as folk talk reminds me of when the creator was hired as the showrunner for dr who and tviv would complain constantly about him including gay characters in the show Imagine watching Dr Who and thinking the problem with it is too many gay characters. edit: I just remembered people losing their poo poo because Dr Who is a woman now lol
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Jul 1, 2019 04:52
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ToxicSlurpee posted:It really wouldn't shock me if whatever original series writers still living said "actually Kirk was bisexual all along" and everybody was like "yeah big surprise, Kirk hosed everything." You could have them come out and say that he also had a sex robot and people would probably react with "well of course he did." IIRC, in the The Motion Picture novelization there's an aside written in character as Kirk wondering why people think he'd want to hook up with someone who only has sex once every seven years.
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Jul 1, 2019 05:08
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Toshimo posted:TNG was 87-94, Ellen started in 94 and came out in 97, Will and Grace started in 98. They were not contemporaries and the public was rapidly shifting at the time. Brothers was on Showtime before TNG and syndicating on the same channels that carried it, though only after 10.
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Jul 1, 2019 05:30
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buddhist nudist posted:I wonder if this is, at least in part because of letting the conservative viewpoint frame the debate around LGBT rights. Homophobic and transphobic media is always about how gay men and transwomen are gross. I'm not even sure if conservatives know transmen exist. Two and A Half Men of all things had a transman, handled... Ehh, probably not well but I did laugh.
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Jul 1, 2019 08:00
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Professor Wayne posted:Ha, was this common knowledge? I asked about this exact thing at their panel at San Diego Comic Con last year.
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Jul 1, 2019 09:16
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Gum posted:the queer as folk talk reminds me of when the creator was hired as the showrunner for dr who and tviv would complain constantly about him including gay characters in the show The problem was that it felt horribly shoehorned in. Visibility is good, but the way of doing that kind of thing is to either mention it offhand like any other relationship and not make a big deal of it, or to make it a big deal in order to get a point across. But he wanted it both ways, so a character would announce that they were gay and the episode would stop dead so everyone could react. And then it would be entirely inconsequential to the story and never mentioned again. Either make it normal or don't, but don't have a scene grind to a halt so that one person can say "I... am GAY!!!!" while mugging for the camera, followed by four people exchanging looks if you're just going to then carry on as if it never happened. Sweevo has a new favorite as of 12:35 on Jul 1, 2019 |
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Jul 1, 2019 12:09
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Jul 1, 2019 12:24
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Randallteal posted:This is kind of a tangent, but I've been going through all the fifties and sixties-era TV on Amazon Prime the last couple weeks, and it's interesting to see how much society and personal interactions have changed, obviously, but also how much hasn't changed at all, and how many sixties sitcom scripts could be reused in modern sitcoms today without updating anything except the outfits. It's also interesting how you can see some society changing over the course of some of the longer running shows, like there's an episode in the first season of The Andy Griffith Show from 1960 where Andy's girlfriend threatens to run for city council and Andy and basically ever male character on the show (including Opie!) are shocked and appalled that a woman would run for city council. Then they do a somewhat similar premise (but not a direct sequel) seven seasons later in 1966 where Aunt Bee is going to run for city council and asks Andy something like "what, you don't think women should be involved in politics?" and Andy's reaction is "no, no, I get it." I definitely wouldn't watch most of these shows all the way through, but skipping around has been fun, and a few of them are still pretty entertaining (again, sitcoms in the style of How I Met Your Mother or Frasier have apparently not evolved much over the decades in their setups and jokes.) Interestingly the attitudes about women working didn't really change until well into the 90's. There was that episode of the Simpsons where Marge becomes a cop, and everyone acts shocked that she's getting a job. Per Wikipedia, The Springfield Connection aired in 1995. Krispy Wafer posted:Ellen went off the air about a year after the coming-out episode. Americans were not ready for gay characters. Will & Grace came out a few years later and did well, but it took a couple of seasons to become a hit and gay men have always been more ‘mainstream’ than gay women. It wasn't Ellen coming out that killed the show. Here's an episode of Witness about it (it's only 10 minutes long: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csywx8
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Jul 1, 2019 12:34
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DACK FAYDEN posted:I think they mentioned it in the commentary for the episode with the three disposable mooks - who, to be fair, were Bum Rush (a hobo with a second dogsuited man in a shopping cart), Tank Top (a guy with a tank for the top half of his body), and Shuttlecock (a badminton astronaut, somehow not a dirty joke) so they certainly did settle on three good names eventually And Slap Chop, a karate Vince Offer. Later on there's Afterburner, a pilot with horrible burns all over his body. It's easy to forget that Shore Leave was originally introduced as Holy Diver with his *ahem* partner Sky Pilot, formerly Mile High, as they'd apparently become born-again Christians. (as with many things involving the OSI this was part of a convoluted and ridiculous plot or two) Later on Shore Leave resumed his old persona but Sky Pilot kept his. Fun thing about Venture Bros is that nearly every character of some prominence has gone by at least two or three codenames, especially in the Guild and OSI. Sweevo posted:The problem was that it felt horribly shoehorned in. Visibility is good, but the way of doing that kind of thing is to either mention it offhand like any other relationship and not make a big deal of it, or to make it a big deal in order to get a point across. But he wanted it both ways, so a character would announce that they were gay and the episode would stop dead so everyone could react. And then it would be entirely inconsequential to the story and never be mentioned again. Either make it normal or don't, but don't have a scene grind to a halt so that one person can say "I... am GAY!!!!" followed by four people exchanging looks if you're just going to then carry on as if it never nothing happened. There were the old gay ladies in that traffic jam episode, bonus for flouting stereotypes of all gay people being marketably young. (or creepy old pedophiles)
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Jul 1, 2019 12:35
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I'll give him a pass with Gridlock because the idea was they'd been stuck in traffic for at least a decade.
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Jul 1, 2019 12:39
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Iron Crowned posted:Interestingly the attitudes about women working didn't really change until well into the 90's. There was that episode of the Simpsons where Marge becomes a cop, and everyone acts shocked that she's getting a job. Per Wikipedia, The Springfield Connection aired in 1995. Things like are what surprise me: I remember 1995 and would have automatically said that it wasn't that bad or backwards relative to the current day. Then you're confronted by actual cultural evidence. On the upside, at least it shows we've made some progress.
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Jul 1, 2019 12:58
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Iron Crowned posted:Interestingly the attitudes about women working didn't really change until well into the 90's. There was that episode of the Simpsons where Marge becomes a cop, and everyone acts shocked that she's getting a job. Per Wikipedia, The Springfield Connection aired in 1995. That was interesting. Sucks how the staff got the axe, but I imagine Ellen was dealing with a lot of poo poo and trying to find her voice. When they mention her brother, who wrote for the show, that's Vance DeGeneres the creator of the 1970's Saturday Night Live character Mr. Bill. Looking down the Wikipedia rabbit hole for 1995 TV shows, I noticed the short-lived the Dana Carvey Show actually had pretty decent ratings (better than Ellen), but got cancelled after 7 episodes. They planned to make it similar to 50's TV shows where there would be one primary sponsor who would be named in the title. Pepsi got the sponsorship, but pulled it at the last minute so the show ran out of money. Even though Pepsi pulled their money, the first 5 episodes kept the theme going: The Taco Bell Dana Carvey Show The Mug Root Beer Dana Carvey Show The Mountain Dew Dana Carvey Show The Diet Mug Root Beer Dana Carvey Show The Pepsi Stuff Dana Carvey Show The last sponsor was a local Chinese restaurant and called The Szechuan Dynasty Dana Carvey Show.
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Jul 1, 2019 13:07
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Sweevo posted:But he wanted it both ways, so a character would announce that they were gay and the episode would stop dead so everyone could react. And then it would be entirely inconsequential to the story and never mentioned again. Either make it normal or don't, but don't have a scene grind to a halt so that one person can say "I... am GAY!!!!" while mugging for the camera, followed by four people exchanging looks if you're just going to then carry on as if it never happened. Mokinokaro posted:I'll give him a pass with Gridlock because the idea was they'd been stuck in traffic for at least a decade. That dialogue in Gridlock was the perfect example of the crap shoehorning mentioned above. So clumsy and unnecessary for the old ladies to highlight the exact nature of their relationship: the main characters were a catman and a human woman who had given birth to actual kittens - at that stage, I think we're open-minded enough to understand the concept of lesbianism.
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Jul 1, 2019 13:19
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Krispy Wafer posted:That was interesting. Sucks how the staff got the axe, but I imagine Ellen was dealing with a lot of poo poo and trying to find her voice. When they mention her brother, who wrote for the show, that's Vance DeGeneres the creator of the 1970's Saturday Night Live character Mr. Bill. NEVER FORGET https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfDjnAdczQI
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Jul 1, 2019 13:29
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