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FuturePastNow posted:I think he was setting up Talbott to be the Space Philippines so Honor's friend Michelle could be Space MacArthur, before someone told him to wrap the story the gently caress up Yeah it's possible. The Talbott Sector had the few parts of the Solarian League with modern tech because for some reason they only ever gave new ships to the frontier sectors despite the Solarian League supposedly being super greedy and thus you think the good ships would go to the home systems or something. So all the good ships would be concentrated in a couple of places where they could more or less 'system hop'. And then they'd just annihilate the entire Solarian League fleet at once that they kept hyping up but it doesn't seem like it ever showed. PupsOfWar posted:not quite accurate Yeah sorry I had to think about it to remember that he was book 3 + book 4, but the relationship kicking off was pretty sudden in 3 I think. Of course I could just be making poo poo up because that's how memorable the relationship was in 3. Kchama fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Jul 8, 2019 |
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Jul 8, 2019 23:13
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Kchama posted:Yeah it's possible. The Talbott Sector had the few parts of the Solarian League with modern tech because for some reason they only ever gave new ships to the frontier sectors despite the Solarian League supposedly being super greedy and thus you think the good ships would go to the home systems or something. So all the good ships would be concentrated in a couple of places where they could more or less 'system hop'. And then they'd just annihilate the entire Solarian League fleet at once that they kept hyping up but it doesn't seem like it ever showed. Weber spills an awful lot of ink describing Battle Fleet as being massively arrogant and self-assured of their own superiority to the point where they completely ignored the Manticoran/Havenite wars and reports of the significant technological advances in warfare there. And the 'modern' tech deployed by Frontier Fleet and Mesa-influenced planets in the Talbott Sector came from Technodyne, which had been paying some modicum of attention to those developments.
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Jul 8, 2019 23:32
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Aerdan posted:Weber spills an awful lot of ink describing Battle Fleet as being massively arrogant and self-assured of their own superiority to the point where they completely ignored the Manticoran/Havenite wars and reports of the significant technological advances in warfare there. And the 'modern' tech deployed by Frontier Fleet and Mesa-influenced planets in the Talbott Sector came from Technodyne, which had been paying some modicum of attention to those developments. Yeah but it's still stupid and doesn't make sense in the slightest. It was part of the whole 'setting them up to be the paperest tiger to ever paper a tiger' thing I mentioned. If you have to make that stupid then why even bother? I guess that's in the end why they didn't even face the Battle Fleet and the Solarian League went down like superchumps. I mean, gently caress, by Weber's reckoning no one in the Battle Fleet was even ALIVE when the Battle Fleet actually had its victories, so why is everyone so confident in it?
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Jul 8, 2019 23:40
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Kchama posted:Yeah but it's still stupid and doesn't make sense in the slightest. It was part of the whole 'setting them up to be the paperest tiger to ever paper a tiger' thing I mentioned. If you have to make that stupid then why even bother? I guess that's in the end why they didn't even face the Battle Fleet and the Solarian League went down like superchumps. That's basically the whole point, though, and prior to the outbreak of hostilities I imagine both Manticore and Haven were, technologically, on par with the League. Weber's claimed that the only reason Manticore's even in shouting distance, technologically, with the League is the immense wealth their wormhole junction's given then, IIRC. The House of Steel tech bible/novella/whatever is a prequel that basically laid the groundwork for the main series, and particularly involved the development of the laser-head missiles that prove so decisive throughout the 'modern' series.
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Jul 8, 2019 23:55
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imo weber could have done more with the solarian league navy being paper tigers. the league is a huge decadent hegemony that hasn't had a major military or political setback in like a thousand years because they've got 10x the hulls, 50x the economy and 100x the population of anyone else. If anything they could be more comically stupid about it than they are in the books give us superdreadnoughts painted up in the gaudy heraldry of corporations sponsoring them, like they're in NASCAR give us SLN officers wandering around with jodhpurs and riding crops give us entire fleets that ceased existing 300 years ago but are kept on the books because some bureaucratic dynasty is pocketing all of the spacers' pay for people so terrified of bureaucratic bloat, the guys at baen don't have a lot of flair for presenting said bloat basically the solarian league Battle Fleet should have been the imperial navy from Dread Empire's Fall or err the austro-hungarian army from 1914 Kchama posted:
i dunno...the u.s. military hasn't defeated a serious opponent in a long time, why do we feel so confident in it there are a lot of really dumb pieces of worldbuilding in the honorverse, but i dont think the long-time hegemons being terminally complacent is one of them we would accept this trope in a fantasy or historical story where the local big dick empire is about to be smashed by steppe barbarians or something, its use in honorverse seems similar to me
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Jul 9, 2019 00:15
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Aerdan posted:That's basically the whole point, though, and prior to the outbreak of hostilities I imagine both Manticore and Haven were, technologically, on par with the League. Weber's claimed that the only reason Manticore's even in shouting distance, technologically, with the League is the immense wealth their wormhole junction's given then, IIRC. The House of Steel tech bible/novella/whatever is a prequel that basically laid the groundwork for the main series, and particularly involved the development of the laser-head missiles that prove so decisive throughout the 'modern' series. The thing is that even if it's the in-story excuse, that doesn't mean it natively makes sense. And that's a bald-faced lie as the only reason why 'Manticore is in shouting distance' is because the Solarian League are in a technological stasis and in extra-book sources he's more than implied that the fleets weren't even that good back then, they just hyped them up after they beat up much smaller fleets. And he uses the excuse for 'trade wealth' to literally justify everything, when you know what helps a lot too? Having lots of people to do work and research. PupsOfWar posted:imo weber could have done more with the solarian league navy being paper tigers. We've actually fought foes and defeated them in living memory though. And we also keep tabs on literally everyone, EVERYONE. And on top of that, it's not like we're sitting on our laurels or anything. Despite not having a 'serious foe' (as opposed to zero foes like the Solarian League) in over a hundred years, we still constantly work to advance our equipment and technology. To properly be the Solarian League, we'd need to still be using like, WW1 era ships, tanks, and weapons while Plucky Panama is fielding modern American equipment. Who is warring with Somali who is ALSO using modern American equipment but like a decade older. And be able to watch them and have people tell us (as established in the books!) that these people have technology a hundred years more advanced than ours, we just scoff and let the people stationed in Alaska have it and nobody else. The reason why the trope is much more acceptable in fantasy or historical stories is because in those kind of settings it is a lot more reasonable to have dudes you have zero idea about come out of nowhere and gently caress you up because you just never met them or got a good look at them before because they were mostly out of your sphere of influence. And it's not like the Solarian League doesn't keep an eye on the Haven and Manticore, as the Solarian League did tech transfers with Haven. It's just stated that the League looked at the new tech presented to them and disbelieved it was real so they could go back to sitting around with its thumb up its rear end. Like there's complacent, and then there's 'being brain-dead stupid in service of the plot'. EDIT: You can really feel how much these books ticked me off before I stropped reading, can't you? Kchama fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Jul 9, 2019 |
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Jul 9, 2019 00:43
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I feel like "interesting premise done well" would result in the genre not being what it is.
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Jul 9, 2019 02:57
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Arcsquad12 posted:I feel like "interesting premise done well" would result in the genre not being what it is. Probably. Like there's stuff that'd probably be MilScifi if it hadn't been so well realized. Like the Gundam novels as mentioned earlier. Like in that book it is the charismatic villain, Char Aznable, who does the Hard Decisions For Hard Men and he more or less hosed up every choice by going for the Hard Answer and the only reason why he has any followers is he does them anonymously.
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Jul 9, 2019 03:18
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Larry Parrish posted:Like the short story from Slammer's where the psychopath XO has himself assassinated because he knows hes going to forever taint Hammer's government after he seizes control of his homeworld is probably the happiest ending of one of those I've read and it's probably equally as low as most of the novels from the space sailing series get The XO survives that and appears in a later book as a regular trooper, so it's more along the lines of "faked his death so as not to taint the government". Whether this increases or decreases the happiness of the ending, I leave to you.
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Jul 9, 2019 04:03
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Kchama posted:
the solarian league has fought a series of brushfire wars, regime-change interventions and "policing actions" against hopelessly outmatched enemies, just like the usa has the (allegedly) more heroic solly officers in the torch series have this as their backstory - they've fought in a number of such conflicts and while the USA invests a huge amount of money into improving its military technology, a lot of those expensive projects are cost-inflated boondoggles that are only kept gong as jobs programs or financial alliances between staff officers and the defense industry monopolies that develop them. Which also sounds like something the solarian league would do basically the difference between the solarian league and the USA is that there is no irl manticore, because manticore doesn't make any sense
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Jul 9, 2019 06:08
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PupsOfWar posted:the solarian league has fought a series of brushfire wars, regime-change interventions and "policing actions" against hopelessly outmatched enemies, just like the usa has Also the fact that we legitimately improved ourselves even with those boondoggles. And the Solarian League is suppose to be many times bigger and richer. SOMETHING should be coming out of the Solarian League. Like I touched on it earlier that complacent or not, the thing that you're not gonna see complacent even with something like the SLN is internal rivalries. They wouldn't be letting the brushfire fleets be sitting around with brand-new super advanced fleets while the important guys sit around with 300 year old junkers. There's prestige in new, good-looking ships. You compare the SLN to the USA and that's a large part WHY we have so much advanced tech (along with expensive boondoggles) is that our top brass is interested in getting new stuff built to benefit themselves, and making their mark on the military. The SLN just... seems to only care when it'd make them look bad. Hell, they had a 'fleet modernization' thing called Fleet 2000 apparently very recently according to Weber where they replaced their fleets with shiny new ships full of 300 year technology and intentionally downgraded everything in order to make it look pretty, but nonfunctional, and outside of downgrading their ships every so often they have a strict One Hundred Year policy where nothing new can be built, designed, or even considered until a hundred years has passed since... the last time they decided to look at anything period. The difference between the USA and the Solarian League, beyond Manticore (and being nonsensical) is that the Solarian League actively screws itself over intentionally for no drat good reason, beyond it being needed for the Solarian League to be beatable, because Manticore needs a big but helpless foe to trample over. Kchama fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Jul 9, 2019 |
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Jul 9, 2019 07:08
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:e: also, C.M. Kruger you kind of scare me now. And also, *cough* can I use you as a search tool for other things? Just a process of elimination really, the keywords (vietnam, child soldiers, scifi) were enough to get close. FWIW there were a fair number of obviously unrelated results (eg a Forever War omnibus and a fantasy novel) that I figured the book called "orphanage" was probably more relevant. NoNostalgia4Grover posted:What's that....David Drake not working out his PTSD issues on paper? First thought to 6th and now 7th thought on this take were "Lies or maybe Larry Parrish just has a sweet spot for non-DavidWeber Aubery/Marturin stuff". Even Drake's Lacey stories, nominally about a Future detective-cop doing his job in FuturisticBigCity, were dark with an extremely, let me repeat that EXTREMELY hosed up main character in Futuristic-NotSaigon. His most recent non-RCN stuff has been a Arthurian-inspired YA-adjacent series. Kchama posted:We've actually fought foes and defeated them in living memory though. And we also keep tabs on literally everyone, EVERYONE. And on top of that, it's not like we're sitting on our laurels or anything. Despite not having a 'serious foe' (as opposed to zero foes like the Solarian League) in over a hundred years, we still constantly work to advance our equipment and technology. To properly be the Solarian League, we'd need to still be using like, WW1 era ships, tanks, and weapons while Plucky Panama is fielding modern American equipment. Who is warring with Somali who is ALSO using modern American equipment but like a decade older. And be able to watch them and have people tell us (as established in the books!) that these people have technology a hundred years more advanced than ours, we just scoff and let the people stationed in Alaska have it and nobody else. If you REALLY want the Solarians to be "the US" you would depict them as having this massive military force, that's been ground down by decades/centuries of continual combat tempo on small wars and peacekeeping, with funding for new weapons cut because "we're only fighting backwater pirates and political insurgents why do we need stealth missile pods?!?" and compromise designs adopted instead, with what they do have falling apart or being accidentally rammed into merchant ships/space stations by skeleton crews on their 18th consecutive hour of watch standing. Having them lead by a corrupt and barely sapient imbecile with depraved sexual mores would be about average for MilSF villains too.
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Jul 9, 2019 07:34
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C.M. Kruger posted:If you REALLY want the Solarians to be "the US" you would depict them as having this massive military force, that's been ground down by decades/centuries of continual combat tempo on small wars and peacekeeping, with funding for new weapons cut because "we're only fighting backwater pirates and political insurgents why do we need stealth missile pods?!?" and compromise designs adopted instead, with what they do have falling apart or being accidentally rammed into merchant ships/space stations by skeleton crews on their 18th consecutive hour of watch standing. And still having more and better ships than the rest of the universe combined while funding everyone else's military. Heck it'd be a lot more interesting if the Solarian League really WAS the sleeping giant and the actual problem was figuring out how to win or force a peace treaty before the Solarian League woke up and annihilated them. Instead of being decrepit losers almost anyone could have kicked over if they had tried. And PupsOfWar isn't wrong to compare the SLN to the US, since Weber does as well - he describes the Solarian League as the USA with Manticore being, in their view, France (though this is one of those views where it shows how out of touch Weber is, since apparently France isn't really that much better than a Third World Nation in his eyes) and Haven is... also France? I guess. And that's why apparently it's fine to ignore them forever.
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Jul 9, 2019 07:54
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for a guy who sees communist plots everywhere he sure focuses on weird places to fantasize about
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Jul 9, 2019 09:48
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I can't be the only person who remembers the Big Solarian Sneak Attack that Manticore knew about from the beginning of the book, right?
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Jul 9, 2019 12:54
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I can't be the only person who remembers the Big Solarian Sneak Attack that Manticore knew about from the beginning of the book, right? Which was telegraphed because the bureaucracy is about as airtight as a sieve, so Beowulf heard about it and told Manticore. This is even a plot point.
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Jul 9, 2019 15:08
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Kchama posted:And PupsOfWar isn't wrong to compare the SLN to the US, since Weber does as well - he describes the Solarian League as the USA with Manticore being, in their view, France (though this is one of those views where it shows how out of touch Weber is, since apparently France isn't really that much better than a Third World Nation in his eyes) and Haven is... also France? I guess. And that's why apparently it's fine to ignore them forever. Solarian League is bad USA (and UN and EU all combined) Haven post-revolutions is good USA
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Jul 9, 2019 15:15
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C.M. Kruger posted:Just a process of elimination really, the keywords (vietnam, child soldiers, scifi) were enough to get close. FWIW there were a fair number of obviously unrelated results (eg a Forever War omnibus and a fantasy novel) that I figured the book called "orphanage" was probably more relevant. Nice. Next challenge: find that supercut of classic Doctor Who killing dudes set to a rap dub. It had a title like 'the doctor has never killed ANYone'. Working on getting the Dawn of War 1 mega-chill laugh uploaded. Think it should be played whenever Weber gets discussed.
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Jul 9, 2019 16:08
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Aerdan posted:Which was telegraphed because the bureaucracy is about as airtight as a sieve, so Beowulf heard about it and told Manticore. This is even a plot point. TheGreatEvilKing posted:I can't be the only person who remembers the Big Solarian Sneak Attack that Manticore knew about from the beginning of the book, right? Look, the Solarian League isn't allowed to be good at ANYTHING EVER, okay? FuturePastNow posted:Solarian League is bad USA (and UN and EU all combined) Pre-revolutions it's suppose to be Welfare State USA, but it's totally also USSR and Revolutionary France! NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Nice. Next challenge: find that supercut of classic Doctor Who killing dudes set to a rap dub. It had a title like 'the doctor has never killed ANYone'. For a bit I thought you meant the Doctor Who Killing Dudes dub should be played whenever Weber gets discussed.
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Jul 9, 2019 18:20
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Nice. Next challenge: find that supercut of classic Doctor Who killing dudes set to a rap dub. It had a title like 'the doctor has never killed ANYone'. Either of these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmnPs64K74 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNuHV-iLBRw
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Jul 9, 2019 20:15
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C.M. Kruger posted:Either of these? This one. You are scary good at finding things online. Giving up on the promised Dawn Of War 1 Khorne laugh upload, at least with Youtube. Even after re-encoding the original file into a mp4 file, Youtube keeps rejecting it, because either it's too short (8secs), has crappy audio quality, and/or because there's also no visuals in it(which I have no idea how to embed in)....hence my growing apathy on the subject. Vaguely mil-scifi related: One of M John Harrison's more interesting standalone stories might also be tied into the Nastic War that occasionally cropped up as a weird reference, or minor plot in MJH's Kefahuchi Tract books. Now thinking MJH's Settling the World is a prequel to MJH's short story Coming from Behind, thanks to a recent re-read.
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Jul 10, 2019 04:39
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Since I have never read quality literature, I think we should have a nice long discussion about Grayson. Who is the worst nation in all of Honorverse, and it's because Weber loves them instead of hates them. I dislike them more than the slavery faction. Or the psychopathic anti-slavery faction. They are just that bad.
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Jul 10, 2019 06:34
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Yeah they're horrible. I cant remember how much is outright said by Weber and how much is just me misrememebring it but I hate that he managed to make Space Samurai Western Movie Texas into Nazis with women as property
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Jul 10, 2019 07:44
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Larry Parrish posted:Yeah they're horrible. I cant remember how much is outright said by Weber and how much is just me misrememebring it but I hate that he managed to make Space Samurai Western Movie Texas into Nazis with women as property They're clearly good, because they're being opposed by Every Negative Muslim Stereotype At Once That Is Physically Possible. And it's like super clear that we're just suppose to view 'women are second class citizens at best' as endearing and maybe even a good thing. And also I guess Weber really wanted an excuse to put Honor in a dress a lot, so she could be all girly and feminine for once instead of being Literally A Weber Male Character Except He Has To Remember the Right Pronoun.
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Jul 10, 2019 08:21
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I always pictured Masada as the Handmaid's Tale Planet rather than Muslims but that makes more sense in retrospect
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Jul 10, 2019 16:37
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FuturePastNow posted:I always pictured Masada as the Handmaid's Tale Planet rather than Muslims but that makes more sense in retrospect It says a lot about Grayson that Masada has to literally be the Endless Rape And Murder And Oppression Of Women planet to make them look acceptable. "We only OPPRESS women. With LOVE. That's totally different and way better."
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Jul 10, 2019 19:05
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If they were meant to be Muslims Weber did a bad job, because I thought they were Mormons. They come from Idaho for gently caress's sake, that's not exactly the number one spot on the Umrah itinerary.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:16
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tooterfish posted:If they were meant to be Muslims Weber did a bad job, because I thought they were Mormons. Well, Grayson are the Mormons. Masadans are the evil guys who think Grayson doesn't go far enough in repressing and oppressing women. And for some reason took their name from the guys who got sieged by Romans and committed mass suicide. Their gimmick is rape and terrorism. I do sometimes wonder if it's some THE JEWSSSSS thing because all the Grayson villains are very heavily Jewish themed.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:38
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Yeah, but they're an offshoot. They're very clearly Mormons too, just more cunty somehow. I think you might be telling us more about your biases than Weber's here mate. There's nothing specifically Islamic about Masada's oppressive culture from what I remember, it has a very American evangelical/puritan feel (they're also very big into Old Testament bullshit, so "Masada" makes sense. They see themselves as the righteous underdogs). Planet Handmaid's Tale is a pretty spot on description imo. tooterfish fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 21:51
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tooterfish posted:Yeah, but they're an offshoot. They're very clearly Mormons too, just more cunty somehow. I'm pretty sure what gave that impression is the fact that all the women were forced to wear burqas at all times, combined with the other stuff that mirrors negative stereotypes of Muslims but not Mormons. Like not being allowed to read, write, or specifically drive. Kchama fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 22:14
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All I know is that David Weber called me an idiot on his forum. It was about the Safehold books. So as you all probably know, the backstory of the Safehold books is that Earth and its colonies were this thriving space empire, until they run into these xenophobic, exterminationist aliens. The war goes badly for earth, and in desperation, they send this colony to Safehold, with the idea that its going to stay low tech for a while (so the aliens won't be able to pick up signals or signs of industrialization from space), and then it's going to modernize , build up its military and beat the aliens. Instead of doing that, though, the Colonial Administrator sets up the Non-Catholic Church, and puts a religious ban on industrialization. So I thought about it, and said, hold on, they were right to do that. The unified forces of Earth and all its colonies combined weren't enough to stop the aliens, and now you're hoping this one little planet can? They're going to build a coal power plant and a radio tower, and the aliens are going to find them and smush them. Their only hope is that they can hide well enough that they get overlooked, and the way they do that is by making high technology taboo. He didn't like that argument.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:27
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Epicurius posted:All I know is that David Weber called me an idiot on his forum. It was about the Safehold books. So as you all probably know, the backstory of the Safehold books is that Earth and its colonies were this thriving space empire, until they run into these xenophobic, exterminationist aliens. The war goes badly for earth, and in desperation, they send this colony to Safehold, with the idea that its going to stay low tech for a while (so the aliens won't be able to pick up signals or signs of industrialization from space), and then it's going to modernize , build up its military and beat the aliens. Instead of doing that, though, the Colonial Administrator sets up the Non-Catholic Church, and puts a religious ban on industrialization. It is a pretty big hole in the plot, yeah. Like he tries to get around it by claiming that the aliens never tech up themselves so they'll out-tech them and then destroy them. But of course the problem is that any time you get up to that level of tech, it's probably going to be detectable. And even if they pull it off, they're not going to have a lot of forces, more advanced or not. Really, the giant death satellite sitting in space and the super androids and their super spy network emitting poo poo everywhere is probably going to get them caught sooner rather than later. EDIT: Also it's not surprising that he called you an idiot. All of his Pearls of Weber, which are basically errata for his stories, generally involve thinly veiled contempt for the people asking questions that led to the Pearl of Weber.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:32
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The same sentiment that influences Islamic coverings is present in all Abrahamic religions. It wasn't too long ago that the average Christian woman and the average Muslim woman dressed very similarly vis head/hair coverings (they still do in many parts of the world). The burqa is an extreme interpretation of that, and the Masadans are extremists. I could be wrong, but I think you're reading way too much into it. edit: just to be clear, I'm not defending Weber or his lovely books. I'm just saying I don't think they're lovely for this particular reason, at least in this particular instance. He probably went loving nuts on Islam after 2001, I don't know. These books are a lot earlier though. tooterfish fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 22:40
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tooterfish posted:The same sentiment that influences Islamic coverings is present in all Abrahamic religions. It wasn't too long ago that the average Christian woman and the average Muslim woman dressed very similarly vis head/hair coverings (they still do in many parts of the world). The burqa is an extreme interpretation of that, and the Masadans are extremists. There's a reason why I specified a burqa and not a veil, and a full-body covering isn't a thing in Christian or Jewish nations, as opposed to just simple head-veils or scarfs like in more moderate Islamic nations. Masada requires all women to be completely covered in a burqa at all times that someone who isn't their husband can see them. Even in their own home. They're not allowed education, and in fact they have less power than their own male children. If it was just one or two things, sure maybe I'd agree (though the burqa kind of pushes it immediately), but all together he's definitely pushing for something like Taliban or Saudi Arabia. EDIT: Like I don't think you're defending his books so much as trying to claim I'm wrong, when in this case, I'm actually not!
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Jul 10, 2019 22:48
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Kchama posted:I'm pretty sure what gave that impression is the fact that all the women were forced to wear burqas at all times, combined with the other stuff that mirrors negative stereotypes of Muslims but not Mormons. no, American evangelicals want all that too
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Jul 10, 2019 22:49
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FuturePastNow posted:no, American evangelicals want all that too Now maybe, but they weren't so open about it in 1994. That was the time when Christians mocked Muslims for that kind of thing. The Masadans were pretty soundly defeated within a few books and were gone forever by 9/11 when Evangelicals lost their loving minds even moreso than usual. EDIT: By the way I don't disagree that they're a mish-mash of extremism in religion, but I'm just pretty certain the particular inspiration was Muslims rather than Mormons. Kchama fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 22:52
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Kchama posted:There's a reason why I specified a burqa and not a veil, and a full-body covering isn't a thing in Christian or Jewish nations, as opposed to just simple head-veils or scarfs like in more moderate Islamic nations. No, Halloween doesn't count. Kchama posted:If it was just one or two things, sure maybe I'd agree (though the burqa kind of pushes it immediately), but all together he's definitely pushing for something like Taliban or Saudi Arabia.
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Jul 10, 2019 23:06
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tooterfish posted:You never saw a nun? Neither have you, apparently, because there's a very striking difference between a nun's habit and a burqa. (It's the fact that burqas cover their entire faces with a little slit for the eyes, while a nun's habit leaves the face entirely exposed.) And while that may be true, it's possible Weber still hated them anyways. He always struck me as kinda clueless on the religious front. One of his Pearls of Weber talks about how Grayson's religion lasted so long because of its invention of denominationalism. EDIT: To be less snarky, I was more getting at that the FULL-BODY COVERING is what differs. Nuns just wear robes and then have a veil on their head. The general 'veil in other Abrahamic religions' weren't actually things that covered your face, or were transparent enough that could be seen through. Burqas are a giant covering that goes over your entire body and covers EVERYTHING. They are uniquely identifiable as a result, and distinct from stuff like habits. Which is why Masada using them along with the "Can't do anything, male children have power over adult women" comes off as a grab-bag of worse Muslim stereotypes. EDIT2: Oh, and because you made me remember, Masada's not from Idaho. The original founder of Grayson was born in Idaho, but none of the people who formed Masada were from Idaho, for various reasons. Just a clarification. Kchama fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 23:15
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Oh no, you made me remember how Grayson because a theocratic Monarchy after they exiled the Masadans. Because it had become clear that democracy had been what allowed the evil of the Masadans. Of course that's literally a thing.
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Jul 10, 2019 23:29
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I was referencing the full body covering. Because you said we weren't talking about the face covering. It's not hard to extrapolate an extremist Christian sect with oppressive apparel similar to the extremist Saudis, because the sentiment has a similar genesis (yes, I did just do that). I honestly don't think you need to look further than that imo. Masada's belligerence is also pretty Mormon. They started a fight, lost, and then made up a story about how they were the victims all along! That's classic Mormonism that is.
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Jul 10, 2019 23:32
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