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quote:Shocking to see the leading ideological cause of mass killing in the 20th century get some criticism. Oh, so Capitalism. Yea, certainly great to see that rather than the usual bootlicking. quote:I would've liked it more if Erikson also hadn't said "actually communism sucks too" Same here. It becomes /r/shitliberalssay. It's starting to get like that now in this thread. Oh, and by liberal, I'm going by the socialist definition and not the US one. Pleiades fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Jul 1, 2019 |
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Jul 1, 2019 03:23
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Anyways, Erikson is saying that it all sucks. He is correct.
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Jul 1, 2019 03:55
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Erikson's ideology strikes me as a bit all over the place. It's definitely informed by his career and experience - he's vaguely anprim but has a streak where he definitely respects military hierarchy and "great men" while being quite self-critical about it. I get the impression that his ideal society would be quite like we see a couple of times in the series - small independent "tribes" of educated, disciplined but peaceful people like the Refugium or the Shake, and like the Andii/Bridgeburners try to carve out after Coral - but every one of those in the books falls apart or can't hold. The sort of anarchist Catalonia dream, I guess? He's not writing overly politically so it doesn't need to be much more coherent than that. I'd be interested in seeing him put explicit political thought to paper but it probably wouldn't be very good lol
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Jul 1, 2019 11:11
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I’m pretty sure a matriarchal society of hyper intelligent dinosaurs is Erickson’s ideal and I can’t disagree.
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Jul 1, 2019 21:51
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Ethiser posted:I’m pretty sure a matriarchal society of hyper intelligent dinosaurs is Erickson’s ideal and I can’t disagree. That storyline took me for a ride for sure. I might be due a re-read, it's been a couple of years. Help.
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Jul 2, 2019 00:33
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Raest for president!
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Jul 2, 2019 00:34
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Bauchelain and broach books are good as hell. I can't help but catch myself liking Bauchelain and then realising he's not a very nice person.
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Jul 2, 2019 01:37
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User posted:Raest for president! "Whoops, I thought you'd said 'racist.'" - God, probably
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Jul 2, 2019 03:29
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:Erikson's ideology strikes me as a bit all over the place. It's definitely informed by his career and experience - he's vaguely anprim but has a streak where he definitely respects military hierarchy and "great men" while being quite self-critical about it. Why? Cause mixing politics and fantasy/scifi is inherently a bad idea that never turn out well. Can’t you enjoy an author without knowing their ideology (which for 99% is something rather vague). Also, the reviews for Rejoice seems to say erikson is rather political in that one and also bad at writing.
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Jul 2, 2019 04:51
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Cardiac posted:Why? Oh come on, 1984 turned out just great. Also Rejoice sounds awful. Even worse than Tiste exposition book 3. If you're going to expy Clarke it had best be pure metal. User fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Jul 2, 2019 |
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Jul 2, 2019 05:22
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Cardiac posted:Why? ????? Aren't these genres like classically renowned for social and political commentary?
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Jul 2, 2019 05:32
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dishwasherlove posted:????? Yeah, nothing really "leaves out" social issues and politics. Some authors are just more subtle than others.
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Jul 2, 2019 05:45
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dishwasherlove posted:????? angrily insisting that my 10,000 page book series for adults has no themes or commentary on anything and is literally just a transcript of elves stabbing each other with anime swords, and that it would be bad otherwise Lunchmeat Larry fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Jul 2, 2019 |
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Jul 2, 2019 10:16
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I thought Rejoice was a little smug in some ways but also thought-provoking, and certainly not awful.
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Jul 2, 2019 16:56
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Cardiac posted:Why? You're one of those folks who gets upset when X-men "started" including politics, huh. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Jul 2, 2019 |
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Jul 2, 2019 18:08
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I really enjoyed the malazan books because the setting is egalitarian. There's female soldiers, officers, heads of state. There's people of color that's not portrayed as victims or villains and people are queer without anyone giving poo poo. So that's why it's extra disappointing when Seren Pedac and Mayen is raped and it is so shittily handled.
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Jul 2, 2019 19:04
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He's addressed the inclusion of sexual violence in his work before if you bother to look. The scenes are done because they're supposed to be upsetting and disgusting and they are. They're not glorification or anything else. Even his wife read the scenes he'd written and gave her approval of them being hard to read and tolerate without being gratuitous. Yeah it's fantasy and yeah fantasy has a history of handling it poorly but I dont think in Erikson's case it's some indefensible narrative crime. Sometimes stuff is ugly and hard to swallow because that's the point. This is like when people tried to criticise Drive for the brutality of the violence in certain scenes. It was meant to be confronting. BlindSite fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 00:50
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I'm not particularly sensitive to fictional violence, but the hobbling was incredibly poignant. It felt like getting kicked in the gut, or maybe seeing a loved one get kicked in the gut. I had an actual visceral reaction. If Erickson's intent was to provoke an emotional response and a desire to see vengeance then he succeeded.
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Jul 3, 2019 01:06
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BlindSite posted:He's addressed the inclusion of sexual violence in his work before if you bother to look. You can read the post in the author's own words here(he's the first comment in reply to the blog). Spoilers for DoD and later obviously. People aren't saying that it's an unforgivable narrative sin, they're saying that fantasy authors in particular, but many many male authors, have a tendency to use rape for plot movement or characterization. While SE is better than many, and wrote a pretty good explanation of what the was trying to do, it's a vastly over-used technique. I suspect it's one you find male authors doing way more than women, yet whom are less likely to have had that as life experience.
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Jul 3, 2019 01:53
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Jaxyon posted:You can read the post in the author's own words here(he's the first comment in reply to the blog). Spoilers for DoD and later obviously. And I'm saying just because some authors suck at it, it doesn't make it a fair criticism of someone who doesn't.
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Jul 3, 2019 02:33
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Cardiac posted:Why? I who WHAT now? I mean, unless that's four level deep satire, the entire genre of Fantasy & SciFi have been political commentaries since pretty much
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Jul 3, 2019 02:34
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There’s a lot of fisting in these books too.
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Jul 3, 2019 02:50
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BlindSite posted:And I'm saying just because some authors suck at it, it doesn't make it a fair criticism of someone who doesn't. But the rapes in Midnight Tides was used for plot movement or characterization. In Mayen's case is especially bad because it done so the male characters in the book could get some characterization.
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Jul 3, 2019 04:54
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Y'all make me sad, Reaper's Gale is easily my favourite of the whole series. Like all good epic fantasy, it has a million different plot threads and characters being violently smashed together, but it's right at the sweet spot where you can follow all their motivations and machinations. I really like the way the Edur are just rotting from the inside, and the various minor villains are wonderfully petty, and I like all the minor characters that get their own mini-arcs, even if I couldn't tell you any of their stupid loving names. One of the things I've used to try to push this book on friends is that Deadhouse Gates is a book about how the rich care only for themselves and will try to prolong their own standard of living at any cost, including the lives and livelihoods of the poor I think the reason that ending works so well is there's really no other way it could end. the nobles are scum who don't see what coltaine and the wickans did as anything more than their duty, at BEST, and were constantly aggrieved that he was more concerned with saving everyone than their own comfort. of course they sold out the refugees and the remaining soldiers at the end. they'd been trying to for half a book assholes
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Jul 3, 2019 05:50
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Cardiac posted:Why? There is literally no art that is divorced from politics and the malazan books are incredibly explicit about theirs Like I said, Deadhouse Gates is reallllllly upfront with it
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Jul 3, 2019 05:55
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:One of the things I've used to try to push this book on friends is that Deadhouse Gates is a book about how the rich care only for themselves and will try to prolong their own standard of living at any cost, including the lives and livelihoods of the poor Oh yeah, the nobles are just the worst,and some of the most satisfying deaths in the series. I also use them to sell Malazan to peeps - Erikson is really good at giving conflicted, sy pathetic antagonists, which makes me even more hate-filled when we get to the absolute fuckers I kinda wish he was a bit more constructive in his politics. He does a good job of skewering capital L liberals, but I have no idea from either Malazan or his essays what his ideal world would look like. He went on a bit of a Facebook rant about how "and if you think that means I'm either capitalist or communist then you haven't been paying attention", instead arguing that his ideal politics is "compassion" which is more of a principle than a political position. But then I guess I should just be happy that there's a fantasy author that isn't either a monarchist or a cryptofacist, so, baby steps.
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Jul 3, 2019 13:08
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He's an anarchist is my bet
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Jul 3, 2019 14:53
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Strom Cuzewon posted:
 Pratchett and Mieville are two examples of fantasy authors who can get very political in their books.
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Jul 3, 2019 15:39
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BlindSite posted:And I'm saying just because some authors suck at it, it doesn't make it a fair criticism of someone who doesn't. Yes it does, and SE is more of an author who sucks less on it, than doesn't suck.
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Jul 3, 2019 17:19
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Compassion sounds pretty leftist to me.
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Jul 3, 2019 17:39
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Strom Cuzewon posted:He went on a bit of a Facebook rant about how "and if you think that means I'm either capitalist or communist then you haven't been paying attention", instead arguing that his ideal politics is "compassion" which is more of a principle than a political position. It's a principle that obviates the need for traditional political positions. If everyone lived with the very basic idea of casual compassion and to always try to leave the world around you a little better than before, there'd be a lot less hatred, waste and senseless death and suffering. Of course, this is utopic and human nature will never let this scale past small communities, if at all, which is really part of the message Erikson is trying to convey. "Look what we could have, but in reality it'll never work because being selfish shitheads is our nature."
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Jul 3, 2019 17:45
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Alhazred posted:But the rapes in Midnight Tides was used for plot movement or characterization. In Mayen's case is especially bad because it done so the male characters in the book could get some characterization.
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Jul 3, 2019 18:37
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Infinite Karma posted:Stonny Menackis had a whole character arc and big section of multiple books dealing with the terrible effects of rape, I feel like it was shown to be horrific without looking away (or being lewd), and then showed the broken lives that result from something so terrible. That doesn't make what he did in Midnight Tides better.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:09
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Alhazred posted:That doesn't make what he did in Midnight Tides better.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:18
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Alhazred posted:That doesn't make what he did in Midnight Tides better. You see because he includes 1 male rape victim for every 6 female rapes, he may not be criticized on his treatment of rape by passing the very high bar of "better than most fantasy authors on the subject of rape"
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Jul 3, 2019 19:19
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Jaxyon posted:You see because he includes 1 male rape victim for every 6 female rapes, he may not be criticized on his treatment of rape by passing the very high bar of "better than most fantasy authors on the subject of rape" Is this "1 male rape victim" made of straw? Stonny is a woman.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:48
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AbysmalPeptoBismol posted:Is this "1 male rape victim" made of straw? Stonny is a woman. Udinaas, who had a pretty brutal powerlessness plot for a long time.
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Jul 3, 2019 20:05
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Does Bottle and the Eres'al count?
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Jul 3, 2019 20:08
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Infinite Karma posted:It doesn't make MT better, but it makes me think that Erikson gets it. So I can dislike Midnight Tides for having pointless torture without disliking Erikson, I guess? That's pretty much what I'm been saying. I generally like that malazan series so far, but there's some things in Midnight Tides that feels like a misstep.
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Jul 3, 2019 20:14
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Jan posted:Does Bottle and the Eres'al count? Yes. I forgot about them. Also unless I'm forgetting something else, I'd argue that both male rapes in the series are kinda pointless as well. I was just reading the wiki and apparently the Eres'al also "steals Trulls seed" but with surgery. There's a lot of rape in the books. I'll take back my earlier ratio but not my earlier point.
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Jul 3, 2019 20:19
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